>> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY.

WELCOME BACK.

MY NEXT GUEST IS THE "NEW YORK TIMES" BESTSELLING AUTHOR KNOWN

FOR HIS BIOGRAPHIES OF FIGURES LIKE LEONARDO DA VINCI, STEVE

JOBS, AND ALBERT EINSTEIN.

HIS NEW BOOK IS "THE CODE BREAKER."

PLEASE WELCOME, WALTER ISAACSON.

WALTER, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME BACK.

I APPRECIATE IT, STEPHEN.

>> Stephen: IT'S ALWAYS A GOOD CONVERSATION WITH YOU BECAUSE

YOU WRITE ABOUT SOME OF THE MOST FASCINATING PEOPLE IN HUMAN

HISTORY, BUT NOW YOU'RE WRITING ABOUT SOMEONE WHO IS STILL

ACTIVELY EXPLORING, ACTIVELY DISCOVERING.

HER NAME IS JENNIFER DOWDNA, AND WHAT SHE'S FAMOUS FOR, SHE'S ONE

OF THE DISCOVER REARS OF THE USE OF KRISPER, THE CODE BREAKER.

WHAT IS CRISPER.

>> A BACTERIA THAT'S BEEN USED TO FIGHT VIRUSES FOR A BILLION

YEARS.

THEY TAKE A MUG SHOT OF ANY VIRUS THAT ATTACKED OF A SNIPPET

OF ITS GENETIC CODE AND WRAP IT IN A CLUSTERED REPEATED SEQUENCE

KNOWN AS A CRISPER.

WHEN THEY SEE THE VIRUS AGAIN THEY USE THE ENZYME TO SHOP IT

UP.

WHAT JENNIFER DID AND THEY WON THE NOBEL PRIZE FOR IT IS TO

SAY, WOW, IF BACTERIA CAN DO THAT, WE CAN REPURPOSE IT SO

THAT WE CAN TARGET HUMAN GENES AND CUT GENES IN OUR OWN BODY.

SO IT BECAME A TOOL TO EDIT GENES.

>> Stephen: WELL, THE EXTRAORDINARY THING ABOUT THIS,

AS YOU SAID, IT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR, YOU KNOW, A BILLION YEARS,

BACTERIA HAS BEEN DOING THIS SORT OF THING.

WE'VE HAD THE CONCEPT OF DNA FOR A LONG TIME.

WE'VE HAD THE IDEA OF GENE EDITING AS A POSSIBLE MEDICAL

TREATMENT OR MANIPULATION OF OUR GENOME, BUT WE HAVEN'T HAD THE

TOOL.

NOW THAT THE TOOL IS HERE AND CAN BE SO PRECISE IN ITS

EDITING, ARE WE HEADING, IN YOUR OPINION, TOWARD A UTOPIA OR A

DYSTOPIA?

BECAUSE THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF SOMETHING NEW, ISN'T IT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IT'S WHY I WROTE THE BOOK BECAUSE I THINK IT'S UP TO US AS

A SOCIETY TO SAY, BOY, WE HAVE TO USE THIS FOR REALLY IMPORTANT

THINGS.

WE'VE ALREADY USED IT LAST YEAR TO CURE SOMEBODY OF SICKLE CELL

ANEMIA.

AND EASY GENE MUTATIONS LIKE M.D., CYSTIC FIBROSIS, THOSE ARE

THE THINGS WE SHOULD BE USING IT FOR.

NOW, OF COURSE, YOU CAN READ BRAVE NEW WORLD AND KNOW WE CAN

USE GENE EDITING IN THE FUTURE TO SAY, HEY, THE RICH PEOPLE CAN

BUY BETTER GENES FOR THEIR KIDS.

SO THAT'S WHERE I GET TO THE DYSTOPIA THAT I HOPE WE DON'T

EVER ENCOUNTER.

>> Stephen: WE GET BACK TO THE POSSIBLY DYSTOPIAS?

JUST A MOMENT, BUT I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS USE OF THE

TREATMENT, IN THIS CASE FOR SICKLE CELL.

WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS I CAN UNDERSTAND USING CRISPER TO

ADJUST THE DNA IN A SINGLE CELL -- SAY A STEM CELL THAT HAS

A PHRASE I DON'T ENTIRELY URNS CALLED PLEURO POTENCY WHERE IT

CAN BECOME ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT CELLS IN OUR BODY.

THOSE ARE CHANGED WITH CRISPER, STEM CELLS ARE TAKEN OUT,

CHANGED, AND GO BACK INTO YOUR TO DO THE BUSINESS CRISPER HAS

TOLD IT TO DO.

HOW DOES IT PROPAGATE THROUGHOUT THE BODY?

WE'RE NOT INJECTING IT INTO EVERY CELL IN YOUR BODY.

HOW IS IT AFFECTING THE CHANGE FROM CELL TO CELL?

>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

IN MOST CASES, IT DOESN'T IF YOU'RE CURING SICKLE CELL, ALL

YOU HAVE TO DO IS GET THE STEM CELLS TO PRODUCE BLOOD CELLS

THAT ARE HEALTHY, AND YOU CAN DO IT IN THE EYE AND FIX THE CELLS

IN THE EYE IF YOU HAVE CONGENITAL BLINDNESS AND YOU CAN

NOW TARGET CANCER BECAUSE CANCER HAS A WAY OF FIGHTING OUR

IMMUNOTHERAPY SYSTEMS, OUR OWN IMMUNE SYSTEM, BUT YOU CAN TURN

THAT ABILITY IN THE CANCER CELLS OFF, SO THERE ARE MANY THINGS

YOU CAN DO.

IF YOU WANTED TO GET INTO EVERY CELL OF THE HUMAN BODY, THEN

YOU'VE GOT TO GO A STEP FURTHER, WHICH ALREADY HAS BEEN DONE, BUT

IT'S A LITTLE BIT MORE TUBOUS, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO EDIT EARLY

STAGE EMBRYOS OR REPRODUCTIVE CELLS SO THAT IT MULTIPLIES AND

BECOMES PART OF A WHOLE BODY, BUT, THAT WAY, IT IS ALSO

INHERITED BY ALL THE CHILDREN OF THE PEOPLE YOU EDIT AND ALL OF

THEIR DESCENDENTS.

SO WHAT YOU'VE DONE IS EDIT THE HUMAN RACE.

>> Stephen: MY UNDERSTANDING IS VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS ALREADY

INDICATED, YOU KNOW, SEMISERIOUSLY THAT CRISPER MIGHT

BE GOOD TO CREATE SUPERSOLDIERS.

>> ABSOLUTELY, YOU CAN MAKE SOLDIERS RESISTANT TO RADIATION

AND PUTIN SAID WE CAN MAKE THEM SO THEY'RE LESS SUSCEPTIBLE TO

FEAR OR THAT THEY HAVE LESS COMPASSION.

HE SAID THAT TO A YOUTH GROUP.

AND, SO, ONE OF THE BIG FUNDERS NOW OF THIS RESEARCH IS THE

DEFENSE DEPARTMENT.

DARPA, THE RESEARCH AGENCY THERE, HAS FURNISHED JENNIFER

DOWDEN'S LABS AND HARVARD AND M.I.T. TO CREATE ANTI-CRISPER,

PRETTY MUCH WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE, IS HOW DO YOU REVERSE IT IF SOME

ME NEF LENT ACTOR HAS DONE IT.

>> Stephen: WELL, YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT SO MANY PEOPLE WHO

ARE CONFIDENTLY DESCRIBED AS GENIUSES, WHAT IS THE

COMMONALITY BETWEEN EINSTEIN OR JENNIFER DOWDEN.

>> WHAT COUNTS IS BEING IMAGINATIVE AND CREATIVE.

TO ME, THERE'S ONE TRAIT THAT REALLY STANDS OUT FROM LEONARDO

Da VINCI ALL THE WAY TO JENNIFER DOWDEN AS A YOUNG KID

IN HAWAII, AND THAT'S JUST BASIC CURIOSITY, PURE CURIOSITY, AND

THAT YOU'RE DOING THESE THINGS FOR CURIOSITY'S SAKE.

THIS IS HOW BEAUTIFUL NATURE, IS WHICH SUBPOENA OUT OF CURIOSITY,

ALL THESE SCIENTISTS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S THIS WEIRDNESS

IN BACK TIER DWRA AND TURNS OUT TO BE USEFUL.

SO INSTEAD OF PURSUING THINGS BECAUSE THEY'RE USEFUL AND

THEY'LL GET YOU PATENTS OR PRIZES, IT'S BEST TO START OFF

BEING CURIOUS WONDERING WHY IS THE SKY BLUE OR LEAVES CURL WHEN

YOU TOUCH IT.

THOSE ARE THE THINGS, FROM STEVE JOBS, AND I MUST SAY, IT'S ONE

OF YOUR TRAITS, TOO, I LOVE IT ABOUT YOU, YOU'RE SO CURIOUS

ABOUT EVERYTHING, AND YOUR DIRTY LITTLE SECRET IS YOU'RE CURIOUS

ABOUT SCIENCE AS WELL.

I LOVE THAT.

>> Stephen: I DO BELIEVE DISCOVERY IS GREATER THAN

INVENTION, AND I ALWAYS LOVE TALKING TO YOU, WALTER.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU, STEPHEN.

>> Stephen: "THE CODE BREAKER" IS AVAILABLE NOW.

WALTER ISAACSON, EVERYBODY.

BACK WITH A PERFORMANCE BY SEBASTIAN YATRA AND GUAYNAA.

♪♪♪