EVERYBODY.

MY NEXT GUESTS ARE TWO INCREDIBLY TALENTED ARTISTS WHO

ARE THE PERFORMER AND DIRECTOR OF THE NEW FILM "IN AND OF

ITSELF."

PLEASE WELCOME TO "A LATE SHOW," DEREK DELGAUDIO AND FRANK OZ!

HEY, GUYS!

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE!

>> HEY, STEPHEN.

GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> Stephen: NOW LITTLE CATCH-UP FOR THE AUDIENCE WHO

DIDN'T SEE LAST TIME DEREK WAS ON TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO --

IT'S BEEN A WHILE NOW -- >> YEAH.

>> Stephen: -- I CAME TO SEE THE SHOW THAT YOU CREATED AND

THAT FRANK DIRECTED "IN AND OF ITSELF" AT THE DARRELL ROTH

THEATER HERE IN NEW YORK.

EVIE AND I WERE SO BLOWN AWAY BY IT THAT WE WERE EAGER TO HELP

YOU MAKE IT INTO A FILM SO EVERYONE COULD SEE IT.

I WANTED THIS THING NOT ONLY TO BE PRESERVED BUT FOR EVERYONE TO

GET A CHANCE TO HAVE THE EXPERIENCE.

YOU AND I DID NOT DO A VERY GOOD JOB OF EXPLAINING WHAT THAT SHOW

WAS BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY THINGS YOU DON'T WANT TO GIVE

AWAY.

FRANK, I'M GOING TO HIT YOU HERE.

CAN YOU DO A BETTER JOB OF EXPLAINING WHAT THIS MOVIE IS

THAN WE DID IN EXPLAINING WHAT THAT PLAY IS?

WHAT'S IT ABOUT?

>> WELL, HERE'S THE THING -- I MEAN, IF I GIVE YOU MY OPINION

OR MY FEELING OVERWHAT IT'S ABOUT, IT'S A BETRAYAL OF THE

INTENT OF WHAT WE DID.

>> Stephen: THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

THAT IS WHY IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DESCRIBE THIS FILM OR THIS PLAY.

FRANK, THANKS FOR STOPPING BY, EVERYBODY.

DEREK, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

FRANK, ALWAYS A JOY TO SEE YOU.

>> AND YET, WHAT, TO ME, WHAT IS VALUABLE FOR SOMEBODY WHO WANTS

TO GO SEE SOMETHING IS THE MYSTERY OF IT AND THE INTRIGUE

OF NOT KNOWING WHAT IT IS.

>> Stephen: I'M NOT GOING TO FIGHT YOU ON THAT ONE BECAUSE

IT'S TRUE.

THE PLAY WAS MYSTERIOUS, THIS MOVIE IS MYSTERIOUS AND IN SOME

WAYS IT IS ABOUT THE MYSTERY OF IDENTITY, AND, DEREK, WHY WAS IT

IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO CREATE A PIECE OF ART THAT WAS ABOUT

IDENTITY?

WHAT DID THAT MEAN TO YOU?

>> I MEAN, I THINK, LIKE ANYONE, I STRUGGLE WITH WHO I AM AND

WHAT I'M SUPPOSED TO DO IN THIS WORLD AND FOUND MYSELF MAKING

DECISIONS BASED ON WHAT I THOUGHT OTHER PEOPLE MIGHT

EXPECT OF ME OR HOW THEY MIGHT SEE ME OR THE WORK THAT I DO,

AND I DECIDED, INSTEAD OF LETTING THAT KIND OF AFFECT ME

IN A WAY THAT WAS NEGATIVE, I DECIDED TO RUN TOWARDS THE FIRE

AND MAKE SOMETHING THAT DIVES HEAD-FIRST INTO THAT PROBLEM AND

MAKE A SHOW ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AND BE SEEN AND SEEING

OTHERS, MOSTLY.

>> Stephen: I MEAN, THE EXPERIENCE THAT I HAVE WATCHING

IT IS THE GRATITUDE OF -- WELL, AN ARTIST TALKING ABOUT THE

STRUGGLE TO BE SEEN AND ALSO THE FAILURE SO OFTEN AS TO SEE OTHER

PEOPLE AS THEY TRULY ARE.

AND BOTH OF YOU, IN THAT WAY, AS BOTH OF YOU SAID, IDENTITY

ITSELF IS AN ILLUSION, AND THIS MOVIE AND THE PLAY ACTUALLY

TACKLES THE CHALLENGE OF TALKING ABOUT THAT, WHICH, AS WE'VE

PROVEN JUST NOW, IS NOT ALWAYS EASY.

BUT BOTH OF YOU HAVE KIND OF AN UNEASY RELATIONSHIP AT TIMES

WITH HOW OTHER PEOPLE IDENTIFY YOU.

YOU KNOW, DEREK, SOMEONE MIGHT CALL YOU A MAGICIAN, OR, FRANK,

SOMEONE MIGHT PIGEON HOLE YOU FROM YOUR WORK WITH THE MUPPETS

AS A PUPPETEER.

WHY IS THAT UNCOMFORTABLE WHEN PEOPLE PUT IT ON YOU.

>> BECAUSE IT'S LIMITING.

WHEN I'M CALLED A PUPPETEER OR DEREK CALLED A MAGICIAN, IT'S

THE THE PERCEPTION OF THE PUPPPUPPETEER AND WHAT IT MEANS

B A PUPPETEER.

AND THE PERCEPTION IS THEY PERCEIVE IT TO BE ONE THING, AND

THAT HAPPENS TO BE ALWAYS STEREOTYPICAL, AND THAT

STEREOTYPICAL VERSION OF WHAT THAT AMERICAN IS ALWAYS

LIMITING, AND THAT'S AGAINST THE LAYERS AND COMPLEXITIES AS HUMAN

BEINGS AND THAT'S WHAT BOTHERS ME.

>> Stephen: AND, DEREK, WHAT IS THE HESITANCE YOU HAVE WITH

THE LABEL OF MAGICIAN?

>> IT'S ABOUT, I GUESS, LEGIBILITY FOR THE WORK, AND

THAT WORD "MAGIC" OR "MAGICIAN" IT REALLY IS POTENT, AND A LOT

OF IMAGERY COMES INTO ONE'S HEAD.

I DON'T KNOW EVEN KNOW WHAT IT IS.

BUT, YES, THERE'S THAT.

BUT EVEN THE BEST VERSION OF IT STILL PREVENTS PEOPLE FROM

ACTUALLY SEEING OR HEARING WHAT I'M TRYING TO PUT IN FRONT OF

THEM, BECAUSE EVEN IF IT ISN'T A PEJORATIVE, IT'S STILL -- IT

PUTS SOMETHING IN THEIR MIND THAT SAYS WHAT THE CONTEXT IS

ABOUT, THAT I'M SUPPOSED TO DECEIVE YOU, AND THIS IS ABOUT

ME FOOLING YOU, AND THAT'S THE SOCIAL CONSTRUCT THAT WE HAVE,

AND THAT'S NOT WHAT THE WORK IS ABOUT FOR ME AT ALL.

AND, SO, I GUESS JUST KIND OF TRYING TO GET THEM TO SEE IT

WITH FRESH EYES AND NOT HAVE THAT PRECONCEIVED NOTION OF WHAT

THEY'RE GOING INTO IS ONE STEP, YOU KNOW -- IT'S THE BEGINNING

OF THE PROCESS, GOING TO THIS CLEAN, NOT NECESSARILY ASSUMING

WHAT YOU THINK THIS IS OR WHO I AM, IS PROBABLY THE BEST WAY TO

ENTER THIS EXPERIENCE.

>> AND THERE'S A POSITIVE I THINK, STEPHEN, ABOUT PEOPLE

THINKING IT WAS MAGIC BECAUSE THEY COME -- THEY CAME TO A

THEATER THINKING IT WAS MAGIC, AND IT TURNS OUT MAGIC WAS THE

TROJAN HORSE BECAUSE, AFTER 15 MINUTES OF SAYING, WHOA, WAIT A

SECOND, THIS IS A LOT MORE THAN I THOUGHT, AND THEY FORGET ABOUT

IT AND THEY'RE MOVED TORE REASONS THEY DON'T -- FOR

REASONS THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW.

>> Stephen: THAT IS ONE TO HAVE THE STARTLING THINGS ABOUT

THIS IS IT'S STORYTELLING, THESE ARE TRUE STORIES ABOUT YOUR LIFE

THAT ARE ILLUMINATED THROUGH THESE ILLUSIONS THAT YOU DO.

BUT THESE ARE DEEPLY AFFECTING STORIES AND, FOR LACK OF A

BETTER WORD, THE ACTUAL MAGIC IS GOING ON INSIDE OF US ABOUT HOW

WE PERCEIVE YOU AND HOW ANYONE WATCHING THE FILM PERCEIVES EACH

OTHER OR THE AUDIENCE IN THE THEATER WHERE YOU'RE SEEING IT

SHOT.

EVIE AND I ARE SO PROUD TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH BOTH OF YOU, AND

THIS IS POSSIBLY THE MOST BEAUTIFUL THING THAT I HAVE HAD

ANY PART IN MAKING, IN THAT SMALL WAY THAT WE WERE ABLE TO

HELP YOU.

AND AS I ALWAYS DO TO PEOPLE WATCHING AT HOME, I AM URGING

YOU TO GO SEE IT BECAUSE I THINK IT REALLY IS A FILM OF THIS

MOMENT, AND IT IS A REMINDER THAT WE CAN ALL BE A BETTER

COMMUNITY, A BETTER COUNTRY, A BETTER HUMANITY, IF WE JUST SEE

EACH OTHER, AND THAT'S THE TRUE MAGIC OF WHAT DEREK AND FRANK

HAVE CREATED HERE IS THAT IT OPENS OUR EYES TO EACH OTHER AND

TO OURSELVES, AND THAT'S A LIBERATING FEELING.

>> AND THIS IS THE TIME FOR THAT, ACTUALLY.

>> Stephen: "IN AND OF ITSELF" PREMIERES TOMORROW ON HULU.

DEREK DELGAUDIO AND FRANK OZ, EVERYBODY.

WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.