BBC Learning English. I'm Neil.

And I'm Sam.

Are you a saver or a spender, Sam?

Well, I'm trying to limit my spending

right now because I'm saving up

for a deposit to

buy a house.

Saving money is not always easy - as we'll

find out in today's programme, which is all

about 'thrift'. 'Thrift' is not a simple idea

to define. It's to do with living a simple

life free from the need to constantly

buy the latest products.

Today's consumer culture encourages us

to 'spend, spend, spend', but

it hasn't always

been that way. The Victorians for example

told people to 'save up for a rainy day',

meaning to keep some money back

in case of unforeseen emergencies.

But before we discover more about that,

it's time for today's quiz question. If you're

trying to save money you probably

know how hard it can be. So my

question is: what percentage

of people in the UK, do you think, have

less than £1000 in savings? Is it:

a) 5%, b) 15 %, or c) 30%?

Well, if I'm anything to go by

I'd say c) 30%.

OK. Well, we'll find the correct answer out

later. I mentioned before that 'thrift' is

a difficult idea to define, so here's

Alison Hulme, a lecturer at

the University of Northampton,

explaining more to BBC Radio 4's

programme Thinking Allowed:

There are two dictionary definitions

of thrift. The older of the two comes

from the word 'thrive'

etymologically, and described thrift

as the ability to live well

and to flourish, so it's

that sense of human flourishing.

The more recent definition is

the one we're probably

more familiar with which is about

frugality. All of that said, it's

been used historically

of course by various people in various

moments in various different

places in very different

ways and they've often had

a social or religious agenda.

It seems the oldest definition of 'thrift'

has nothing to do with

saving money and is

connected to the verbs 'thrive' and

'flourish' - meaning to grow

or develop successfully.

It was only later with the Puritans - 16th

century English Christians

with a reputation

for strict discipline - that the meaning

of thrift changed and became

associated with

frugality - being careful not to spend too

much money or eat too much food.

The Puritans believed that being

frugal was a religious virtue and

that people ought to

save money in order to give

to others in need.

Later on the meaning of 'thrift' changed

again. During the Victorian era,

it was connected

to the idea of managing your own money

in order to be a responsible citizen.

Throughout history then, there have been

different versions of 'thrift',

and this may be because

different religions or social groups

had their own agenda - a specific

aim or reason for

a particular group to do something.

For example, the Victorian

definition of thrift was based

on a social agenda about being

a respectable member of society.

Ideas about frugality and thrift changed

again during the Second World War

when the public

was encouraged to avoid waste

so that every material resource

could go into the war effort.

And in the post-war period, it changed

again as people's wealth

and standard of living

increased. Here's Alison Hulme again:

It's the idea that once people had enough

to meet their kind of

basic needs there was

this kind of moral slide into consumerism.

It's not a view that I subscribe

to in a simplistic

sense myself - I think there's a very fine

line to tread here.

There's no point denying

that, certainly in the developed world,

there's been a rise

in consumer capitalism, that's

just a truism, but thrift hasn't declined.

In modern times, people's motivation

to save up and be thrifty

declined once they had enough

to meet their basic needs - the

basic necessities needed to survive,

like food, clothes and

shelter and nothing extra.

Alison mentions that once these

basic needs were satisfied,

people moved away from thrift

into consumerism, the desire to buy

'luxury' products which

were not absolutely necessary.

According to some, this created

a moral slide - a decrease in the

standards of behaving

in good, fair and honest ways.

The rise in consumer capitalism

we have seen around the world

is an example of a truism

- something that is so obviously true

it is not worth repeating.

What is worth repeating

is the quiz question, Neil.

Yes, I asked you how many British people

had savings of under £1000.

And I said, c) 30%

In fact, Sam, it's b) 15%.

So I guess I'm not such a bad saver

after all!

OK. Well, today we've been talking about

the changing meanings of 'thrift',

an idea connected

to frugality - being careful

not to spend too much money.

The original meaning of 'thrift' was

to flourish - grow or develop

successfully - but that

definition changed as different religious

groups, like the Puritans, promoted their

own agenda - aim or reason for a

particular group to do something.

In recent times, people's ability

to meet their basic needs - the

necessities for survival

like food and shelter, have reduced the

importance of 'thrift', which

some believe has created

a moral slide - a reduction

in standards of moral behaviour.

And the associated rise of consumer

capitalism is an example of a truism -

something that

is obviously true and

generally accepted by all.

That's all for now. Join us again

next time for more topical discussion

and vocabulary. Bye for now!

Bye bye!