as they would say back in the day,

because you are a Never Trumper, but you are still a Republican

-and a conservative. -Eh.

Does that still exist in this country?

Conservative more than Republican.

There's no Republican Party anymore-- it's dead.

Donald Trump killed it. Like, he's like a parasite

that ate its host form the inside out.

-(laughter) -It's over.

So I'm... I'm one of the small group of survivors

from... from the old school of limited government,

individual freedom and liberty, constitutional adherence.

You know, there's not... not many of us.

You could fit us around a table at a Waffle House most days.

-(laughter) -But, you know,

we're still sort of trying to hold the line in this...

in this very crazed era.

It's interesting that you say that,

because, you know, a lot of Republicans said that

before Trump became president.

You know, we had people like Lindsey Graham on the show.

We had people like, you know, Rand Paul on the show.

And they were all like, "No, this is what we believe in,

and Trump is not a Republican."

-Right. -He became president, and they were like,

"He's completely a Republican."

So how do you begin to convince Republican voters

that Donald Trump is not a Republican?

Or has he just redefined what that is now,

and is he the new conservative?

Are you now an outlier?

Well, those guys are what we refer to in the business

as liars and cowards.

-(cheering and applause) -They are afraid of Donald Trump.

-They still hate him. -Right.

They still think he is a... animated piece of excrement.

They do not love this guy. They are afraid of him.

And the few of us who are willing to call BS on him

and speak openly and speak publicly

and stand against him, you know,

we may be the last priests of a dying religion,

but we're gonna try to uphold it as long as we can.

He has broken the Republican party.

It doesn't believe in anything.

-Fiscal discipline, out the window. -Mm-hmm.

Limiting the size of government, out the window.

All these things that he...

that these guys all said were vital to them...

Follow the Constitution.

You know, Ted Cruz used to say he'd set himself on fire

if he didn't follow the Constitution,

and now he's like, "Yeah, whatev."

It-it doesn't matter at all to them anymore.

And so they have let themselves be so debased

and-and so utterly compromised

that-that they think we're the aliens.

They think we're the outliers. They think we're the wrong ones.

But I'm sorry, you got to call it like it...

like it really is,

and they have given themselves over to a cult.

It's interesting that you... that you say this,

because I-I do appreciate that you have not, like,

switched sides or anything, you know?

It's not like you've gone like, "No, I'm now a Democrat."

You're saying, "No, look, I'm still a conservative.

-I don't think Donald Trump represents our values." -No.

This book is interesting because you say,

"Running against the devil:

a plot to save America from Trump."

But then, interestingly enough, you say,

-"And Democrats from themselves." -Sure.

So, then, tell me what that means.

What advice do you think

you could possibly give to Democrats

even though you wouldn't exist in a world

where you would normally vote for them?

So, for 30 years, me and guys like me

built a very smart, very sophisticated system

to wreck the hell out of Democratic candidates,

and we did it all over the country.

Until Donald Trump came along,

there was a period of about 20 years

where we took almost 2,000 seats away

from the Democrats across the country

in state legislatures, in Congress, in the Senate.

We took over control

of 38 state governments and legislatures over that time.

We did it by being better at the root politics,

at the hard politics.

We did it by being willing to do things

that were very tough, right?

Running ads that were very tough

-and made people lose their minds. -Right.

And we did it by running candidates

who fit with their states and districts.

So, look, I helped elect

a Republican governor in Vermont four times.

Now, that is not an easy task.

But our guy wasn't a perfect Republican.

He wasn't a super hard right evangelical Southerner.

He was a guy who fit Vermont, and it worked.

And the Democrats tend to have

this thing of ideological homogeneousness.

They want everybody to be the same policy perspective,

whether you're in San Francisco or whether you're in Virginia

-or whether you're in Alabama. -Huh, that's interesting.

And, so, we were able

to put candidates out there who were not...

You know, they didn't fit every single ideological test,

-but we won a lot of seats that way. -Right.

So-so, are you saying, if I'm understanding correctly,

are you then saying that Republicans

have always played to win

-and Democrats play to be right? -Yeah.

Democrats play to win an argument.

I play to win an election.

I don't care how I get to the finish line, and I...

You know, except for breaking the law,

and occasionally you get breaking the law adjacent.

-But... -(laughter)

You want to make sure that you get to the goal line,

and sometimes that means not saying what's on your mind.

Sometimes that means saying, "Oh, well, look,

"our polling tells us Medicare for All

-scares the crap out of suburban women." -Right.

"But let's talk about Medicare for All,

because why would we need suburban women?"

You know, this is... The Democrats fall

into these traps that they build for themselves.

So, then, how would you... how would you break that, then?

What would... what would you say to a Democrat tonight?

Where you go like... These people are running,

and at some point, one of them

-is going to be head-to-head with Donald Trump. -Sure.

At some point, they're going to have to try and fight

for those 100,000 odd votes

-that swung the electoral college. -That's right.

Right? We've seen that it's not a numbers game.

-It's an electoral college game. -Mm-hmm. It absolutely is.

So, how would you then say to one of those people,

"Hey, this is how you can win

while still maintaining your Democratic values"?

Right. First off, win the game

before you try to start declaring the victory conditions

and start saying, "I'm gonna do 'X,' 'Y' and 'Z.'"

Ideological promises are a trap.

(clears throat) When you promise people something

and build a plan and a policy in modern campaigns,

that's an invitation for me to put my nerds to work

and look through your 600-page health care plan

and find ten things that scare the crap out of people.

-Huh. -And then I make ads about them,

and then you run for the hills, and you look...

You don't understand why people suddenly can't-can't...

They-they say things to you that you know

aren't quite true about your policy.

-Right, right, right. -Deeper and deeper in the weeds.

But the three things a Democrat has to do in this election...

They have to fight where the fight is.

The electoral college, whether you love it or hate it,

is the only game in town.

That's the only game there is.

So you got to fight in Wisconsin, in Florida,

in Pennsylvania, in Ohio, in Arizona--

in a handful of states.

The election is over in California.

I know how they're gonna vote.

I know how Mississippi is gonna vote.

Those things are done.

You got to fight where the fight is.

You got to put the resources, 'cause they will not have

as much money as Donald Trump unless it's Mike Bloomberg,

and then he has more money than God.

-(clears throat) -(laughter)

You've got to put it into the states that matter,

and then you've got to target in the states even more finely.

And they will target...

You know, the Democrats are smart.

They will be targeting those suburban women

-who are breaking away from the GOP. -Right.

-They'll be targeting those Obama-Trump voters. -Uh-huh.

-They'll be targeting those Bernie-Trump voters. -Right.

They'll be going after narrow slices,

'cause this is a game of small numbers.

It's not a game of big numbers.

The most important thing, though, is the refer...

The election has to be a referendum on Donald Trump.

It's not about policy. It's not about

your health care plan, your climate change plan.

All those are important, and they're lovely,

but it's a referendum on Donald Trump.

All reelections are referendums on the incumbent.

So, then, i-if I can say this,

'cause we're gonna have to wrap up soon,

but essentially, what you're saying

sounds really interesting, 'cause I...

I remember saying this when I first observed

-Donald Trump during the election. -Mm-hmm.

I said... And, I mean,

some people treated me like an idiot for saying it.

I said on TV, the one advantage he has

-is that he's playing TV. -Yeah.

So when he says, "Build a wall,"

it translates into whatever

people want to hear about immigration.

He doesn't give you the specifics

-about H-1B visas. -Right. That's right.

He doesn't give you the specifics

about what immigration numbers or policies...

He just gives you ideas.

Trevor, his whole policy fit on a trucker hat.

-(laughter) -You know, he...

-Right. -And... And you're exactly right,

because what he did

was play a reality TV character for 15 years,

and Americans thought, "Oh, this guy is smart,

decisive, good manager, good leader, good negotiator."

And so he just kept playing that role.

So, do you think, then, Democrats, maybe even...

if not now, need to get better at playing TV

for when they're running against Trump?

They absolutely... This is a reality TV game.

They need to be practicing that game.

It's not a debating society

in the democratic socialist conference.

It's a reality TV show,

and Trump is the master of the game.

They have a narrow path to victory,

and I hope that this book helps them

try to, uh, achieve that fairly narrow path.

Well, I'll tell you this. I wish I could disagree with you,

but I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

-Thank you so much for being on the show. -Thank you, Trevor.

-Appreciate it. -Really great having you here.

Running Against the Devil is available now.

Rick Wilson, everybody.