RON KLAIN, AND "NEW YORK TIMES"

WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT PETER

BAKER.

PETER BAKER, I DON'T KNOW WHY I

WAS SHOCKED BUT I WAS TO SEE

TRUMP GO AFTER FAUCI, AND IT IS

A SIMILAR PATTERN.

FOX NEWS PRIMETIME ANCHORS WARM

UP THE WATER FOR HIM AND HE

DIVES RIGHT IN.

ANY FALLOUT TODAY ON THAT ATTACK

AGAINST FAUCI'S TESTIMONY BEFORE

CONGRESS YESTERDAY?

>> WELL LOOK, I THINK YOU'RE

RIGHT, DR. FAUCI HAS CREDIBILITY

WITH THE PUBLIC THAT THE

PRESIDENT DOESN'T.

ALL THE POLLS SHOW THAT MANY,

MANY MORE AMERICANS TRUST WHAT

DR. FAUCI IS TELLING THEM THAN

TRUST WHAT THE PRESIDENT IS

TELLING THEM.

I THINK THAT FOR ONE THING IT

IRRITATES THE PRESIDENT AND FOR

ANOTHER THING DR. FAUCI IS THE

ONE SORT OF STANDING IN THE WAY

OF THE APPROACH THAT THE

PRESIDENT WOULD LIKE TO TAKE

WHICH IS A SPEEDY AND WHOLESALE

RE-OPENING OF THE COUNTRY AS

FAST AS POSSIBLE.

NOW, THE PRESIDENT HAS TO MAKE

DECISIONS BASED ON NOT JUST WHAT

ONE SET OF ADVISERS TELL HIM,

WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S AIDES

WOULD TELL YOU HE HAS TO LOOK AT

THE BIG PICTURE, THE WHOLE

PICTURE, THE ECONOMY AND THE

IMPACT ON JOBS, UNEMPLOYED, ON

POVERTY AND BUSINESSES.

THE PRESIDENT HAS TO TAKE ALL

THESE THINGS INTO ACCOUNT WHICH

IS PROBABLY TRUE OF ANY

PRESIDENT BUT DR. FAUCI AT THIS

POINT HAS CREDIBILITY THAT

NOBODY ELSE HAS AND IF PEOPLE

OUT THERE DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE

VIRUS IS UNDER CONTROL, THE

ECONOMY WILL HAVE A HARD TIME

RE-OPENING TO BEGIN WITH.

PEOPLE WON'T WANT TO GO TO WORK,

GO TO SCHOOL, GO SHOPPING, GO TO

RESTAURANTS.

SO IT'S CRITICALLY IMPORTANT, I

THINK, FOR ANY PRESIDENT IN THIS

SITUATION TO EARN THE TRUST OF

THE PEOPLE SO THEY CAN FEEL

CONFIDENT THE DECISIONS HE'S

MAKING HERE BASED ON THEIR BEST

INTERESTS.

>> RON KLAIN, I'M GUESSING

YOU'RE NOT -- YOU'RE SKEPTICAL

THAT HE'S MAKING DECISIONS BASED

ON PEOPLE'S BEST INTEREST, BUT

PETER BAKER IS RIGHT.

PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO GO BACK

IF THEY THINK THERE'S DANGER TO

THEIR LIVES OR THEIR FAMILY'S

LIVES TO DO SO.

THAT'S NOT A GOOD ECONOMIC PLAN

OR A PRUDENT FAMILY WELLNESS

PLAN.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THINGS ARE

RIGHT NOW WITH THIS TESTIMONY

TODAY FROM DR. BRIGHT WHO MY

COLLEAGUE, GARRETT HAAKE,

DESCRIBED PERFECTLY.

HE'S A GOVERNMENT TECHNO KRAT.

I W0RKDORKED IN GOVERNMENT.

YOU WORKED IN GOVERNMENT.

HE'S SOMEONE, TO THE DEGREE THAT

HE'S PARTISAN, HE'S A SCIENTIST.

HIS PARTY IS THE DATA.

HIS LOYALTY TO THE EVIDENCE AND

HIS FRUSTRATION IS THAT WE

DIDN'T USE THE EVIDENCE OR THE

DATA TO EDUCATE THE PUBLIC ABOUT

THE COMING PANDEMIC.

>> THE ECONOMY IS CLOSED TODAY

NOT BECAUSE OF TONY FAUCI BUT

BECAUSE OF DONALD TRUMP'S

INCOMPETENCE AND LAZINESS.

TONY FAUCI STOOD UP OVER A MONTH

AGO IN THE WHITE HOUSE BRIEFING

ROOM AND SAID HERE'S THE ROAD

MAP TO RE-OPENING THE ECONOMY.

THAT WAS GET THE NUMBER OF CASES

DOWN, GET THE TESTING IN PLACE,

GET PEOPLE WEARING MASKS.

TRUMP'S DONE NONE OF THOSE

THINGS.

IF WE'RE NOT RE-OPENING, IT'S

NOT BECAUSE OF ANYTHING TONY

FAUCI SAID.

IT'S BECAUSE OF DONALD TRUMP'S

FAILURE TO ACT ON THAT ADVICE,

INSTEAD TO BELIEVE HE CAN DENY

AND TWEET AWAY THIS PROBLEM.

THIS IS ON HIM.

RICK BRIGHT, I WORKED WITH RICK

BRIGHT ON THE EBOLA RESPONSE.

HE'S A CONSUMMATE PROFESSIONAL,

AND I THINK THAT WHAT YOU'RE

SEEING HERE, HIS TESTIMONY, IS

JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF HOW

WARNINGS WERE MADE AND WARNINGS

WERE IGNORED.

WE'RE IN THIS MESS BECAUSE THE

WARNINGS WERE GIVEN AND THE

ACTIONS WEREN'T TAKEN.

THAT'S BACKWARDS LOOKING,

NICOLLE.

THE PROBLEM IS RIGHT NOW THEY'RE

STILL NOT BEING FIXED AND THESE

PROBLEMS CONTINUE AND THAT'S WHY

WE'RE IN THIS LOGGER HEADS

BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT AND DR.

FAUCI.

>> DR. WEN, YOU HAVE WRITTEN

RECENTLY IN AN OP-ED THAT YOU

THINK WE'RE IN A DIFFERENT PHASE

OF THIS AS A PUBLIC, THAT WE'VE

MISSED A LOT OF THE

OPPORTUNITIES FOR CONTAINMENT.

TALK ABOUT WHERE WE ARE AS A

COUNTRY.

>> BACK TO WHAT RON WAS JUST

SAYING, WE ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT IT

TAKES IN ORDER TO RE-OPEN

SAFELY.

THE WHITE HOUSE OUTLINED THEIR

OWN CRITERIA AND GUIDELINES FOR

DOING SO.

IF WE KNOW WHAT IT TAKES AND

WE'RE KNOWINGLY IGNORING THESE

GUIDELINES, THEN WE'RE IN

ESSENCE SAYING THAT WE'RE GIVING

UP ON CONTAINMENT, THAT WE HAD A

CHANCE TO CONTAIN THIS VIRUS AND

SAVE LIVES BUT WE'RE NOT GOING

TO DO IT.

I FIND IT HARD THE SAY BECAUSE I

CAN'T QUITE BELIEVE THAT OUR

GOVERNMENT IS DOING THIS, BUT IF

WE ARE, THEN AT LEAST BE HONEST

ABOUT IT.

AT LEAST ADMIT THAT WE ARE

GIVING UP ON THE STRATEGY THAT

WE ALL THOUGHT WAS THE CASE,

THAT WE'RE GOING TO CONTAIN THE

INFECTION, WE'RE GOING TO TEST

AND TRACE AND ISOLATE OUR WAY

OUT OF THIS.

IF THAT'S NO LONGER THE PLAN,

LET'S BE HONEST ABOUT IT AND

LET'S MOVE ON TO WHAT WE KNOW IN

PUBLIC HEALTH TO BE HARM

REDUCTION.

IF THERE'S A BEHAVIOR THAT'S

RISKY AND WE DECIDED TO DO IT

ANYWAY, THE BEST THAT WE CAN DO

IS REDUCE THE HARM BECAUSE

THAT'S OUR LAST AND BEST CHANCE

TO REDUCE THE LEVEL OF

INFECTIONS AND SAVE LIVES.

I CAN'T BELIEVE WE'RE HERE BUT

SINCE WE ARE, LET'S TAKE THOSE

NECESSARY STEPS AND FIGURE OUT

WHAT ARE THE THINGS WE CAN DO TO

REDUCE RISK TO EMPLOYEES, TO

STUDENTS, TO EVERYONE SO THAT WE

CAN AT LEAST TRY TO PROTECT

THOSE AROUND US.

>> DR. WEN, YOU HAVE TO TELL US

WHAT THOSE THINGS ARE BECAUSE

YOU LOOK AT THESE PICTURES OF

PEOPLE FLOODING INTO THE BARS IN

WISCONSIN AFTER THAT STATE

SUPREME COURT OVERRULED OR

OUTLAWED THE STAY-AT-HOME

ORDERS.

WHAT ARE THOSE THINGS?

HE DESCRIBED HIS STATE AS THE

WILD, WILD WEST.

WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT REDUCE

HARM?

>> I WORRY WHEN I SEE THESE

PICTURES.

ACTUALLY, I SEE IN THESE

PICTURES POTENTIAL PATIENTS WHO

MIGHT COME INTO MY ER AND THEIR

FAMILY MEMBERS WHO THEY'RE GOING

TO BE INFECTING.

THIS IS ACTUALLY WHY WE RELY ON

THE CDC FOR THESE GUIDELINES,

THESE GUIDELINES THAT ARE NOT

YET BEING ISSUED.

WE RELY ON THESE GUIDELINES TO

SAY, LOOK, WE DON'T THINK THIS

IS A GOOD IDEA FOR RESTAURANTS

AND BARS TO BE OPEN, BUT IF

THEY'RE GOING TO BE OPEN, ARE

THERE SOME THINGS THAT WE CAN

DO, ARE THERE THINGS LIKE

CHECKING THE VENTILATION SYSTEM.

ARE THERE NEW STANDARDS FOR

EXAMPLE FOR PUTTING UP

PLEXIGLASS SHIELDS, FOR EVERYONE

TO WEAR MASKS AS MUCH AS

POSSIBLE, SPACING THINGS OUT SIX

FEET APART, START WITH OPENING

OUTDOORS SPACES AND THEN INDOOR

SPACES.

IF DAY CAMPS AND SCHOOLS ARE

GOING TO BE OPEN, EVEN IF IT'S

NOT THE RIGHT THING TO DO, HOW

CAN WE KEEP IT AS SAFE AS WE

CAN.

>> RON KLAIN, THERE'S A LITTLE

WAR OF WORDS GOING ON ABOUT WHAT

THE MEANING OF A PLAYBOOK IS,

AND YOU TWEETED THIS.

I'VE HAD PEOPLE TWEETING ME IN

THE LAST 24 HOURS.

DID THE PANDEMIC PLAYBOOK REALLY

EXIST?

WAS IT REALLY A CLEARLY MARKED

PLAYBOOK?

WOULD IT HAVE HELPED.

HERS THE COVER AND THE TABLE OF

CONTENTS.

YOU DECIDE.

PLEASE EXPLAIN.

>> THE OTHER DAY SENATOR

McCONNELL SAID THAT THE OBAMA

ADMINISTRATION HAD NOT LEFT A

GAME PLAN FOR THE TRUMP

ADMINISTRATION FOR DEALING WITH

SOMETHING LIKE THAT, AND IN

FACT, WE HAD LEFT A PLAYBOOK.

IT WAS EASY TO TELL THAT'S WHAT

IT WAS BECAUSE IT SAID ON THE

FRONT IN BIG RED LETTERS,

PLAYBOOK.

THEN IT HAD ALL THE STEPS YOU

NEEDED TO TAKE, 69 PAGES OF

STEPS OF WHAT TO DO WHEN THE

THREAT OF A PANDEMIC LOOMED.

NOW, WHAT'S INTERESTING IS,

NICOLLE, FIRST EVERYONE SAID NO

SUCH DOCUMENT EXISTED.

TODAY THE WHITE HOUSE PRESS

SECRETARY SAID THERE WAS THIS

DOCUMENT BUT IT WASN'T THAT GOOD

AND WE HAD OUR OWN DOCUMENT

WHICH CONTRADICTS THE FACT THAT

TRUMP'S POSITION UNTIL NOW HAS

BEEN NO ONE SAW THIS COMING.

NOW THEIR POSITION IS WE SAW IT

COMING, WE REJECTED THE OBAMA

PLAYBOOK, WE HAD OUR OWN

PLAYBOOK.

OURS WAS BETTER.

THE ONLY THING THAT'S CONSISTENT

IS THE EXCUSE MAKING FROM THE

WHITE HOUSE.

THEY'VE BEEN FIGHTING A WAR ON

FACTS.

THEY'RE NOW FIGHTING A WAR ON

FAUCI.

THEY NEED TO FIGHT A WAR ON