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  • The one thing I would have to have an immediate bias

  • was towards the Middle East.

  • I identify as transgender, non-conforming.

  • It's not often assumed that I am part black.

  • Do you think that being gay is a choice?

  • I can't be sure.

  • Who should police the police?

  • The citizens.

  • That actually scares me.

  • If I had to have a conversation

  • with my kids about this,

  • I wouldn't know pretty much where to start.

  • How I treat and talk to my children

  • is very much reflective

  • of the environment that they walk into every day.

  • I'm a lawyer by trade.

  • - I better watch what I say. - (chuckles)

  • I've been a cop for 20 years.

  • We must understand that how we've been weaponized,

  • you know, against the black community.

  • Hello, everybody, my name is Jesse Williams.

  • I want to welcome everyone joining us today

  • as we discuss bias, conscious and unconscious bias

  • and its impact on us personally and the collective.

  • I am here now because I feel like

  • we're experiencing a real opportunity.

  • The real opportunity is in the public consciousness

  • with all that's happening in the world and in our nation.

  • We are primed, I think, to accept the possibility

  • that maybe we have some room for improvement.

  • Maybe there are some things

  • that we can learn about ourselves and each other

  • that will allow us to grow forward.

  • So part of that is acknowledging conscious

  • and unconscious bias,

  • the roles that we might be playing

  • in this whole equation.

  • I think it's incredibly important for us

  • to face it, talk about it, be open to that possibly.

  • Everyone has bias, myself included.

  • It is a real issue and it's something that we can address

  • and just learn more about.

  • It doesn't make anybody inherently wrong.

  • It's something that's worthy of exploring.

  • So over the next few hours we're going to do just that.

  • We're going to watch a series of conversations

  • between complete strangers meeting for the first time,

  • and they're going to discuss not only themselves,

  • but issues that bring up

  • the concept of bias in their lives.

  • This might be uncomfortable at times.

  • It certainly has moments of discomfort for them.

  • It might for you as well.

  • Feelings could be hurt.

  • But that's part of the process.

  • That's how growth happens.

  • So amidst that discomfort,

  • these are all opportunities for learning for us.

  • So before we dive deeper,

  • I do want to acknowledge how we've come here today,

  • that can't do that without thanking Procter & Gamble

  • for spreading the word and spearheading this effort.

  • That also includes BuzzFeed,

  • who's allowing us to use their platform,

  • so thank you so much.

  • For years P&G has been using their voice

  • and acting as a leading advertiser

  • to shine a light on inequality,

  • highlighting bias in particular

  • with their recent work in the last couple of years

  • and sparking a dialogue to promote understanding,

  • to promote action.

  • So I'm not going to do this alone.

  • We are going to dial up the incredible Freddie Ransome,

  • who is a content creator,

  • has a lot of insight around bias,

  • and she's going to help us

  • walk through this whole experience

  • and be a great asset to us today.

  • Hey, Jesse, how are you?

  • I'm great, how are you?

  • I'm good.

  • I'm excited for what today's going to hold.

  • Just to give everyone a little bit more detail

  • about the ins and outs of this experiment,

  • we've paired 14 strangers together to talk about bias.

  • And these are real people,

  • they are here because they want to have dialog

  • and they want to experience some personal growth.

  • So please be respectful to them in the comments,

  • even if you don't agree on what they're saying

  • because we're all friends here,

  • we're all just here to learn and take in new information

  • or just sort of spread light and share light to each other

  • in regards to experiences and personal biases.

  • It's interesting when talking to new people or strangers,

  • I think folks can relate

  • to being at a party or a new gathering,

  • you just find yourself kind of pouring your heart out

  • to somebody you just met.

  • I think the idea that won't definitely follow you

  • in your social circle or your family events,

  • you've got a little bit of freedom

  • to just kind of unload something,

  • to explore something, experiment,

  • play around with ideas

  • without it being kind of attached to you

  • like this static cling

  • and you're going to have to be accountable for it later.

  • We all carry with us learned assumptions, presumptions,

  • we all are a byproduct of media

  • and marketing and information

  • and cartoons and commercials.

  • Also, now is a good time just to let folks know

  • it's not only Freddie and myself participating today.

  • We are really lucky

  • to have an absolutely brilliant professor,

  • Dr. Charisse L'Pree,

  • sharing her incredible talents and wherewithal.

  • Professional L'Pree is at Syracuse University

  • where she currently focuses on how the media affects

  • the way we think about ourselves,

  • exactly what we're talking about,

  • our perceptions of ourselves and others.

  • We've been working with her

  • to bring an added layer of context

  • and facts into this discussion,

  • those pesky things that are necessary.

  • Beyond just watching, we're going to be posting

  • discussion prompts in the comments,

  • so pay attention to those if you could.

  • This allows us all to be able to join the conversation

  • from an informed perspective.

  • So be sure to add your thoughts

  • and questions there as well.

  • This is a safe space, so please

  • don't succumb to any habits.

  • We've all been in comment sections

  • and we can see how it can get childish and ugly quickly.

  • Let's elevate today, let's make that a safe space

  • so we can constructive conversations.

  • And now, while we have paired strangers together,

  • they're not entirely random.

  • We intentionally went about this in a curated fashion

  • to encourage discourse beyond their echo chamber.

  • These have been really expansive,

  • long conversations

  • when we've paired these strangers together,

  • so we've naturally had to edit them down for time.

  • We did that in the most responsible way.

  • So in order to catalyze these conversations,

  • we have passed along P&G's award-winning short film

  • called The Look to all of these pairings

  • so that they can watch it together

  • and it can be a great way to spark conversation about bias.

  • Let's start with our first pairing.

  • We have Chozy joining us from Atlanta, Georgia,

  • and we have Lynn in North Carolina.

  • So we have them dialed up and meeting each other

  • for the very first time for an interesting conversation.

  • All right, let's do it.

  • Hello.

  • Hi.

  • How 'ya doing?

  • Well, I'm well today and yourself?

  • I'm going great, just excited about this experience.

  • Isn't this something?

  • My name's Lynn.

  • Lynn?

  • Lynn.

  • Hi, my name is Chozy.

  • Oh come on, no.

  • [sighs]

  • Um, I can definitely relate to the beginning,

  • getting the weird looks for looking different.

  • I can't believe this stuff

  • still happens and I know it does

  • and I cannot understand why.

  • [sighs]

  • Yeah.

  • We still judge each other on the way we immediately appear.

  • Where do you think that comes from?

  • The reason I think a lot of people think that way,

  • which is not only in the U.S., it's a global thing,

  • is just lack of interaction

  • with people that are different than you.

  • I am originally from East Jerusalem, Palestine,

  • and I came here in 2001, three weeks before September 11.

  • So, when I came here I was saying, "I'm Middle Eastern,

  • I'm Palestinian, I'm Muslim," and it is just who I am.

  • I didn't think anything of it.

  • So September 11 happens

  • and all of a sudden there is this hate

  • for anybody that looks Middle Eastern.

  • So if you're brown, you're going to be a target.

  • It doesn't matter if you're Arab, Indian, Hispanic,

  • mixed black and white, just dark featured,

  • and a lot of people got

  • harassed and attacked on campus

  • at Georgia Southern.

  • And I was like I'm not going to go out and say

  • that I'm Middle Eastern.

  • I'm going to have to dodge it, lie it, try to be a chameleon.

  • But it's hard to be a chameleon

  • when the majority is black and white

  • and nobody looks like me.

  • What I'm hearing you say is

  • that it comes from non-exposure

  • to different types of people

  • and they're visually different

  • and we have to judge immediately.

  • The one kind of group that you can see my ignorance,

  • I think when I thought about biases towards people,

  • the one thing I would have an immediate bias

  • was towards whatever I would call;

  • and you're right, it's ignorance, the Middle East.

  • Because it's different and so, as we've had more immigrants

  • and as I've been able to meet more people,

  • you see, my views change.

  • And this is the only way

  • that we can break down these conclusions.

  • It's kind of embarrassing here

  • to admit that I've had these biases.

  • It's embarrassing.

  • But I have not really been able

  • to interact very much with people like yourself, Chozy,

  • so I don't know how the universe knew

  • that you're the person I probably needed

  • to talk most to.

  • Yeah.

  • I've been in churches here when I came to the U.S.

  • and I've been to Baptist churches.

  • And I'm looking around and I see

  • this poster of a white person

  • that looks like Kurt Cobain from Nirvana

  • with blonde hair, blue eyes, on a cross.

  • And I'm like, "Who is that?"

  • And he's like, "This is Jesus."

  • And I'm like, "What?!"

  • Jesus is from Bethlehem.

  • Jesus was a Jewish person from Bethlehem in Palestine.

  • If you go to Palestine right now,

  • nobody's blonde hair, blue eyes.

  • I'm considered light-skinned.

  • People are a little bit darker than me.

  • Yeah.

  • I don't care what the Census says that we are.

  • I'm not treated like I'm a white

  • person when I come to America.

  • I'm accepted by blacks more than whites.

  • Where I grew up in Northern California,

  • there was a lot of dissension with black people.

  • We didn't even have anybody from Palestine or Jerusalem.

  • We didn't have Jewish people.

  • And I drove through the part of town that was black

  • and because I was white, they threw a rock at me

  • because they were angry.

  • And that was when integration was starting

  • and they would bring black children and white people

  • and white children together.

  • We're people and we're doing the best we can,

  • and it's not real good.

  • But if we keep talking about it and meeting each other,

  • and if I can see your pain,

  • and maybe you can see my embarrassment,

  • because that's just who I am

  • and I'm still trying to change.

  • Let me let you picture this.

  • Four hundred years ago you've been brought to this country

  • in shackles, enslaved.

  • Let's say they traded your people for money.

  • They gave you freedom,

  • but everything you ever built they will burn

  • and they always will make you

  • feel like you're the bad person.

  • So no matter what you do and how high you get in life,

  • you will still be that slave.

  • How would you feel?

  • Would you throw a brick at somebody?

  • [sighs]

  • I would probably try to burn everything down

  • because it's so unfair.

  • It's so unfair.

  • I really honestly feel if I had been at the scene

  • where George Floyd was being killed,

  • because I'm a little white woman,

  • I probably could have jumped in there

  • and they would have been busy, because I'm not a threat.

  • It's called, "white privilege".

  • The police don't see me as a threat.

  • I've been pulled over and let go and they've said to me,

  • "If you were black I'd take you in, but you're not."

  • How do we change this, Chozy, how do we do this?

  • People need to be aware of their white privilege.

  • During 9/11 I was walking back to my dorm.

  • I don't know what's going on.

  • I've been in America for three weeks.

  • I walk in.

  • I'm looking at the big TV in the lobby.

  • I see a building on fire, people jumping and chaos.

  • And I'm like, "Oh, this looks like back home."

  • Why?

  • Because we see this every day, this is nothing new.

  • So from that day on, Middle Easterners and Muslims

  • have suffered ten times more till this day.

  • And they burned mosques, they killed Muslims,

  • they banned Muslims from coming to this country.

  • Well, I thought this country is based on freedom

  • to worship any, you know, to practice any religion.

  • I'm very moved by your description

  • of exactly how you were treated, Chozy,

  • and the ignorance that makes me cry.

  • It makes me really embarrassed.

  • But things are changing, people are moving all over

  • and we need to help people like you change it.

  • Actually change begins with people like you

  • that are thinking about these issues,

  • but still not taking action.

  • The smallest action you can take

  • is, number one, surround yourself

  • with people that are different than you.

  • Number two, talk to people, your family,

  • know how to talk to them

  • with having a constructive conversation

  • that can have criticism and some defense and offence.

  • But we have to unite the people.

  • We have to put our differences on the side.

  • We can't just keep bringing biased and prejudiced

  • and racist things that keep dividing us.

  • I'm so moved by what you said, Chozy,

  • and I understand that the actions that I take

  • are to talk, to be aware,

  • but talk to people especially as I meet them.

  • Because I'm probably not at all what I appear

  • and I didn't tell the producers

  • that, you know, I'm gay.

  • And certainly I've had beer bottles thrown at me

  • and I have not wanted to bother anybody,

  • I just wanted to be left alone and be myself,

  • whatever that is.

  • And I've pretended a lot

  • because I can get away with pretending.

  • So you're with a woman?

  • Yes, sir.

  • Okay, so you didn't mention that

  • so I'm glad you mentioned that because

  • Well.

  • then you would have kind of experienced

  • a lot more of what we experience.

  • I never really said too much about it

  • because I just felt like it's nobody's business

  • and, honestly, I lied about it because I could.

  • I mean you can't see that I'm gay.

  • As I've grown and seen

  • the things that people have gone through

  • and the way that gay men were treated in the '80s

  • with the AIDS epidemic

  • and losing so many people that were my friends

  • and no one cared, it does make sense

  • that if I had really stood up

  • and copped to the whole thing and made a stand

  • and said, "No, you don't treat people this way

  • because these people are me

  • and if you like me, then you like gay people, right?"

  • But here in Hendersonville, North Carolina,

  • I've been actually legally married

  • and that is a form of acceptance.

  • And I have nephews and nieces who have grown up

  • and they don't think a thing about this

  • because of their exposure to people that were gay

  • and they go, "Well, so, what's the big deal?"

  • I thank you for sharing that with me

  • because that's part of who you are.

  • There's no way to see that or tell that,

  • so that was a pretty interesting twist

  • and it kind of changed the whole aspect of this call

  • because I knew then

  • I can definitely relate and make you relate mostly

  • to what I've been feeling and have empathy as well

  • for what you've been going through.

  • And I know this struggle

  • because I'm from the Middle East;

  • and we're not open for that.

  • And my cousin is gay.

  • He thinks he tries to make a noise about it

  • so he can get the equality and the freedom,

  • and I want you to do the same.

  • So I had this epiphany while you were talking

  • that this is how bias changes

  • is that you've had this conversation with me,

  • and maybe you'll be with somebody

  • or your family in one way,

  • and they'll talk about something.

  • But you've had this experience; you'll go,

  • "Well, you know there was this time

  • I talked to this woman,"

  • and believe me, if I see anybody from Palestine

  • it's going to be,

  • "Well, you know I talked to this

  • man and he was from Palestine

  • and he's in this country and this is how he feels."

  • I want to thank you, Lynn, for doing this

  • and I want to also thank you for sharing with me

  • and being able to listen and respond

  • and have a very healthy conversation.

  • Thank you.

  • Well, Chozy, I think the best part about talking to you,

  • while I'm sitting here realizing

  • that, oh, I just came out to the entire world

  • and I did because of you

  • and because of what you and the people

  • that produced you have been through

  • and you made me understand [gasps] the pain.

  • And you've helped me really immeasurably.

  • Look at all the things I said.

  • I owe that to you, sir.

  • I do.

  • How about that?

  • Go figure.

  • Thank you, thank you.

  • Thank you.

  • Okay, so that was Chozy and Lynn;

  • really a little plot-twist towards the end.

  • I know for me personally, when I was watching the video

  • I was not expecting her

  • to say that she was a part of the queer community

  • and that she's married

  • and has this whole other part to her story that we were

  • at least I was unaware of at the beginning.

  • So that was kind of interesting.

  • And I think also, kind of in real-time

  • this bias is sort of playing out.

  • It's like I'm thinking like, oh yeah, she's cis,

  • heterosexual, white woman

  • who, like you know,

  • probably hasn't really experienced a lot of turmoil

  • in terms of identity.

  • And that's just me making that assumption

  • and then to find out

  • that, oh, actually she has experienced this.

  • Okay, now I'm getting a better understanding of who she is.

  • Yeah, what was interesting to me

  • was how it impacted Chozy immediately.

  • It always makes folks feel more comfortable

  • having conversations with people who can

  • or are willing to understand them,

  • whatever that means,

  • and a big part of that is a shared actual experience.

  • Parents talking about how hard it is to have children,

  • they can relate to actual parents much better

  • than some single person with no kids, right?

  • Exactly.

  • It's really that basic.

  • So when Chozy thinks he's talking to somebody

  • who kind of fits all the dominant boxes,

  • most of them outside of gender,

  • to hear, well, you actually have to deal with identity,

  • with making yourself small, with making yourself quiet

  • with not always identifying yourself

  • in a way that would make you a target,

  • okay, we're actually on closer footing than I thought,

  • that makes me see you slightly different

  • or maybe feel more comfortable

  • expressing my experience

  • in a way that has a better shot of being received.

  • I think you watched Lynn certainly,

  • for lack of a better term, kind of mature and grow

  • and settle into her comfort zone.

  • Yeah, you love to see it.

  • And I can say, too,

  • I was really happy that Lynn was self-aware

  • in the fact and confident in admitting

  • that she lied about her sexuality for years

  • because she knew that she could.

  • She could sort of slide under the radar

  • as outwardly I guess presenting

  • as a straight, white woman

  • walking through the world.

  • And that was interesting because I think that

  • that sort of transcends in so many different scenarios

  • whether you can pass race-wise

  • or ethnically or in terms of religion, sexuality.

  • I think that we all could come to the table

  • with certain areas where we can pass

  • and we sort of use that for survival.

  • I don't necessarily think that it's that she's ashamed,

  • but a lot of times it's about safety.

  • So that's something that stood out to me.

  • A couple things that I clocked,

  • not because they were new but actually

  • because they're fairly common in my lived experience

  • is what bias can do is it can minimize or isolate

  • the experiences of others.

  • While Chozy explains some of his experience

  • in the discrimination that he goes through,

  • I mean can you imagine being a Palestinian

  • landing here three weeks before 9/11

  • in Atlanta, Georgia

  • [gasps]

  • the fear that he has?

  • How do you go out and get coffee?

  • Every day you're going out and you could possibly be

  • we saw hate crimes obviously skyrocket.

  • And as he described some of this,

  • you see what I've seen commonly

  • I imagine you have as well Freddie

  • is this kind of incredulousness

  • from your white acquaintance.

  • I had no idea, totally either blind

  • or reflectively presenting themselves

  • as blind

  • to the lived experiences of those around us.

  • Oh, no way, can you believe it?

  • I had no idea something like this would happen!

  • And so it's the combination of distancing,

  • minimizing that experience, whether consciously or not,

  • and then making the burden

  • of solving it on the person of color.

  • It's sort of the whole idea that racism is an issue

  • that the marginalized community has to solve

  • or it's like a black issue or an Asian issue

  • or whichever community that is.

  • And it is not.

  • It is a white issue, an issue of the oppressor

  • and of those with privilege and those in power.

  • Yeah.

  • All right, so let's move on to our next pairing

  • and it's going to be JC and Garnet,

  • both of whom are currently based in Arizona.

  • Hello?

  • Hi.

  • Hi, my name's Garnet.

  • I'm JC.

  • Hi, JC.

  • I love your outfit.

  • Thank you.

  • Where are you located?

  • I'm in Arizona. Where you at?

  • Oh, that's where I'm currently safer at home.

  • Really?

  • Yeah.

  • Now we're getting stared at.

  • Okay, now as this individual, I'm very nervous.

  • That was scary.

  • Yeah.

  • We're in court?

  • Are we the attorney?

  • I don't know.

  • Are we the judge? Are we the jury?

  • Oh, please let it be the judge.

  • Oh, thank God.

  • Yes.

  • [snaps fingers and laughs] [chuckles]

  • What got me the most

  • was the moment we were in the courtroom,

  • my mind thought,

  • okay, they're bringing out the defendant and it's his P.O.V..

  • I was viscerally relieved when that wasn't the case.

  • Yeah, automatically I'm like, oh my God, I'm nervous

  • and I'm nervous because I hope that this person

  • isn't going to get prosecuted for incorrect reasons.

  • So I think I was trying to compensate with like

  • I hope he's the judge, I hope he's the attorney,

  • I hope he's the jury,

  • so I could also like breathe a

  • sigh of relief from it as well.

  • I think that I'm not immediately

  • identified by other people,

  • especially people who are white.

  • It's not often assumed that I'm part black.

  • It's just assumed that I'm not white,

  • which is not quite the same especially now.

  • For most of my adult life, I had a shaved head.

  • I used to get extra security screenings, pat-downs,

  • taken out of line, questioned in the back room

  • with no windows all the time.

  • And I was basically being racially profiled.

  • And it wasn't because I was part black.

  • It was because I looked Middle Eastern.

  • And my mom said,

  • "You need to shave your hair."

  • My first instinct was like, yeah, that's a good idea.

  • And then my next reaction was,

  • no, that's the opposite of what I want to do

  • because that would mean

  • I would be taking one more visibly

  • at-least-part-black individual out of the situation.

  • And that's exactly what people who hate black people

  • want to happen.

  • They just want fewer black people around.

  • Yes, your hair is political! [snaps fingers]

  • - [laughs]

  • - And I can relate to a lot of what you were talking about.

  • I also traveled a lot

  • as a flight attendant for the past six years.

  • - Okay.

  • And I also was getting profiled

  • a lot as like Middle Eastern.

  • And I've had pretty serious altercation

  • with one pilot in the cockpit

  • that was treating me really horribly

  • and they basically were pinning me

  • to the inside of the cockpit door

  • and it was just so, so, so scary [laughs] to have that.

  • That's tough. I'm sorry to hear that.

  • I'm 25 percent black and I'm 75 percent white.

  • I'm not American, I'm actually Canadian.

  • But it wasn't until I arrived here in the U.S.

  • that people started to regularly

  • recognize the black part of me

  • and mostly that were other black people.

  • And so I started to— I would go get my hair cut,

  • I would always seek out like the blackest barbershop

  • because whenever I walked into a place like that,

  • there was never like, "Who's this beige guy?"

  • [chuckles]

  • "What's he about?"

  • They automatically were like,

  • yeah, this guy's part black and

  • he's part of this community.

  • I identify as transgender non-conforming.

  • I basically wake up and every single day

  • is a little gender-reveal party to myself.

  • [laughs]

  • Really?

  • Because I just like go with the flow.

  • I feel like today I'm like,

  • "I'm feeling more masculine, I'm feeling more feminine."

  • But when I would go to work

  • and have to wear a uniform with a tie,

  • I would purposefully find like one or two things

  • to "express my gender,"

  • whether that was the woman's purse or something.

  • And I would get constantly asked by coworkers like,

  • "Is that reallyare you allowed to do that?

  • They're not saying anything to you?

  • They're not writing you letters?"

  • And I'm like, "I'm wearing a bag, the same bag you have,

  • so whylike, no."

  • Yeah.

  • And it was really frustrating to have to constantly validate

  • my gender or like myself or even have to explain,

  • especially to folks

  • who didn't really want to be educated about it.

  • They were just sort of projecting

  • their own views onto me.

  • That would be really challenging,

  • definitely challenging.

  • I mean I was in my early 20s and I had a roommate.

  • And it was around that time

  • That I started to sort of come into

  • feeling out being part black

  • and wanting to embrace that part of myself

  • because, up until then, I hadn't.

  • I read Malcolm X's autobiography.

  • I even went and saw Louis Farrakhan speak.

  • I was just exploring.

  • And he kind of confronted me in

  • a way that I wasn't expecting.

  • And this is one of my best friends.

  • He said, "Why are you reading that?"

  • or, "Why are you getting into

  • all of this like black stuff?"

  • And I was like, "Well, you know, I'm part black."

  • And he's like, "Well, you're only 25 percent black,

  • so why don't you just get over it

  • and embrace the majority of yourself, which is white?"

  • And I was really angry

  • because the fact is that you only have to be

  • a little bit non-white

  • for people to see you as not white.

  • And that can really, for lack of a better word,

  • "color" your experience in the world.

  • Exactly.

  • When you are in white spaces

  • And you talk about your blackness,

  • how is that received?

  • That's a good question.

  • White people always want to ask

  • what my background is.

  • [gasps and laughs] Oh, God!

  • Yeah, same.

  • Where are you from?

  • You're like, "Oh, well, originally I'm from Calgary."

  • "Where are your parents from?"

  • - [laughing] - "Oh, well, my dad's from Calgary

  • and my mom's from Manitoba."

  • They're like, "No, but where are they really from?"

  • And I'm like, "Oh, I see, you're

  • wondering why I'm not white."

  • Because they want to get to what race I am,

  • where do I fit into their idea

  • Yep.

  • of who I should be or what I represent.

  • I understand exactly what you're saying.

  • Was there ever a time in your life when you found yourself

  • either suppressing a part of your identity,

  • whatever that may be,

  • in order to make a social situation or any situation

  • easier or more comfortable

  • for everyone in the room kind of thing?

  • I was like 12 or 13 years old

  • and I just wanted to be like a Manic Pixie Dream Girl

  • that sits on countertops and is cute and weird,

  • and I just wanted to be that for myself.

  • So I was expressing myself in that way

  • and I remember these men in my family

  • pulled me aside and they were,

  • "You're acting feminine and you need to like macho-up

  • because you're turning into like a young man,"

  • and blah-blah-blah-blah.

  • That's the way it felt,

  • oh my God, I'm doing something wrong

  • and this really hurts my family and I'm being shameful.

  • And that moment got internalized for years,

  • like 10, 14, whatever years.

  • Even if I'm trying to just change my diet,

  • I feel like I have to like almost

  • feel ashamed of my lifestyle

  • as I explain it to my family.

  • And it comes from just years and years

  • of never getting my needs met or being seen as who I am.

  • Mm.

  • Yeah.

  • And this might strike you as, I don't know,

  • I don't know how you're going to take this.

  • But a time when I've suppressed

  • something about myself is I like karaoke.

  • Yes!

  • [laughs] And when I was in Toronto,

  • I was a karaoke host for a long time, full time.

  • And the best place that I hosted at was a gay bar.

  • Yes.

  • And when I worked there,

  • I found myself inwardly embracing the fact

  • that maybe people thought I was gay

  • because I happened to be hosting

  • a karaoke show in a gay bar.

  • And I was happy about that.

  • This actually brings up

  • an important question that I think is relevant,

  • how do we consume and appreciate and amplify voices

  • that need to be heard without being appropriating

  • and/or gaining anything from it.

  • Because as an ally,

  • clearly I see you as an ally for LGBT community,

  • especially working and hosting in a gay bar

  • and being super comfortable in there.

  • But in what ways has your white passing experience,

  • how has that showed up for you?

  • I worked in a place

  • that was a very high-level, private-members club.

  • I don't even think there were any black members.

  • And I was witness to people talking about things

  • that were blatantly racist,

  • like telling N-word jokes and stuff.

  • I'm standing right there and I'm thinking to myself,

  • oh, they don't realize I'm part black.

  • And so at the moment, I just didn't say anything

  • because I didn't want to have that confrontation

  • in that environment.

  • I want to just do a quick little example I had

  • from when I was a flight attendant.

  • And I was in the back of the airplane and we were in flight

  • and all of a sudden I heard some music

  • or something happening in the cabin

  • and I instantly went to this black couple to go ask them

  • to turn off their phones or their speakers or whatever.

  • And when I went there they had nothing

  • and then I was like, "Excuse me,"

  • and then they just looked at me

  • and they're like, "What's up?"

  • And I'm like, oh my God;

  • I just did something that was super biased.

  • It just really showed me the bias that I had.

  • I was just so inappropriate.

  • JC, let me ask you a question.

  • Why do you think bias is dangerous?

  • I don't think bias itself is necessarily the danger.

  • It's not recognizing that you have bias that is dangerous.

  • That eventually trickles down to resentment and then to hate

  • and then to extreme actions that are just inexcusable

  • and dangerous for so many folks.

  • Do you think that knowing

  • that people have conscious and unconscious biases

  • do you think it's possible for people to overcome?

  • Not only do I think that it's possible

  • for people to overcome their biases,

  • I think people's lives depend on it right now.

  • People need to recognize their own bias

  • in how they can show up and fix those biases

  • for literally the survival of black people.

  • They can no longer just show up

  • by posting pictures on Instagram,

  • even walking in marches.

  • It's like do this now because it's

  • important right now in history,

  • but do this from now on and call it out when you see it

  • and call it out within yourself.

  • And also don't take offense to it

  • because you learned it somewhere,

  • but now you can unlearn it.

  • And after you do that,

  • you have the opportunity to change as well.

  • Well, and I think you're right.

  • And I think it's more important

  • to talk about, firstly,

  • our own bias, our personal bias,

  • because calling someone else's bias is easy to do

  • but it also creates confrontation.

  • But I think if people witness one another

  • acknowledging their own bias,

  • I think that will open up the ability for people

  • to have more sort of truthful, honest dialogue about it.

  • And it's sort of coming from the 'me'

  • rather than coming from the 'you'.

  • Yeah.

  • Well, I think this was a very interesting experience.

  • I want to come away from this dialogue

  • with a more open mind and open heart to strangers

  • and not automatically pass judgment on them

  • and just learn from them and see what they're all about.

  • My biggest takeaway is maybe how do we structure that?

  • And I actually think the video was helpful

  • in terms of opening up a dialogue.

  • It just really opened up the door for all these avenues

  • for our own experiences to come through

  • and it was really cool.

  • Yeah, if we're not that far

  • apart, maybe I'll bump into you.

  • [laughs]

  • Yeah, maybe I'll see you at the grocery store

  • or something. [LAUGHTER]

  • All right, bye.

  • Bye. [LAUGHTER]

  • All right, well, that quickly

  • became one of my favorite conversations of the day.

  • JC and Garnet spoke to a whole variety of things actually,

  • half of which that I can absolutely relate to

  • and trigger experiences of my own

  • in terms of ambiguity, in terms of race

  • and labeling and people's need to know what you are.

  • And I also learned a great deal

  • and appreciated JC kind of checking in

  • with Garnet about a couple of things

  • and talking about allyship versus appropriation

  • and how to be responsible and thoughtful in that process.

  • Yeah, I mean first of all, they were so cute.

  • It was such a pleasant conversation and I was like,

  • oh, like I hope they become actual friends after this.

  • Right.

  • Also, they're local so, yeah, it's actually doable.

  • Exactly, yeah.

  • And I think they were both incredibly respectful

  • and they had a lot of I think similarities

  • in some of their experiences of both living

  • or I guess sort of being ambiguous

  • in how they present gender-wise

  • and also, you know, racially.

  • So I think that this was a

  • really productive conversation.

  • Right, yeah, very much highlights ingroup/outgroup

  • and the role that that plays.

  • I mean folks are making comments

  • because that's how they feel.

  • And we often check our surroundings,

  • "boys will be boys" locker-room conversation

  • is probably different in the locker-room

  • with a bunch of cis jocks

  • than it would be at Thanksgiving dinner

  • with a whole panoply of other folks.

  • So we constantly check.

  • We have our inside/outside conversations,

  • ingroup/outgroup conversations.

  • There's a default to what are you?

  • And this is coming from somebody

  • who my entire life probably the most common question

  • that has been asked of me,

  • the most popular three words to me is,

  • "What are you?" since I was very little.

  • And it's in the first five sentences of many interactions

  • since I was little, "What are you?"

  • And what is that question?

  • Why don't we talk and you'll find out what I am,

  • because represent themselves through their actions.

  • But you need some kind of label in order to categorize.

  • It's not always ill-intentioned,

  • but it's definitely annoying.

  • And for both of these folks,

  • it was nice to see them have a shared experience

  • because they probably don't get it-

  • who am I to say,

  • but it's possible they don't get it very often.

  • Garnet certainly seemed like he doesn't often get to relate

  • to people on that level of what it's like to be ambiguous

  • and always need to be labeled.

  • There is also I think is worth mentioning

  • a difference between ambiguity

  • and looking like you're a person of "color"

  • versus being black.

  • Anti-blackness is so specific

  • and it's filled with such vitriol and tradition,

  • in this country at least,

  • that it kind of stands on its own.

  • And by "kind of" I mean definitely.

  • I was looking at some of Professor L'Pree's notes

  • and she was saying

  • that based on some very specific research,

  • it is proven that when strangers

  • are walking about in the world

  • and we are passing each other on the streets

  • and standing in line behind each other

  • at restaurants or et cetera,

  • like those who are ethnically ambiguous

  • get started at way longer

  • than those who you're able to easily categorize

  • and put in a box.

  • And I wanted to know like have you ever found yourself

  • when you're walking through the world

  • aside from because of the fact you're Jesse Williams

  • and you are well-known, but even before then,

  • have you ever experienced

  • really noticing people glaring at you

  • or knowing that someone

  • is really trying got figure you out?

  • Absolutely.

  • In my entire childhood coming up,

  • especially because I lived in entirely black areas,

  • entirely white areas, entirely poverty stricken' areas,

  • entirely kind of lower-middle class and big

  • and we have a lot

  • of very insulated pockets in this country

  • and I've lived in many of them

  • and have not fit in any of them.

  • So, yeah, I've been the object of that kind of staring.

  • And because they don't know,

  • derision often comes with that.

  • I resent the fact that you're making it harder for me.

  • It's worth noting also

  • just that JC rightly pointed out to Garnet

  • we should be thinking about how to be an ally,

  • how to be a productive ally

  • without appropriating culture

  • and making sure you are still your authentic self

  • without kind of dibbing and dabbing

  • and sampling cultures without actually having any interest

  • in the roots of their history and how they're impacted

  • initial a multitude of ways.

  • All right, let's go into another

  • one of our conversations.

  • This one is between Marlee

  • and she's talking to Renee.

  • Hello?

  • Hi.

  • Hi.

  • Hi!

  • Hi!

  • How are you?

  • I'm great. How are you?

  • Good, I'm Marlee, nice to meet you.

  • And I'm Renee, nice to meet you as well.

  • So I've seen that happen.

  • I mean even in L.A., as liberal

  • and progressive of a place

  • that we think we live in.

  • Well, it's nothing new to me, nothing to us.

  • And it's something that we've come to expect,

  • something that we experience a lot

  • and basically pretty much all the time.

  • And it's a shame because it's based on what we look like.

  • You could have all the degrees in the world,

  • but it has nothing to do with any of that.

  • You know, I went to high school,

  • there was like one black family in my hometown

  • and there was a lot of that happening.

  • It happens every day. You see it every day.

  • I found myself breathing hard.

  • My heart started beating fast

  • because it's so typical and it makes me angry.

  • When we go into a store,

  • it doesn't matter how well-dressed we are,

  • sometimes we're followed immediately, we're assumed.

  • And it bothers me, it really does.

  • And it's so unfair.

  • Yeah, I just want to say to that, Renee,

  • that I'm bothered for you and it makes me so angry.

  • There's so much

  • that I'm learning and unlearning that I realize

  • just being born white and with a certain privilege

  • and where I grew up

  • that there's so much that's just innate

  • or learned behavior that you're learning.

  • And unlearning and I'm trying so hard to just grow

  • and break the cycle.

  • And it's like I just hope that we can keep moving forward.

  • Marlee, you know what I appreciate.

  • And I think this is what touches my heart so much

  • is that at least there's a willingness.

  • And that's what I hear so much from you,

  • there's a willingness to listen,

  • finally a willingness to listen

  • when, for so many years, it seemed as though

  • if we mentioned something like that,

  • you know, the looks, the stares,

  • what are you talking about?

  • What are you talking about somebody looked at you?

  • For some reason,

  • we weren't believed and the curtain has been pulled back

  • showing the truth of our lives,

  • the truth of what we've had to experience for so many years.

  • It's so true and I was protesting

  • a couple of days ago downtown

  • and this black man stopped me and he

  • because we were holding "Black Lives Matter" sign

  • and he's like, "It starts with you guys

  • who are here willing to fight,

  • put your bodies in front of us and just like stand up."

  • Because I had a similar experience

  • and this is the only way I can relate where

  • I'm never going to understand

  • and I know that because of my skin color.

  • I am very androgynous

  • in the way that I dress and express myself

  • and I've gotten threatening looks and those vibes.

  • I know what you're saying

  • where it's hard to explain to people

  • like what are you talking about,

  • where I've felt threatened

  • because people are afraid of the unknown.

  • They're afraid of what they don't know,

  • so them trying to figure me out,

  • is she a boy, is she a girl?

  • I was followed into a bathroom last fall

  • because they thought I was entering

  • the wrong bathroom for my assigned gender.

  • And that was the first time I felt fear.

  • I was shaking, and I'm shaking just talking about it

  • because I was like who's this person to come in here

  • and tell me that I'm not using the right bathroom

  • just based off of how I look?

  • But I have that default of like I'm white

  • and, as scared as I was,

  • I didn't think they were going to shoot me.

  • I'm never going to know to that extent.

  • It's frustrating, you see on Facebook

  • and I have a mixed bag of progressives and conservatives

  • because of where I'm from

  • and there are still so many people

  • that it hasn't clicked in in saying "All Lives Matter."

  • It just shows me that we have a long way to go,

  • but you're right, it's a start.

  • Why do you think that they don't get it?

  • Is it because they don't want to

  • or do they think that we're less tan?

  • I wish I could understand that.

  • I think it's everyone is trapped in their bubble

  • and doesn't have enough exposure.

  • They don't have friends who are of color.

  • Yeah, you can be nice to someone a person of color,

  • but that doesn't mean you have racist thoughts

  • or, like in that video,

  • you're not going to roll up your window.

  • They don't see who you are at work

  • versus who you are

  • I know I'm a different person at work than I am here at home

  • with my girlfriend and my dog.

  • I feel sorry for them.

  • If they knew me,

  • they would recognize that I am a human being

  • just like they are.

  • They would recognize I'm a

  • child of God just like they are.

  • Why are we so hated in this country?

  • It makes me angry and it hurts.

  • And I have grandsons that I worry about.

  • (voice breaking) They're sweet as they could be.

  • And to have to worry about them

  • not coming home one day,

  • that's the hardest thing for any mother.

  • And then to hear George Floyd to call for his mama?

  • I don't have kids.

  • I would like to someday.

  • I was just wondering

  • if you could expand a little bit on that,

  • how that resonated with you

  • when George Floyd did call out for his mom.

  • I think that, as a mom,

  • I think that is the greatest joy I think

  • that I have ever had was to have children.

  • And it's just a miracle to me.

  • It doesn't matter what color you are,

  • the fact that you have this child

  • that you carried under your heart.

  • So I mean you would do

  • anything to protect that child.

  • To take it maliciously like that in front of people

  • and your child is begging for their life,

  • begging "I can't breathe," it's just unbearable.

  • There are no words, Marlee, there are just no words.

  • There's just so much I think

  • that we have to help people to understand.

  • How do you think you can, going forward,

  • help some people understand?

  • I think I just need to be more willing

  • to have these uncomfortable conversations,

  • especially with family.

  • It's so much easier for me

  • to not combat what they're saying

  • to make it easier for me.

  • But if I'm making it easier for me,

  • I'm not making it easier for you or people of color.

  • So I know that I need to start calling these people out

  • and it's a lot of energy, but it's worth the energy

  • if people are being murdered in cold blood.

  • Hey, Marlee, you said something

  • about when you're at work

  • that you hide your true self, something like that.

  • What was that about?

  • When I started working in the film industry

  • I work in the art department primarily

  • there was a lot of men, older men when I joined.

  • And I'm androgynous and I look like how most Cali boys look

  • with long blonde hair.

  • They would assume sometimes on my first day at a new job

  • that I was just some young guy.

  • There were some times

  • where I felt like I had to hush my voice

  • or not speak until spoken to so that they didn't hear

  • the tone of my voice or the high pitch

  • because I felt like they're going to respect me

  • first for being a man.

  • Like if there's something I don't know how to do

  • because I'm new,

  • they're not going to judge me like,

  • "Oh, because she's a young girl."

  • What made you decide that you wanted to be androgynous?

  • Looking back now

  • and like I said, since I've moved out here

  • there's been so much more that I've discovered about myself,

  • in gender, in being queer,

  • in playing on the gender spectrum.

  • I have this vivid memory of when I was little.

  • I remember my dad and my brother

  • were outside playing.

  • My dad was mowing the grass.

  • My brother and I were playing with the ball.

  • And they both had their shirts off.

  • And I kept pulling my shirt off and my dad's like,

  • "No, you can't do that."

  • And I just didn't understand why that was taboo.

  • That's how I feel now.

  • I've had so many issues with body dysphoria

  • and ways that I feel about feminine parts of my body

  • that I just now have discovered.

  • But looking back there's been incidences

  • that were always there.

  • And it was definitely difficult.

  • I was like the black sheep of my family.

  • I definitely got made fun of a lot

  • because people just did not understand that.

  • I've recently learned that the black LGBTQIA community

  • is disproportionately marginalized.

  • Do you have any insight as to why that is?

  • Well, you know what, Marlee?

  • You're going to have to do me a favor, okay,

  • because they keep adding letters to that.

  • So would you do me a favor

  • and break down the new letters, please?

  • Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender,

  • queer, intersex a-gender.

  • I came out as a lesbian when I was like 20.

  • I started to discover these parts of me

  • and realized it was always there,

  • but it was just kind of suppressed

  • because of the area that I grew up in.

  • Even my family, it was hard for them

  • because even though, like I say,

  • they're pretty progressive and open-minded,

  • it always comes down to, well, when it's your own kid

  • it's like a different story.

  • So I was just kind of circling back

  • just because I've been seeing so many parallels

  • in my own personal growth and struggles or obstacles

  • that I've had to face that,

  • like I said, it's not comparable

  • in a sense that I will ever fully understand,

  • but I think it's helpful in this

  • learning and unlearning process

  • of trying to draw your own

  • experiences as close as you can.

  • Back in the '60s,

  • we didn't really talk about that until I got older.

  • We didn't talk about those things.

  • Do you agree that

  • homosexuality is a sin or not, you know

  • The way I was raised in the word from adulthood

  • is that homosexuality in and of itself

  • the lifestyle of homosexuality is a sin.

  • And in the Bible it does say,

  • "That a man shall not lie with a man."

  • So according to the Bible,

  • the Bible says everyone has to live out their own salvation.

  • You are going to live your life

  • according to the way you decide to live your life.

  • I'm not going to judge you.

  • That's not my place. [laughs]

  • Do you think that being gay is a choice?

  • I can't be sure.

  • I really can't be sure because I don't understand

  • just like you say

  • that you don't understand what it's like to be black

  • and what you've experienced

  • and to be honest with you, they are not the same thing.

  • They're not.

  • Being homosexual and being black,

  • I can't even equate the two things

  • because they're not the same thing.

  • But my not understanding homosexuality,

  • I don't know if it's a physical

  • thing, a spiritual thing,

  • a psychological thing... I have no idea.

  • I can tell you that, for me personally, it's not a choice.

  • There's been times with people not understanding sexuality

  • or my gender where there's been so many times

  • it's like, if I just didn't feel like this,

  • of course I would choose the easier route.

  • I would choose being straight

  • because that's how society is more accepting.

  • I guess if we were ever able to meet in person

  • and you saw someone give me the discriminatory look

  • or made a comment to me about my identity,

  • would you stand up for me?

  • Absolutely, I would stand up for you, Marlee, absolutely.

  • No one has a right to discriminate

  • against anyone, anyone.

  • No one has that right.

  • Yeah.

  • And not just me, but I guess or someone like me

  • or especially people in the black LGBTQ community.

  • That's right. No one has that right.

  • Thank you.

  • It's just crazy that we've never even met and don't—

  • and people are going to think this is like a plug,

  • I'm like we've never met. - [laughs]

  • - But already just in these two hours

  • I feel so connected to you

  • because you have been so open and willing to hear

  • things that I've struggled with

  • and I'm just beginning to only learn of the things

  • that you've struggled with.

  • But you've been willing to listen and learn

  • just like I'm willing to listen and learn.

  • And it's just really refreshing.

  • It is refreshing.

  • And I think that's the bottom line.

  • I think we have to be open and willing to listen and learn.

  • It doesn't mean that we're going to agree on everything.

  • Right. [LAUGHTER]

  • - Awesome. - Thank you. Take care.

  • - Talk soon, bye. -Bye!

  • So that was a really unique conversation.

  • They were both really respectful.

  • I think it was productive.

  • I think from jump initially when Renee was explaining

  • sort of her reaction to watching The Look

  • and saying

  • she said she found herself breathing hard

  • and her heart started beating quickly,

  • once they entered the courtroom,

  • it's so interesting

  • because I completely relate to those feelings

  • when I'm in those types of uncomfortable situations.

  • It's like this visceral

  • these body reactions that I get

  • that are subconscious and I don't realize that,

  • oh my gosh, I'm actually soaked

  • because I was sweating out of nervousness

  • for walking past this cop or something like that.

  • And even Marlee brought up

  • that she also experienced that

  • when she was walking into the restroom

  • and realized that she had been followed into the restroom.

  • And then her body just had this reaction

  • because it's just like this very specific reaction

  • that I would be so curious to know

  • like white people who check off

  • all of these boxes of power,

  • do they ever really experience these body reactions?

  • Sometimes I think we get into a bit of a suffer-off,

  • like a competitive suffering,

  • like measuring who's had it worse.

  • There is a difference between saying,

  • "I can relate to having that feeling,

  • I've gotten that feeling

  • when this has happened in a coffee shop."

  • But it's different than saying,

  • "I know exactly what that's like."

  • What I did appreciate was when Marlee was explaining

  • her experience of having those body reactions

  • and a little bit of fear when she realized

  • that she had been followed into the restroom

  • was that she said that she was really scared,

  • but she acknowledged that she wasn't scared for her life,

  • which is a key difference in I think the two experiences.

  • And I think that it was really beneficial

  • and productive for her to validate her feelings

  • and acknowledge that this is how she felt

  • in those moments, but that it is also not the same.

  • Yeah, that's exactly how it should be done.

  • You can have a relation to

  • you can let somebody know they're seen

  • without making it equal.

  • And I thought it was interesting in Renee's answer,

  • if I have this right, Marlee asked about how she'd feel

  • "Renee, how do you feel?

  • Do you think that it's a choice,

  • do you think that it's a sin?"

  • And if I have it correctly I feel like Renee answered

  • not from the outside how she thinks,

  • but what she was taught.

  • Taught.

  • Which that shows itself in other conversations

  • that we're going through today too is a bit of a pivot

  • from really receiving the question

  • kind of flush but saying,

  • "Ah, well, what I was taught was this."

  • Which is fine, it's important to know,

  • but it's not the answer.

  • It's not really confronting how

  • I feel and I wonder why that is.

  • Renee is very similar

  • to a lot of the older black women in my family.

  • - You know what I mean? - Sure.

  • Who are still trying to figure things out

  • and me having to explain

  • what non-binary is and all of these things

  • to the older black folks in my family.

  • So it's one of those things that can be frustrating

  • if you're not willing and open to learn.

  • Totally.

  • Especially, in fairness,

  • that is an ever-changing world of nomenclature

  • and I don't want to put people off from being curious

  • with this kind of cancel culture, that was offensive,

  • because I want folks who are absorbing this

  • to feel like they can ask questions.

  • Find a way to do it respectfully.

  • Maybe don't go "they keep" just saying,

  • "Hey, I feel like I may not be updated."

  • Yeah, I think in general my takeaway

  • from Renee and Marlee's conversation was that it was

  • more of sort of like that generational push and pull

  • based on keeping up

  • with what's happening in the LGBTQ community

  • and also what's happening in the black community.

  • Renee as a mother, really touching as a mother

  • and being concerned that your child will return safely home

  • and won't be killed or beaten

  • at the hands of those in privilege and in power,

  • a.k.a. the police.

  • So I think there were a lot of different topics

  • that were touched on with this conversation

  • and I kind of wish it could have gone longer

  • because I think that there was a lot more to unpack,

  • especially on Renee's end in learning more about Marlee

  • and the queer community and things of that nature.

  • Yeah, I would add I think that Renee, even after the call,

  • I would hope that she sits with the challenges

  • that were put before her,

  • the difference between what I was taught

  • and what I actually think.

  • And maybe you don't know what you think in that time

  • because now you're actually faced with somebody.

  • All right, Jesse,

  • so our next pairing will be Judy who's based in Texas,

  • and Martin who's based in Illinois.

  • This one was a doozy.

  • [LAUGHTER]

  • Stop what you're doing and watch this video.

  • Please watch this one, you guys.

  • I think it's important not only because of what happens,

  • but because we know folks with a lot of these perceptions

  • and we know the impact they can have.

  • So without further ado, we give you Martin and Judy.

  • Hello.

  • Hi.

  • How you doing? Judy, is it?

  • I'm Judy. What is your name?

  • I'm Martin.

  • A little bit of background about me.

  • I'm married. I've been married since 2002.

  • I have four boys

  • and they range in age from 34 all the way down to 8.

  • How old are you?

  • Now you're getting personal.

  • No, I'm 54.

  • You don't look like you should have a 34 year old.

  • Oh, no, no. I'm 54 years old.

  • - What? - I'm a grandfather.

  • Yes, the whole nine.

  • Oh, that's pretty cool.

  • What's your story, Judy?

  • I'm 53 and I have two daughters.

  • Well, it's a pleasure meeting you.

  • It's a pleasure meeting you.

  • Hmm.

  • I didn't like what I just saw there, but okay.

  • That wasn't very nice either,

  • them closing the elevator door on my man.

  • That's life in America.

  • Because the first thing you see when you see me

  • is a black man.

  • You have no idea what my educational background is,

  • what my financial background is, what my upbringing is.

  • So, all you know is that I'm black.

  • The first thing you see when I walk in the door.

  • I can honestly say

  • the only time I was ever afraid of being in a car

  • and pulling up my window was

  • I don't know what you call it in Chicago.

  • I think Cabrini-Green.

  • But it was out of safety.

  • Other than that,

  • I've never really been afraid of black people

  • and I've always given everyone the benefit of the doubt.

  • But I don't look at things like that.

  • I have a lot of black friends.

  • You just gotta, I don't know.

  • You saw it in the film.

  • This guy's a judge.

  • He's probably brilliant, probably has money,

  • more money than both of us.

  • But yet, they looked at him

  • almost like he was a second-class citizen.

  • And that's what I mean, life in America.

  • I think like, just, what hurts me

  • is seeing a lot of black people

  • hurting their own people.

  • Do you see any of that?

  • Well, I do see that.

  • But always remember this, Judy.

  • People hurt the people that they live around.

  • So I also know from statistics

  • that white people hurt and kill

  • and fight other white people in their areas

  • because that's who they're around.

  • So, when I hear about black-on-black crime,

  • I get it because I see it.

  • I'm right outside of Chicago.

  • But I also know if you go into certain areas

  • where there's predominantly white people,

  • they hurt each other, too.

  • If you were in a situation where

  • someone pulled a gun on you,

  • no matter what color, and you pull your gun out,

  • is that trying to protect yourself

  • or is that you trying to kill somebody?

  • No, that's self-defense.

  • You see, the problem what

  • the reason why we're probably on this line right now

  • is because what you've seen

  • and I'm sure you've seen on the news

  • if you've talked to your black friends

  • and they really talk to you,

  • then you'll know that there's black people unarmed

  • that are being killed by police.

  • Sometimes it's unprovoked.

  • Sometimes it's just because

  • the police officer "feared for his life",

  • but there was really nothing to fear.

  • You know, because the person was unarmed.

  • Like, if you look at what happened to George Floyd

  • or look at Eric Garner or look at Jonathan

  • I could go on a laundry list of

  • black people that were killed

  • that were unarmed.

  • And I always say,

  • "Well then damn, that could have been me."

  • The problem we have as black people,

  • we can't have a bad day with the police.

  • You know, I can do like you could do.

  • You could say, "Hey, get the hell out of my face, you pig.

  • Why'd you pull me over?"

  • You could do that and get away with it.

  • I've seen it.

  • I can't do that.

  • The minute I even say, Judy,

  • if I say, "Well, why'd you pull me over?"

  • "You questioning me? Get out the car."

  • I've seen it.

  • It's like they're waiting for me to say the wrong thing

  • so that they could do the wrong

  • thing and this thing escalates.

  • That's why I always use that term, de-escalation, Judy,

  • because it doesn't have to get that way.

  • What I'm learning is right, wrong or indifferent;

  • no one is respecting the police force.

  • There's some bad ones in

  • there, but they're not all bad.

  • So, what's kind of scary for me is going forward,

  • who wants to join the police force?

  • They're damned if they do and they're damned if they don't.

  • You know, George Floyd.

  • He had a laundry list of bad crimes.

  • Trust me and believe in me,

  • that guy should not have done what he done.

  • What I don't like or what I don't agree with

  • if you don't mind me saying and help me understand this,

  • is to use him as a martyr.

  • We never said that George Floyd was our hero.

  • We just know that he died needlessly

  • and this death was the catalyst

  • that sparked this movement.

  • He wasn't combative.

  • He was subdued.

  • He was already in cuffs and surrounded by police officers.

  • Yeah, and he was on drugs.

  • Well, see he could have been on a lot of drugs,

  • but when you saw him at that point

  • where that officer's knee was on his neck,

  • there was no struggling.

  • Sure.

  • There was no wailing or hidden fighting.

  • He was already in cuffs, correct, Judy?

  • Absolutely.

  • Okay.

  • And this is why and I'm not getting on you

  • because I hear this all the time.

  • Whenever one of us dies

  • at the hand of the police or a vigilante,

  • we'll come up with something

  • that Trayvon Martin smoked reefer

  • or Eric Gardner shouldn't have been selling loose cigarettes.

  • You'll hear every type of way to justify those deaths.

  • And that's why I'm going, you see my thing to you is,

  • even if he was on drugs.

  • I think some people are under the impression

  • that we're idolizing some of these people

  • as heroes when we're not.

  • We're really more focused on the incident

  • and the injustice of the incident

  • then the person, their background, how it happened

  • versus kind of why it could have happened

  • or what their background was

  • because to us it's two different avenues.

  • My question to you is, what do police officers do?

  • And not in this case,

  • because obviously this guy and he's charged with murder

  • and that's the way it should be.

  • They are up against a lot of bad people.

  • And now they're afraid to defend themselves

  • because as soon as they do, they're ridiculed for it.

  • All we want them to do

  • is give us the same opportunity to surrender

  • and comply that they do with white people.

  • Let me give you a couple of instances.

  • If you remember, a guy named Dylann Roof

  • shot up nine black people in a church.

  • They took him to Burger King alive.

  • The Aurora killer who killed the people in the theater,

  • they took him alive.

  • I got a young man by the name of Tamir Rice,

  • 12 years old in Ohio.

  • They pull up on him within less than two seconds, Judy,

  • that 12-year-old young man was dead.

  • So, my question is,

  • well, how did you not give him a chance to comply?

  • "Get on the ground, throw your weapon down."

  • You could have did that from the PA.

  • So, all we want is the same respect

  • and the same type of compassion

  • and a chance to surrender.

  • Give me a chance to at least go,

  • "Sir, I'm not doing anything.

  • Let me live and I can plead my case."

  • I understand what you're saying.

  • I think that the examples that you're using,

  • you're giving me a few.

  • There are more examples of black-on-black crime

  • than what you're giving me right now.

  • Wow.

  • And it's true.

  • Black-on-black crime is over the top.

  • I can give you all type of examples if you want me to.

  • I feel if they can stop doing that to each other,

  • I truly believe things would be better.

  • I wanted to interject because I've said this to people

  • and I want to get your take on it.

  • Black people know that gang bangers, drug dealers

  • and thieves kill and rob people.

  • We don't get when police do it.

  • You see? That's the difference.

  • Like, if you want to talk about black-on-black crime.

  • I got you. It's a problem.

  • It's an issue, but I don't expect a police officer

  • to be that gun wielding and shooting me down

  • like the gang banger did.

  • Like, I can't win.

  • I'm going to be honest with you.

  • I didn't see the whole thing.

  • It was disturbing enough

  • what the first police officer did.

  • I'll say this.

  • The other police officers should have said,

  • "We have him. He's under cuff, let's go."

  • That's wrong in my mind.

  • What they did was wrong.

  • Like, they should have stopped him

  • and put him in the court system to defend himself.

  • I believe that.

  • But I also believe

  • that not every white cop out there is a bad person

  • and only wants to kill black people.

  • Like, I don't believe that.

  • I think they try to do their job

  • and it's gotten a lot difficult to do that

  • because of these situations.

  • So, I understand that,

  • but I also know that they need to step up like you just said.

  • If they see a wrong doing, they need to step up.

  • What you're seeing on the news is the filming of it.

  • There's a bunch of black people getting beat up, killed,

  • choked out and abused

  • that you will never see because it wasn't taped.

  • But this has been going on for decades.

  • We've been being beaten and locked up for no reason

  • and the whole nine.

  • But now we're seeing it more on tape.

  • There's always an epidemic or a protest or something

  • right before an election.

  • I think that has something to do with it.

  • Black people are getting killed all the time.

  • It doesn't happen just in an election year.

  • When Sandra Bland or Trayvon Martin

  • or Eric Gardner or Freddie Gray.

  • Like, these things are happening

  • every several months, right?

  • You see it on the news.

  • So, it has nothing to do with an election cycle.

  • This just happened to happen at, you know, during this time,

  • but what's to stop something from happening in October,

  • right before the November election?

  • - Oh, it's going to. - It makes no sense.

  • You know why it's going to, Judy?

  • I absolutely believe it will.

  • Because it happens so often,

  • we can almost predict it'll be another video that comes out

  • at some point of somebody getting dragged around

  • or beaten around.

  • Why now? Like, why?

  • Because there's no excuse now.

  • But it made even white people say,

  • "He was not resisting arrest. He was already in handcuffs.

  • There were multiple cops around."

  • This was the one that you couldn't deny.

  • Like, you could go, "Well, Trayvon this.

  • Eric Gardner wasn't in cuffs, yet.

  • Rodney King wasn't in cuffs, yet. They were still a threat."

  • That's all I hear.

  • All I hear from my counterparts, white people,

  • they always can find a way to say,

  • "Well, you know, he bad guy."

  • With this one, even though George Floyd might have had

  • a background and history,

  • when he was being killed as you even pointed out,

  • he was subdued on his stomach, in cuffs, surrounded.

  • He wasn't going anywhere.

  • So, for him to die that way,

  • even the majority of everybody who saw that tape,

  • I don't know too many people that wouldn't agree with me

  • because at the end of the day if you're unarmed

  • and you weren't really a threat, you should be alive.

  • So, if they look me up and I'm driving and they pull me over,

  • they're going to find out I have a concealed carry permit.

  • Okay.

  • How do you think they should interact with me at that point?

  • Do you have a concealed weapon on you?

  • Yes or no?

  • You say, "Yes, sir, I do. It's right here."

  • Okay, you're being honest. They're being honest.

  • Hey, Judy, you remember Philando Castile?

  • Philando Castile was in another Michigan resident,

  • had a concealed carry permit.

  • He's not even driving.

  • His girlfriend's driving.

  • Tells the cop, "I have a concealed carry permit.

  • When I reach inside this glove compartment, you know,

  • you're going to see the weapon,

  • but this is where my insurance and registration is."

  • He opens up the glove compartment,

  • cop puts one right into his heart.

  • - And he was honest and open. - There's a bad one.

  • See, but that's our thing.

  • Like, even when we're honest and open

  • and totally transparent, we catch it.

  • Okay, let me ask you a question.

  • Who should police the police?

  • The citizens,

  • the same people that are putting mayors in their seats,

  • chief of police in their seat.

  • All you have to do is get what we call a citizen's panel.

  • It doesn't have to be a ton of people.

  • It could be six or seven people from different backgrounds

  • and let them look at the different scenarios

  • and say, "Okay, I think we got a bad egg here."

  • Scenarios, background, education.

  • Like, you just want some ordinary citizen

  • to start policing the police?

  • Don't those same ordinary citizens

  • act as jurors in the courtroom?

  • That actually scares me.

  • What scares us is a prosecutor

  • who works with the police

  • every single day to prosecute crimes,

  • now calling himself being unbiased and neutral

  • policing that police officer that killed my son.

  • Because of course you're not really neutral.

  • You're not non-biased. You work with guy every day.

  • You guys do coffee, go bowling.

  • How do I know you're going to give me justice for my kid?

  • We gotta do better. We can do better.

  • We just gotta figure out the system to put in place

  • to make and hold people accountable

  • and force them to do better,

  • because we can't keep doing this. We can't.

  • I agree.

  • What I got out of this whole conversation

  • is two people both believe things are wrong or right,

  • things need to be fixed.

  • And I believe we had a really good conversation.

  • And coming up with a good solution

  • from learning from Martin.

  • Yeah, and I feel that this conversation

  • was beneficial also because now I get a chance

  • to kind of see where people are coming

  • from outside of my community.

  • And I want to thank Judy

  • for her time taking part in this conversation,

  • being open and honest with us because it was great.

  • Thank you, Martin.

  • I agree.

  • It was really good.

  • Nice to meet you and hope to talk to you again.

  • Nice to meet you, too. It was a pleasure.

  • - Thank you. - You, too.

  • I don't know where to start with this one, Freddie.

  • I think that there is a whole lot to unpack here

  • and I am, you know,

  • grateful for the opportunity.

  • Because I think we checked a lot.

  • This conversation checks a lot of the boxes

  • that are... on popular belief

  • and on websites and comment threads.

  • So, firstly, I would like to point out we all know it.

  • The go-to distracting move

  • when talking about putting its boot on the neck of citizens

  • if those citizens happen to be black is the ever-distracting,

  • what about black-on-black crime?

  • I would say that whenever you're on a topic in a conversation

  • and the other people needs to change the subject,

  • they are conceding the point.

  • Yes.

  • As Martin rightly points out, crime is proximate.

  • Okay?

  • People eat, drink, worship,

  • often work in proximity to where they dwell.

  • So, there's that 85 percent of white people are killed

  • by the hands of other white folks.

  • There's very little difference in terms of those stats.

  • Again, George Floyd's murder as they were talking about,

  • there was no black-on-black crime involved.

  • You're just as effective talking

  • about how ham sandwiches are made.

  • She also, I want to know what you think about the default,

  • "I have black friends" move.

  • Classic, classic.

  • What does that mean?

  • What does that mean?

  • When do we employ that?

  • When we're talking about sexual assault.

  • Oh, well my sister is a woman.

  • That has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

  • Is there some early elements of the conversation

  • that stood out to you?

  • Before we even jump into this,

  • I just want to say how important it is to really see

  • some of these conversations play out in real time.

  • Yeah.

  • Because you mentioned echo chambers earlier

  • and how we all are sort of you know

  • are inundated with our own echo chambers.

  • And it's all down to like who we follow on Instagram,

  • who we follow on Twitter, our news sources.

  • Like, everything is pretty much

  • like in line with, I think, our worldviews.

  • And so you know when you see things floating around like,

  • "Well, what about black-on-black crime?"

  • And, well, "You know, he was on drugs

  • so that's why it was okay," you know, things like that.

  • Those are all just kind of

  • like whispers in the air for me

  • because I don't surround myself with people

  • who speak that way or who talk

  • about these topics in that way.

  • So, to see it play out in real

  • time like this with Judy and Martin

  • was honestly really enlightening to me.

  • It was very triggering, you know,

  • throughout multiple parts of the conversation,

  • but I was like wow, like these really, you know,

  • people really have these beliefs

  • and are passionate about them.

  • It's not only like, "Well, I don't really know the answer,

  • but like this is what I think."

  • It's like, no Judy was very, very confident in her outlook

  • and on her view with these scenarios.

  • And so it was just, you know, it was really interesting

  • to also watch Martin

  • so gracefully, you know, give his point of view.

  • If I took anything from this conversation,

  • it's just how to beit was how to graceful and patient.

  • This is a perfect example of the role that bias can play

  • and the connective thread between a simple bias

  • and the loss of life and violence upon someone else.

  • If I am predisposed, if I have been taught,

  • indoctrinated is a better word,

  • to believe that black people are more prone to violence,

  • black men are more prone to violence,

  • they're more likely to be criminals,

  • which is to say less worthy

  • of the rights which they are promised

  • and pay taxes for and its woven

  • into the fabric of this nation.

  • If they're more likely to be violent,

  • then when I see an example or really not see anything.

  • When I hear somebody on a comment thread

  • say they had a criminal history,

  • I'm more likely to make that pathology

  • to be violent offenders

  • when in the history of the world

  • clearly there is no one close

  • to as violent as the white male or white society.

  • It's not even close.

  • When you hear a new word,

  • you start hearing that word everywhere.

  • So, you're antennas only up for specific dog whistles,

  • specific catch phrases, specific terms and visuals.

  • So, she has this little mini-box of five clichés

  • and three sentences that just rotate.

  • Well black-on-black crime.

  • Well, that doesn't apply here.

  • Okay, but he had drugs in his system and he did crime before.

  • Okay.

  • Give me a list of crimes that are punishable

  • by spontaneous public execution.

  • There are none.

  • We have system of law and order.

  • You said we should follow it.

  • We should let the system take its course.

  • Why aren't we doing that when their skin is dark?

  • When white violence doesn't count,

  • but black violence can be amplified at any moment,

  • when black life never matters

  • because its value can be snatched away

  • in a second with a Tweet,

  • but white value is perpetual because its best effort,

  • it always has value whether you're shooting up a school

  • or a church,

  • you're given the benefit of the doubt.

  • It's a really tough mountain to climb

  • and Martin did an excellent job trying.

  • But I'm glad that we have this conversation on display

  • where you really have to be open

  • at the beginning of a conversation

  • to learn something.

  • Yeah, absolutely.

  • And I think, too, Professor L'Pree had sort of flagged

  • the term "aversive racism"

  • which I think is really evident in this conversation

  • with Judy and Martin which is aversive racism

  • is the lack of contact with a group

  • creates stereotypes, right?

  • And so, I think it's pretty clear that like, you know,

  • Judy says that she has black friends, right.

  • That does not mean that she has made a habit

  • of surrounding herself with people who are unlike her own

  • in order to learn and sort of break down

  • some of those stereotypes throughout life.

  • So, you know she was saying that after The Look,

  • after they watched The Look

  • she was saying, "You know, I've never rolled up my windows

  • or locked my door except for when I was in Cabrini-Green."

  • Safety.

  • Yeah, for safety, right.

  • And I think, too, white people really like to,

  • instead of saying black neighborhoods,

  • they'll say, high-crime areas

  • which is just code for black neighborhoods

  • because of redlining

  • and because of the history of this country

  • in really segregating these communities

  • in ways that black people specifically cannot control.

  • So I think that was something that really stood out to me.

  • There was just so many points.

  • You know, I think that we could talk about this conversation,

  • you know, for hours

  • because there's just so much to unpack here.

  • But I think Martin did a really

  • good job of drawing parallels

  • to white criminals and how they're treated

  • versus how black suspects are treated.

  • And I think one of the quotes that stood out to me the most

  • was, "Give us a chance to surrender",

  • like they did Dylann Roof.

  • I want to just try to put it concisely

  • what Judy is a real example of...

  • is how your bias can come to any case

  • and remix and repurpose the entire experience.

  • If my bias for an unarmed, handcuffed man on the ground

  • is, "Well, he was violent."

  • Yeah, but not this time.

  • "Well, he had a history."

  • Yeah, but that wasn't part of this.

  • "Yeah, but he could have."

  • If you're lobbing, we weaponize our bias.

  • It gives a pre-checklist instead

  • of actually being present

  • and letting that person be a human being.

  • It really is worthy of examination.

  • And we have folks just like her in our family,

  • a lot of us do.

  • And that is where there's a real opportunity

  • to break some new ground here because what are you without,

  • as Toni Morrison said, "What are you without your racism?

  • Are you any good?

  • Is there a reason you're hiding from it?

  • What are you without it?

  • What if we can actually just talk about these individuals?"

  • That's the challenge.

  • So, for our next pairing, we're going to be joining Eric

  • who's based in Florida.

  • And Danielle who's based in Illinois.

  • And you guys, I was really nervous going into this one,

  • so tune in.

  • Hi, Eric.

  • Hi. Hi, Danielle.

  • I just saw your name pop up there.

  • How are you?

  • I'm great. How are you?

  • I am well.

  • So, what do you do for work?

  • I am in education.

  • So, I teach at a law school and I'm a lawyer by trade.

  • Oh, so I gotta watch what I say.

  • - No, that's awesome. - No. Please don't.

  • That's awesome.

  • I've been a cop for 20 years.

  • Okay.

  • So, my least favorite place is the courthouse.

  • Don't feel intimidated by the space.

  • Oh, please let him be the judge.

  • [chuckles]

  • Now, I love it.

  • That gave me chills. I like that.

  • I was taken by this black man

  • kind of going about his everyday life

  • and experiencing what I would call micro aggressions

  • just from the look.

  • And people automatically having certain opinions

  • or thoughts about that individual.

  • And, you know, changing their demeanor

  • because of just seeing him as a black man or black person.

  • You see that happen.

  • You know, people who drive through neighborhoods

  • and lock the doors.

  • If you lock them because it's a high crime area, okay.

  • If you lock them because you see somebody just walking,

  • totally different.

  • You know one thing that troubles me, Eric,

  • sometimes is seeing the different ways

  • in which officers have handled black offender,

  • I guess I'll call it an offender.

  • A black offender versus a white offender

  • and how white offenders can,

  • you know, honestly cut the complete fool

  • and still be arrested where, you know,

  • black folks just don't have that kind of experience.

  • And they end up harmed often and sometimes dead.

  • It's not acceptable what the

  • officers historically have done,

  • but I also, looking at the sheer number of encounters

  • you know that hey, not all of them are bad.

  • Eric, what is it like to be a police officer right now?

  • It's horrible.

  • Because we get judged

  • and this is going to sound very familiar,

  • by what others have done.

  • I understand as a police officer

  • this is kind of, you know, this is unfortunate.

  • You know, one of the things I would say

  • about the George Floyd situation

  • is there were officers that were surrounding him, right?

  • And none of those officers did anything.

  • And I'm not saying that every one police is like that

  • but what I am saying is

  • it seems like when officers see something wrong,

  • there is this kind of code of silence.

  • Like, you know, I'm not going to do anything about it.

  • And I think that also impacts

  • the perception of police officers.

  • If more officers said,

  • "We will not stand for this. This is not acceptable.

  • We do not want to perpetuate discrimination.

  • We don't want to perpetuate racism.

  • That is not who we are and what we are about

  • as opposed to kind of holding on to that themselves."

  • But not stepping up and, you know,

  • and breaking that code of silence.

  • Oh, I agree.

  • I think some of the things

  • that stop officers from saying something

  • is that if the person they observe doing it

  • is a senior officer,

  • they think well I'm a junior officer, what do I know?

  • Or if they're of higher rank,

  • well, one day I want to be to their rank

  • so I want them on my good side.

  • When these type of horrific events

  • go on in other parts of the country,

  • we talk about it because the best thing we can do

  • is to not have it happen to us.

  • But it's to talk about, well, why did this happen?

  • How can we keep from this happening here?

  • So, regarding the incidents around George Floyd,

  • I haven't seen enough to say, of the entire video to say

  • that officer did that to that man because he was black.

  • What I've seen was an officer who had a subdued subject

  • who was not flailing around on the ground,

  • keep his knee and obstruct his airway

  • from what I observed

  • and there was no need for that.

  • I hear you and understand the perspective of the department,

  • but I would just— I really challenge that

  • because I think that, you know, we're talking about bias.

  • And people have biases and police officers have biases.

  • I just find it hard to believe

  • that had he been a white man

  • or even a white and certainly a white woman,

  • the officer directly involved with the knee on his neck

  • as well as the officers that were surrounding,

  • that were standing there looking on

  • would have handled it that way.

  • Can you imagine that officer

  • having his knee on a white woman's neck

  • like that for 10 minutes?

  • That would not have happened, right?

  • I'm going to tell you,

  • I agree that do I think that I would see it

  • as a white lady and the officer knee?

  • No. I agree with you.

  • But you look at the Orlando police sergeant.

  • She was a black female.

  • She got murdered by a black suspect,

  • but there was no Black Lives Matter movement for that

  • and that's what frustrates me is you don't see

  • the outcry of police officers getting shot and killed.

  • And sometimes I scratch my head and I wonder.

  • I'm like why is that?

  • People have kind of misunderstood

  • that Black Lives Matter was an affirmation directly related

  • to black people being killed by the police.

  • If you are an officer and that is your line of work,

  • there's a potential

  • that someone you know may harm you,

  • may kill you whether they're black, white of what have you.

  • But the expectation in terms of on the flipside,

  • if you are a citizen

  • is that you will not be killed by the police.

  • You know, like you said.

  • We sign up.

  • We put on a badge, a gun

  • and we go to the work with the expectation to come home,

  • but the reality is you may not.

  • And a large part of me feels extremely sad

  • that the Black Lives Matter movement

  • has got intertwined with rioters because that's not it.

  • There's a big difference

  • between protesting and rioting.

  • You know, black folks are an oppressed community.

  • And we've been oppressed

  • for the 400 years that we've been here.

  • And, you know, slavery, all kinds of policies

  • that negatively affected our lives

  • and our abilities to live the American dream.

  • People have to understand the history

  • to really understand why those feelings are so deep seated.

  • When I think about, you know, what happened in Tulsa

  • and what happened in Rosewood where, you know,

  • black people who were sustaining their communities

  • and were thriving economically

  • were bombed and slaughtered by white people.

  • We have to keep in mind all of these experiences

  • so when you're looking at these people out there

  • who are protesting peacefully, who are rioting,

  • who are looting,

  • I think that it's all a combination

  • of just that frustration

  • however it went down,

  • it's gotten the attention that its needed to get.

  • So, I know that I'm anti-looting,

  • but I'm pro-protesting.

  • Okay, so why loot?

  • And I said, okay, because I've heard people say,

  • "We'll they're stealing,"

  • the looters are stealing

  • from the communities which they live in.

  • And then I saw something else that said,

  • "Property can be replaced, lives can't."

  • So, then that got me thinking.

  • So, if I'm a looter, other than just personal greed,

  • I'm stealing from a store.

  • The store typically has insurance.

  • So, the store will be made whole,

  • but I'm getting my media attention like you said.

  • I'm getting, you know,

  • I'm getting noticed whether it's good or bad

  • I'm getting noticed.

  • As much as I don't agree with it,

  • the insurance companies pay out.

  • Well, if you're paying out more money than you're bringing in,

  • that's a problem for business.

  • That's a problem for the COOs, the CEOs and who runs them?

  • Typically powerful white men.

  • How do they get in business?

  • Who do they know?

  • Typically politicians.

  • So, do I try to look at as that, that a looter is saying,

  • "This is the only way

  • I can get the powerful person's attention,

  • white, black, Hispanic, typically white,

  • if you look at the makeup of congress,

  • this is how I get their attention."

  • Do I agree with it? Absolutely not.

  • Have I tried to understand it? Yes.

  • That's great that you have tried to understand

  • and just broaden your perspective on it.

  • The recourse that people have to change unjust systems

  • is protesting, advocating, doing policy work

  • and trying to get to the root causes

  • of some of these issues,

  • so people are in the streets.

  • They're angry.

  • They're rioting because they're trying to get awareness

  • and attention to this issue

  • because for so long they've gone

  • through these different kind of measures of change

  • and recourse without action really being taken

  • or without action taken to the extent that it needs to be done.

  • To tell people how they should protest

  • and what they should do and what's appropriate

  • and what's not appropriate I think is out of line.

  • This country was founded by people who protested.

  • You know, the Boston Tea Party and all of these things,

  • they looted and tore things up and so on,

  • you know the feeling of desperation,

  • the feeling of not having is what pours

  • into the looting part of it

  • or the rioting part of it.

  • One of the things I'd love to see

  • is not just, hey we're here and we want change,

  • but what is acceptable.

  • Now the new thing is the disbanding and defunding

  • of police departments is the pushing.

  • What does a real reform look like?

  • What does defunding a police department look like?

  • The core that is about money.

  • Since we're paying them, we want accountability.

  • If money from policing is diverted to education,

  • you know, wouldn't that be helpful for the police?

  • I like that because it makes me go,

  • okay so it's maybe not a hundred percent a bad thing.

  • What can I do to say this is a step in the right direction?

  • One thing is just kind of

  • being educated on these issues.

  • You know, there's all kinds of ways to address,

  • to learn about bias because we all have them.

  • And there are not more officers

  • that are stepping up to say no.

  • This is not how these

  • situations should be addressed.

  • And this is, you know,

  • this is a result of, you know, a bias or whatever it is,

  • but officers taking on this issue.

  • I agree that you have got

  • to have a sense of this is the job you want to do.

  • Don't let anybody call anything into question.

  • Do the right thing all the time.

  • Thanks, Eric, for this opportunity

  • and joining in this very important conversation

  • that needs to be had.

  • We need that.

  • We are all dependent on each other for, you know,

  • having some actionable things take place.

  • We know that there is a process

  • that needs to get started.

  • But what I can tell you is I certainly appreciate you.

  • You represent the City of Chicago very well

  • so they should be very proud because I am a better person

  • for spending the last couple of hours with you.

  • Thank you, same here.

  • So, one of the first things that jumped out at me

  • in this conversation just at the outset,

  • I just want to have a through line

  • that several of these other conversations we have seen

  • this through line of one of the participants reacting

  • to The Look video

  • by mentioning whether they like it or not,

  • whether they agree with it or not.

  • And man, Eric really took me on a journey there sometimes

  • where my assumption based on what he does for a living

  • as a Deputy Sheriff

  • or maybe just the direction of his language sounded

  • like he was going to land somewhere

  • but he kind of took us on a ride

  • and actually had been quite thoughtful about,

  • he kind of took us through behind the curtain

  • as to how he processed things and weighed pros and cons

  • in an interesting way that was a little more fleshed out

  • than I think folks often do.

  • So, I actually appreciated

  • that a couple of times in the conversation

  • around has he broke down the rationale

  • or end result of so-called looting.

  • Yeah, yeah.

  • I think, too, something that jumped out

  • from jump in this video

  • was that as soon as Danielle told him

  • and revealed that she's a lawyer,

  • you could sort of see Eric's reaction to that.

  • And I think that, you know,

  • I think he was a little bit intimidated

  • By the fact that she's a lawyer

  • and they would be engaging in this conversation about bias.

  • And so, I do wonder

  • and if she had a different occupation

  • or if he a little bit more comfortable

  • and less like feel like he needed to stay on his toes,

  • would he have spoken to her

  • or spoken about this topic in the same way?

  • Eric made a distinction between pro-protesting,

  • "I'm against looting", but understanding that we can't—

  • when we talk about policing the major through line

  • is never the worst among them as the headline.

  • Protesting has very little to do with white agitation

  • and so-called anarchists people

  • bussing themselves into protest

  • to obviously be destroying property

  • and instigating property damage.

  • But it detracts.

  • It's easily,

  • if you're not interested in the subject matter,

  • detracts from the story.

  • It has to be addressed in a dominant fashion.

  • It eats up time and energy instead of talking

  • about the real frustration.

  • But he did land on an interesting point about looting

  • actually being the only way to get some people's attention.

  • Yeah, which was great.

  • It seemed like he had really thought it through

  • versus just saying, like, you know,

  • "These folks are taking advantage of the situation.

  • They're stealing. They're doing X, Y and Z."

  • Which is the way to deflect from the actual issue at hand

  • and I think that it's important

  • that we keep calling that out, these deflections

  • that keep coming up in these conversations.

  • And when we are in a time which we are now

  • of really having a public conversation

  • about transformational change around policing,

  • we're talking about defunding the police.

  • People are trying to figure out

  • what exactly that does and does not mean.

  • In order to really be present for

  • and active in that conversation,

  • you do need to understand some of the context

  • that they're laying out.

  • So, that's a step towards saying,

  • okay, if this is not working in

  • the way it claims to be working,

  • if it was we wouldn't have to talk about it.

  • If people felt both protected and served,

  • we'd be on to a different topic.

  • We defund things all the time.

  • We defund education, we defund health care,

  • we defund public assistance.

  • We reduce funding in those departments.

  • And I felt like Eric really started in a good place

  • and that he was open

  • and would be open to kind of understanding

  • that we actually have a lot of these mechanisms in place

  • and as a police officer I think he embodies

  • what a lot of deputy sheriffs or police officers,

  • however you define law enforcement in that case,

  • they know they're not the ones to call for.

  • They're exhausted.

  • They know they're not the ones

  • to call for mental health crises

  • or when you lost your dog

  • or for a neighbor's arguing with each other

  • about the sound or a driver

  • who pulled over to fall asleep.

  • You know, they know they're not the one

  • that they're spread thin on these issues.

  • And if they're only trained

  • to enforce criminal code with various forms of violence,

  • we're doing us all a favor by taking that off their plate

  • and putting that into a safer place.

  • So, I was glad to see that he was open

  • to kind of wrestle with an idea

  • and not have an easy, deflective quip.

  • Mm-hmm.

  • And I wanted to really quickly just touch on the idea

  • of around morality as a police officer or as a deputy sheriff

  • or just working in that field in general.

  • One thing that stuck out to me

  • was Eric was saying that when all else fails,

  • or, you know, if anything's ever in question,

  • I teach my trainees to always do the right thing.

  • And that is, it's too broad of an idea

  • when people's lives are in your hands, right.

  • So, it's like you know we're sure

  • that the police officer who was on George Floyd's neck

  • thought he was doing the right thing.

  • Sure.

  • Your bias directly affects what you think in that moment

  • is the right thing to do.

  • So if we're not all addressing our biases

  • and because they have the power to, you know,

  • really craft and mold the outcomes of these situations,

  • there's a larger conversation

  • that needs to be had within these police departments

  • because you know I mean, it all starts with bias.

  • And across the board can truly affect

  • whether someone lives or dies.

  • All right, let's dive into our next conversation.

  • We have Fred calling in from Pennsylvania

  • and we have Paul from Colorado.

  • There we go.

  • Sweet.

  • Hey, Fred, how you doing?

  • Good. How are you doing, Paul?

  • Oh, just peachy, man. [laughs]

  • Where you from?

  • Oh, you're a handsome lad.

  • [laughs] Thank you.

  • I am originally from Montreal.

  • Married with children?

  • I married a Puerto Rican women two years ago.

  • Out of that I got a 22 and a 21 year old.

  • They're gorgeous kids.

  • Very blessed.

  • Good, nice.

  • My oldest son's an engineer

  • and my daughters go to private school.

  • And my oldest, next oldest son was going to private school

  • as well for a while.

  • So, we're fortunate to be able to provide our kids with...

  • Yeah.

  • ...you know, that kind of education.

  • Let me intercept here on what you just said that

  • "We're very fortunate that we can do this".

  • What does that mean?

  • That means that I grew up in a pretty rough neighborhood.

  • Okay.

  • I had very serious run-ins with the police as a child.

  • I've been arrested four times by the police.

  • I've been roughed up by the police several times

  • and had the unfortunate experience

  • of burying over 50 kids from gang violence.

  • And then, I had a kid die in my arms in '91.

  • And so, I've known death a lot.

  • And so, I say fortunate

  • because I've been able to ascend

  • in the job market in our region.

  • I'm the first black CEO

  • of the company I'm currently in charge of.

  • I can't relate to what you're talking about

  • because where I come from, we don't have these issues.

  • The biggest problem I had growing up as a kid,

  • it wasn't race for me.

  • I grew up French, okay?

  • I didn't learn to really speak English until I was 12.

  • Most of my education was all in French.

  • But my name was English.

  • That caused problems at school.

  • I got into a lot of fights in the schoolyard,

  • allies or whatever

  • because I had an English name

  • and I lived in a French sector.

  • A lot of bombs were going off in English sectors.

  • And my mom was very concerned about that

  • because I was going to school in an English area.

  • Then I ended up moving back to Colorado in 1996

  • and I've been here ever since.

  • I can't agree to a lot of the visuals I just saw

  • because that's just not who I am.

  • I've never been a part of that, never will.

  • And so, I find it disturbing.

  • And I think the idea, the deep idea has really not improved.

  • For me, unfortunately I resonated very much

  • with the video,

  • in particular him being a judge.

  • I have some level of recognition

  • in the City of Pittsburgh

  • and so actually I get treated differently

  • if I come into a place and I'm dressed down.

  • People don't even speak to me,

  • people that have known me for years.

  • And so, people are used to this suit being me.

  • I would say from a context perspective,

  • there has always been slavery all around the world

  • for millennia.

  • Oh, yeah, yeah.

  • The kind of slavery that took place in America

  • is the only one of its kind, chattel slavery.

  • For 246 years,

  • America used black people from the continent,

  • from sun up to sun down,

  • to create a super power in less than 200 years.

  • After 246 years of slavery,

  • it was followed by a 135 years of institutional racism.

  • Jim Crow laws, redlining, making it illegal for blacks

  • to have the same benefits of their white counterparts

  • even after they went to fight in the world wars.

  • And now in America

  • we have 55 years of alleged freedom and equity

  • which many of us in America don't see that way.

  • And I can tell you that my experiences

  • as a black man with education,

  • having went to school several times,

  • I am challenged every day by microaggressions.

  • I'm challenged when I walk in a store.

  • I know that feeling of sitting in a restaurant

  • and people being directed to sit near you.

  • And they go, "No, I want to sit over here."

  • What?

  • And you have to tell your child

  • it's okay when it's not okay.

  • And so, Paul, I was very interested

  • and struck by your experiences

  • and also struck by the fact that that video moved you

  • because you never had that experience and that's not you.

  • But were you able to, for a moment,

  • put yourself in that person's shoes and window

  • and just wonder for a brief moment

  • what that might feel like?

  • Well, let me interject here.

  • First of all, it's not that it didn't move me.

  • It did.

  • It pissed me off.

  • You know, Fred, I'm just not seeing

  • that this country as I mentioned earlier, is really improving.

  • Have you ever thought about,

  • or had to give the talk to your daughter

  • or to your new

  • Son?

  • children in your marriage about any kind of interaction

  • where their race or beliefs might cause them

  • some social discomfort or be challenged by authorities?

  • If I had to have a conversation with my kids about this,

  • it would be hard for me

  • because I wouldn't know pretty much where to start

  • because I mean, I haven't had this problem.

  • But you know what?

  • You have to because they're being bombarded with this

  • 24 hours a day.

  • How I treat and talk to my children is very much reflective

  • of the environment that they walk into every day.

  • One of the most difficult conversations

  • I've had to have with my son is how to conduct yourself

  • when the police pulled him over

  • and they will get pulled over.

  • My most difficult conversation was years ago

  • having my oldest son drive one of my vehicles

  • and be pulled over by the police and harassed physically

  • because he was driving a very expensive vehicle.

  • Then the officer threw him up against the vehicle

  • and started harassing him

  • about what does his father do or mother do?

  • And so, you know, that really hurt us.

  • What you see today in the marching

  • and the sit-ins and the protesting

  • is really saying enough is enough.

  • You've had your foot on our necks

  • literally for 400 years

  • and we're not going to take it anymore.

  • Well, you know, I'm going to say something

  • about the protest movements, you know.

  • The change or the difference I found is that they became

  • this became global.

  • You know, you were having different countries in the world

  • that were walking around with banners

  • on what happened to George, even my country.

  • Now, I've got some interesting feelings about this looting

  • and all the stuff that's going on behind the protestors

  • because that's not the message.

  • So, I think that that's something

  • that might have been thrown in the wash and tainted.

  • Why don't you look at the other side of the fence, you know?

  • The police department, you know, what they're dealing with.

  • Okay? They got a job to do,

  • but I think some of them unfortunately take that badge

  • and the equipment that comes with it a little too seriously.

  • And unfortunately, there's a problem there.

  • And it's everywhere in this country, okay?

  • We know.

  • We got a sideline of cops that work together as a unit.

  • They back each other up

  • and they're all part of a little clique

  • that sometimes causes problems like this.

  • And they feel because they have this uniform

  • they can take all this authority.

  • One of the things I honor about people

  • is when people are transparent and fully vulnerable

  • and I think that's something

  • that men in particular struggle with.

  • Our bravado, our disposition,

  • the things people expect us to do and focus on.

  • It really has created a false sense of control for us.

  • And so, you know, Paul, I feel like we come

  • from two different sides of the world.

  • There's some similarities in how we were raised.

  • I'll tell you something right now

  • in comparison to where we relate again,

  • is that growing up I didn't have anybody to guide me.

  • I didn't have a father, okay.

  • I didn't have a father to guide me,

  • to give me wisdom, to teach me to basically even back me up.

  • So, my whole life as a kid, I had like a mask on.

  • And I was always trying to be something that I wasn't

  • because I didn't feel I was good enough.

  • It's funny, the more that you talk,

  • the more we have similarities.

  • I grew up from a broken home.

  • My mother and father divorced when I was young.

  • Yep.

  • Because when you allow yourself

  • to listen to another person's perspective,

  • you realize that many of their experiences mirrors your own.

  • But when you dig deeper, and this is implicit biases,

  • I can look at him and he can look at me

  • and go, "Hey, that's a black guy."

  • I could go, "That's a white guy."

  • But after an hour and a half, two hours,

  • we're two different people who happen to have one brown skin,

  • one white skin.

  • But the people who possess those skins

  • are not defined by black or white.

  • And I think that's the importance

  • of having conversations about bias and implicit bias

  • is that it allows us to expand our own horizons

  • in a way to push us to new levels of understanding,

  • appreciation and patience

  • that is required for us to figure out

  • how we're going to turn this thing around.

  • I need Paul.

  • It's the totality of all of our experiences that are going

  • to offer solutions to the global phenomena we face.

  • I can just see us, you know,

  • bumping into each other in a bar

  • and we would have this conversation.

  • And I'm pretty sure you'd probably say,

  • "You're not from here, are you?"

  • And but there should be more people that are not from here.

  • When you find a kindred spirit,

  • it's really about honoring

  • their humanity in ways that allows the DNA of the exchange

  • to the conversation to live in a part of you

  • so that you always honor the person who moved you

  • or filled your vessel

  • with a different fluid that allows you

  • to have more diversity of thought, action and beliefs.

  • So, I appreciate that and thank you.

  • As I would say, "A la prochaine fois, mon ami,"

  • which means, "Until next time, my friend."

  • Oui.

  • As long as you don't say it twice.

  • That means, "You gotta go somewhere".

  • All right, man. Love you, buddy.

  • All right, love you, man. Appreciate you.

  • - Take care. - Yes, sir.

  • - Okay, bye-bye. - Bye-bye.

  • Well, that was a cute little ending to a conversation.

  • I felt like they had this like really beautiful camaraderie

  • and almost like a brotherhood by the end

  • which was really refreshing and nice to see.

  • Just a reminder you guys, these are strangers.

  • This was their first time ever speaking to

  • and meeting one another.

  • So the fact that they were able to share experiences

  • and sort of compare and contrast

  • and then you know end it on such a really loving note,

  • was really nice.

  • Yeah.

  • It was sweet.

  • I think that it's also an example

  • because they're very different.

  • They have very different experiences as were highlighted

  • through the conversation which we'll talk about

  • and some presuppositions and misunderstandings

  • of different understandings of reality.

  • But what it does show

  • is really for me the value of these conversations

  • because you start where you are.

  • It doesn't matter if you have 15

  • or 55, you start where you are

  • in terms of in terms of exposure

  • and wrestling with new ideas

  • being challenged on your position.

  • There is no too early in this case

  • we're talking about adults to have these conversations.

  • And I feel like Fred challenged Paul

  • on a lot of his presuppositions.

  • We talked about the aging up of black youth.

  • This making them

  • you know, we've had studies that demonstrate

  • that there's after about nine, 10 years old

  • black minors become adults,

  • they get older than the way they actually are

  • to make them more threatening.

  • They are inflated.

  • Their persona has inflated

  • to make it more dangerous, menacing,

  • easy to be described as a threat.

  • These are things that Paul was familiar with,

  • but whenever he gets exposed to it,

  • he will be forever changed.

  • You can't unsee and unlearn historical context.

  • So that's really one of the beautiful things

  • about having these conversations.

  • I want to quickly jump into the idea of parenting

  • and sort of the difference between, you know,

  • how white people are raising their children

  • versus how black people are raising their children

  • and the conversations,

  • and how the conversations differ, right?

  • So, Paul was saying, you know, he wouldn't even know

  • where to start in terms of having these conversations

  • with his kids about racism, about bias, about prejudice

  • and how to be more aware of your own

  • so that you can make the lives of others,

  • who are different from you, better,

  • like help them have a little bit more of a better day

  • than they may have previously experienced

  • before coming in contact with them.

  • But then Fred was saying like after watching The Look

  • he was like, "Oh yeah, you know,

  • I can completely relate to all of these scenarios.

  • I've had the elevator door shut on me."

  • People have locked their doors when I've walked by

  • and, you know, and he wears suits for work.

  • So, he notices a real difference in how he's treated

  • when he's wearing suits

  • and then when he's out with his kids

  • and these microaggressions happen.

  • He has to sort of, you know, lay low,

  • not get too, you know, visually upset

  • and sort of to calm the situation

  • and to deescalate it, tell his kids,

  • "You know, it's okay. It's not a problem"

  • when it is a problem.

  • And I think that that's something

  • that I think that you know I can absolutely relate to

  • in terms of just sort of that, you know, how I was raised

  • versus I think, you know,

  • how some of my white counterparts were raised

  • who don't really deal with that.

  • Yeah, it's exhausting to have to consistently pace yourself

  • and be able to make it

  • do I use all my energy on this now?

  • Do I change the whole experience in the room

  • or do I want to just get out of here and take a breath

  • and deal with it in the car or later?

  • The degree to which we don't have control

  • over the onslaught,

  • control over when the wave is going to crash on us

  • and what a luxury it is

  • to just not ever have to be confronted with this

  • or have to talk to your family about it

  • and just being able to go about your life

  • pursuing your dreams and interests.

  • And whether the realities of our experience

  • is not for you to agree.

  • It's not a matter of agree or disagree.

  • It's a matter of do I care or

  • do I not, and being interested.

  • I think a big takeaway for me

  • was also sort of had to do with the short film The Look.

  • And, you know,

  • black man walking through the world being mistreated.

  • And then the reveal at the end is that he's a judge.

  • But I think something to really highlight here

  • is that even if he was not the judge,

  • even if he was the bailiff or even if he was the custodian,

  • he still does not deserve to be treated

  • in any of those ways.

  • Even if people who belong in marginalized communities

  • are not stand-up citizens or aren't heroes,

  • they still deserve respect

  • and they still deserve to go home at the end of the day.

  • Decency, fairness and freedom

  • does not have to be re-earned

  • every time a black person steps outside of their house

  • when white people just get to be white.

  • All right.

  • Let's go into this conversation,

  • which really stood out to me.

  • This is between Kaylah who calls in from New York

  • and Angela calling in from California.

  • They're some gems.

  • Hi.

  • Hi.

  • I'm Angela.

  • I'm Kaylah.

  • - Nice to meet you. - You too.

  • I feel like I have experienced

  • the look my whole life in high education,

  • in predominately white spaces,

  • like people assuming I don't belong somewhere

  • or wondering why I am somewhere.

  • For me what really stood out is having these stares.

  • And while I didn't grow up with that

  • actually growing up it was quite the opposite,

  • no one seeing me as an Asian American.

  • And then now, in the time of COVID-19,

  • we go from invisibility to hypervisibility.

  • So when I walk out that door

  • I am hypervigilant of the ways in which I take up space.

  • If I sneeze, is someone going to give me a dirty look?

  • Are people going to scoot back when they see me

  • because I'm Asian?

  • And we too have been hurt by systemic injustice.

  • Yeah.

  • Everyone has their own biases,

  • everyone is biased in some way about something or somebody,

  • and then the line between just being biased and being racist

  • is like what you do after that.

  • I think it's important to talk about bias

  • because it dispels any taboo or stigma there is.

  • When you name it, when you call it out,

  • when you know what it is,

  • it kind of flashes a light on it.

  • It can no longer hide in the dark.

  • For my undergrad Capstone project

  • I did a case study on this woman.

  • This black woman who was in jail

  • and she was pregnant and she died in jail

  • because she had an ectopic pregnancy

  • and the officers and the nurses didn't help her.

  • The other inmates were saying like,

  • "Hi, can you hear her, she's like dying?"

  • and nobody did anything.

  • But in doing more research

  • we see that those same guards and nurses in that same jail

  • 15 years earlier let the same exact thing happen

  • to another black women from the same exact cause.

  • When you're saying that too with the whole

  • kind of the health disparities

  • between black and brown communities,

  • I'm thinking about the father of gynecology

  • perfected his fistula operation on slave women

  • without anesthetics.

  • Something that we talked about a lot in my classes

  • and in my extracurricular during my Master's

  • was that this kind of like general idea

  • that black children, and black women, girls in particular,

  • kind of seen as older than they are

  • and seen as like being able to withstand pain.

  • I think a lot of our understanding of this comes,

  • you know, growing up, is obviously in our history books.

  • And they don't talk about stuff like this

  • and they kind of paint the whole civil rights movement

  • as like, oh, Dr. King came and he fixed racism,

  • Rosa Parks fixed racism and now we're good, you know,

  • and kids are kind of growing up and they're like, you know,

  • they see these things happen and are like, wait,

  • but I thought like racism is fixed.

  • - No. - Yeah.

  • The first person to do the Rosa Parks thing

  • I guess and not get off the bus was this young,

  • dark-skinned girl who was pregnant,

  • but they didn't want her to be the face of the movement.

  • There's so many facets of bias and racism

  • within communities even, not just between communities.

  • My dad, he's very light-skinned and I tried to tell him one time

  • that colorism is a thing

  • and light-skinned privileges is a thing

  • and he was like, "No it's not.

  • When I go to places,

  • people will respect me because I'm me."

  • And I was just like, "Okay but"—

  • he almost couldn't recognize

  • that if we were to go someplace,

  • we wouldn't get the same reaction

  • because like me being a darker-skinned black woman

  • and him being a lighter-skinned man,

  • not only is there the lighter-skinned privilege,

  • but also just you being a man.

  • In a lot of spaces that holds a lot of weight.

  • I have also had a few conversations

  • regarding, I guess just like microaggressions.

  • One conversation was with my supervisor

  • because I experienced some microaggression at work.

  • And he is a white male.

  • He's in his 50s.

  • And first thing he says is,

  • "Angela, you know,

  • I will never be able to understand your experience.

  • I recognize that I am a white male,

  • but can you help me understand?"

  • And I literally broke down when he said that

  • because it was such a place of humility, that he took

  • and I strongly believe

  • that like the person in the conversation

  • in the room, that has the least power,

  • should not be the person to bring up

  • the hardest topic, right?

  • And I think that he created a space

  • where he recognized that

  • and he kind of lowered himself to elevate me.

  • I love that story.

  • My question for you

  • would also be like how does your community

  • and I'm speaking specifically black community

  • view Asian Americans?

  • I have personally seen and experienced

  • a fair amount of racism from

  • I don't want to say the Asian community but specific people,

  • but I've also experienced the opposite.

  • But I do think that,

  • in particular when traveling abroad,

  • it's like something that I think about a lot,

  • just the way that anti-blackness is everywhere.

  • And, again, I don't think this is just in an Asian thing;

  • I think a lot of non-black communities

  • want to have the benefits of blackness,

  • but none of the other stuff that comes with it,

  • none of the negative things that come with it.

  • I think that there is a history of strife

  • between the Asian community and the black community

  • and I think a lot of it is designed.

  • The model minority, that term, that model minority term

  • was created by white people

  • as a way to perpetuate anti-blackness.

  • What the model minority myth is basically a term

  • that white people have created, saying that Asians,

  • you know, look how hard-working they are.

  • They are a group of people

  • that can pull themselves up by the boot straps.

  • Look how successful they can be in our society.

  • And then kind of pit that against the black community

  • and be like why aren't you doing anything?

  • If this group of immigrants can do this, why can't you?

  • To only justify like they're position of like,

  • oh, we're not racist; you're the problem.

  • Yeah.

  • So I think we must understand that,

  • how we've been used in that way,

  • like weaponized, you know, against the black community.

  • We have this like perpetual foreigner status.

  • We are a model minority until you're a perpetual foreigner.

  • It's kind of like the idea of like pet to threat.

  • Like we're good with you until like corona virus happens

  • and you're a threat, like your yellow peril.

  • Yeah, wow, yeah.

  • In kind of the beginning of the pandemic I guess,

  • I had like a little bit of a heated conversation

  • with a friend of mine

  • because he had been in Shanghai for work

  • and when he came back his coworker said something

  • like, "I hope you didn't bring anything back,

  • we're going to have to separate

  • one of the Asian American employees."

  • And he told me about it later and I said,

  • "Okay, so what did you say?"

  • And he said, "Nothing."

  • And I was so upset because in that moment

  • that person has enough either respect for you

  • or has enough of a relationship with you

  • to tell a joke like that,

  • then it's on you to use that position

  • to say, "Hey, this is not okay."

  • It's just unacceptable at this point

  • to not speak up about things,

  • especially when the other person is not in the room

  • to defend themselves.

  • I feel like you can't choose when to be like antiracist

  • because all these issues are connected

  • and all of these issues affect real human beings.

  • How do you think

  • Asian Americans can show up for black lives

  • in an Asian American way, however you perceive that?

  • For a start, I would just say like

  • using your own voice to speak out generally

  • and then also recognizing the privilege

  • that some people have to benefit

  • from black culture and blackness

  • but not have any of the bad implications of it.

  • And then also when you're elevated to a certain level,

  • making space for other people like you in that level;

  • whether you're a woman in the boardroom,

  • make room for other women in those spaces or make room

  • for other people of color in those spaces

  • I think is important.

  • I think often times the racial discourse

  • has been under a binary of black and white

  • and that kind of renders people in-between

  • as feeling invisible

  • or feeling irrelevant to the discourse.

  • And I think that's why a lot of people

  • feel like they can't speak up

  • because it's always about black and white, right?

  • Mm-hmm, yeah.

  • And so what would be helpful is to even offer space

  • to non-black people of color

  • to have those voices too,

  • because there is something

  • unique about their experiences.

  • That is going to contribute to allyship.

  • Just like I might expect friends of mine

  • to be allies for the black community,

  • I expect for myself to be an ally for other communities,

  • including the Asian American community,

  • including the Hispanic Latin communities,

  • including any and everybody.

  • I really enjoyed our conversation, Kaylah,

  • and like you said,

  • I think that we do have a lot in common

  • and everything that you were saying

  • my heart was like yes!

  • [laughs]

  • Even though our experiences are different,

  • that feeling of not being seen,

  • it's like the theme of our conversation, right?

  • Yeah, for sure.

  • Thank you for talking with me.

  • Yeah, thank you so much for everything

  • that you've shared with me.

  • I think it's just something that I really will treasure, thanks.

  • Bye!

  • Bye!

  • I love the discussion around women's health.

  • They really sort of did a deep dive on women's health

  • in regards to especially black women, in particular,

  • and how our bodies have been used for centuries

  • within the medical field to test

  • and to prod and pry and figure things out.

  • And specifically from the "Father of Gynecology,"

  • J. Marion Sims,

  • he was perfecting his process on black women's bodies

  • only to blow up

  • and really start this whole sector of the medical field

  • that hadn't really been ironed out yet.

  • Black women are constantly kicked out of hospitals,

  • or left for dead and neglected

  • because they are not only not treated

  • as valuable human beings,

  • but their symptoms must bethat's also gendered

  • because they must be hysterical because they're women.

  • They're considered to be stronger like oxen

  • because we're born here as chattels,

  • as pieces of animals, not human beings.

  • So all that stuff, all that bias, the slightest bias,

  • well, I just thought she was asymptomatic

  • or I thought that was probably just indigestion.

  • That is fueled by a bias,

  • like they're less reliable people

  • that can't be trusted to know themselves or others as well,

  • they're less mature.

  • Or they can handle it.

  • Yeah they're stronger.

  • Y'all, you're the face of undying strength.

  • Oh absolutely.

  • I mean, I can say myself, you know,

  • I've heard the term time and time again

  • in regards to the Asian American community

  • as being the "model minorities," that kind of thing.

  • And it totally makes sense, but I never

  • like the way that she articulated

  • it was so eye-opening because she was saying

  • that term was developed by white people.

  • Absolutely.

  • In order to weaponize Asian people

  • to really separate the marginalized communities

  • from each other so that we can't band together

  • and we don't feel like we are sort of all in this together.

  • It's really a lot of that separation.

  • It's just like colorism and slavery,

  • white people in having the house slaves

  • and the field slaves,

  • really driving that friction between these communities.

  • One of the things

  • that I'm reminded of in this conversation

  • is, when I was studying the Black Panthers

  • I think in high school,

  • and learning about Japanese and Asian support

  • for the Black Panthers

  • and the term "yellow peril" and seeing it in (inaudible)

  • one of the first examples to me of one minority

  • standing up for the other.

  • We're used to seeing it around gender,

  • sexual orientation in this generation;

  • men standing up in the Me Too movement

  • and people advocating against sexual assault

  • or rape culture

  • or certainly straight cis culture standing up

  • and advocating for those in the LGBTQI community.

  • So we're used to the structures there,

  • but in minority community there

  • tends to be such isolation

  • which is both its strength and, in many ways,

  • possibly it's a weakness

  • because it creates separateness.

  • Yeah, yeah.

  • And I think it sort of brings

  • us back to the idea of allyship

  • versus appropriation

  • and making sure that if you are taking and appreciating

  • the cool parts of certain cultures

  • and like the parts that are like convenient,

  • that are fun right, that you're also doing research

  • and you're also acknowledging and amplifying the bad

  • that also goes on within those communities

  • in efforts to change.

  • So I think it's really just being intentional.

  • I think an example of that, Freddie, that has worked

  • to communicate this idea to others

  • is black women's hair styles have been banned,

  • made unprofessional, you can't wear them.

  • Or basically any hair styles that white folks can't do

  • are considered unprofessional for black women;

  • various braids, dreadlocks, twists,

  • Bantu knots, etcetera.

  • They're just considered unprofessional,

  • just happens to be primarily black hair expression.

  • But once you start seeing

  • pop-culture icons that are white

  • or not black wearing corn rows

  • and they rename them as something else

  • and they're on runways for Chanel and Dior

  • and durags and all these things

  • that we weren't allowed in

  • your establishment if we had our hair that way,

  • if we wore Tim boots, if we had drank this beer.

  • There's all types of codified racism, right?

  • An example of how to be an ally

  • is once you get in with that hair style

  • advocating that we all get in.

  • Yep.

  • If you just walk in and leave them all out in the cold,

  • that's when you're appropriating,

  • that's when you're actually not

  • down for anything but yourself.

  • Beautifully put.

  • Well, that completes this round of conversations.

  • I think we covered a lot of ground,

  • had people from all over the country being really personal

  • and having really productive conversations.

  • I think there's a lot to break down.

  • You're doing it in the comments of Dr. L'Pree.

  • And we've tried to do our part

  • by carrying you through some of these things

  • and sharing our thoughts, insights and experiences.

  • Yes.

  • Thank you so much to all the participants.

  • This was such a valuable experience

  • and hopefully all the viewers have enjoyed it

  • and learned something as well, because I definitely did.

  • Yeah, it does take some bravery.

  • I don't know if all of us would have signed up to go in blind

  • for these one-on-one conversations sight unseen

  • and for it to be broadcast around the world;

  • a hats-off to you all for stepping up

  • and being brave enough

  • to have some of these conversations.

  • I've taken a lot from this experience, I must say.

  • I think throughout we talked about

  • some of the commonalities that reared their heads,

  • not necessary good or bad

  • but in a way that really helps us

  • kind of understand exactly why we do exercises like this.

  • Do you have any ideas that stuck out to you

  • as particularly resonant

  • and where people showed some growth?

  • Yeah, I mean, I think everyone walked out, hopefully-

  • and I really do think based on what we were able to see,

  • I think everyone walked out of this experiment

  • a little bit more aware

  • and I think that, that is the goal.

  • You know, it's not about being perfect,

  • it's not about not having bias, we all have our biases.

  • So I think that it's really important

  • that you recognize them

  • and then what really counts

  • is what you do once you recognize them

  • and how you sort of affect change in the world.

  • I think a big take away for me

  • was also sort of had to do with the short film The Look

  • and, you know, black man walking through the world

  • being mistreated

  • and then the reveal at the end is that he's a judge.

  • And that's what we've seen so much of in this last year

  • is folks letting those biases tumble, tumble,

  • until they grow so heavy that they can't be stopped

  • and people just get out of control.

  • I'm glad that didn't happen in any of these conversations,

  • so we could actually have productive dialogue.

  • Really impressed by the ability

  • of a lot of our participants

  • to step up, to adjust, to not like what they hear

  • but still find a way to stay on an even keel

  • and have a productive conversation.

  • Yeah, I'm really happy we did this, and, again,

  • thankful to P&G and BuzzFeed for creating a space for it.

  • It's pretty damn smart.

  • Yes, thank you so much.

  • And it's been great chatting with you, Jesse,

  • and just getting to know you more

  • and really bounce ideas off of each other.

  • I mean I can't think of a better pairing with us, you know?

  • Yeah, for real, for real. Take this show on the road.

  • Yeah, yeah.

  • One of the main goals

  • for today's experiment and conversation

  • is for you to walk away with some more confidence,

  • some more tools, some more courage

  • to have similar conversations about bias

  • with the folks around you.

  • We've also created a resource guide for how to best have

  • these conversations and in, can't tress this enough,

  • a productive manner.

  • The only point is not just an exercise

  • in getting your bars off.

  • It's about actually how can you move the ball forward.

  • And it's not always the person I would say you're talking to.

  • It's the others that are listening as well.

  • So we've partnered with a few organizations

  • that are leading the charge in this department

  • and work with them to develop a detailed plan

  • to help in the best ways that we can.

  • And some of that includes learning

  • about historical and present-day experiences

  • that fuel systematic racism, that fuel inequality,

  • ways that you, where you live, wherever that is,

  • you can activate your local communities directly.

  • You can be an ally, an advocate, an activist.

  • You can certainly be antiracist.

  • We've talked before

  • and the choice that P&G put together

  • really does a good job of illustrating

  • that you can't be neutral on a moving train,

  • as Howard Zinn used to say.

  • You have to be anti-racist.

  • Donate to these organizations

  • that we've laid out that advanced equity and justice.

  • There are people that are spending their time and energy

  • on justice for folks, they need our support.

  • And they need our money obviously, also.

  • And we can't stress that enough.

  • All it takes is, in life these little pivot points,

  • where you're exposed to something

  • that you otherwise wouldn't,

  • might inform a lot of designs going forward.

  • So go ahead and share the video.

  • You could have some really interesting conversations,

  • not only for yourself but for others.

  • So go ahead and click the link on the video description

  • for a page with more details on how to learn,

  • how to activate and donate.

  • Freddie, I think we came, we saw, we learned.

  • I'm really pleasantly surprised.

  • I didn't know how this was going to go.

  • I was excited about it

  • but I'm proud of what we not only learned

  • and experienced, but shared with each other today.

  • So I want to thank you for your

  • time, energy, and expertise.

  • It really made a world of difference.

  • Yes. Thank you so much.

  • I honestly, I mean I loved talking about this stuff.

  • I could talk about it all day, so this is not work for me.

  • It's definitely something that is more than that for me,

  • so I'm happy to be a part of this whole experiment

  • and project as a whole.

  • And to everyone watching,

  • thank you so much for watching and stay safe,

  • stay loud, and create change.

  • That's right, peace.

The one thing I would have to have an immediate bias

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