Grant Shapps, the Government's Transport Secretary, former Minister

and Chairman of the Conservative Party under David Cameron.

A Labour MP for nearly 10 years,

former Shadow Secretary for Energy and Climate Change, Lisa Nandy.

Rupert Read, Professor of Philosophy at East Anglia University,

former Green Party candidate and now spokesperson for climate

change campaigners Extinction Rebellion.

Journalist and breakfast host on talk radio, Julia Hartley-Brewer.

And businessmen and guest Dragon on the BBC's Dragons' Den,

Theo Paphitis.

APPLAUSE

Welcome very much to our panel, to our audience here

and, of course, to you at home.

Join in the conversation, you can argue along in the usual way,

#BBCQT, on Facebook, on Instagram and on Twitter.

We'd like to hear what you've got to say.

So, let's hear our first question tonight, which is from Sally Knight.

Should climate change activists be applauded or arrested?

Lisa.

Well, I really support what's happened in the last few weeks and

I don't say that lightly, but the reason I say it is because I've been

a member of Parliament now for nearly 10 years

and over that time, I've seen how this is an issue, the most

important issue of our time, that is always kicked into the long grass.

Because there's always something that is supposedly more

important, always something that is supposedly more pressing

and I think without those young people going out on climate strike,

without the protests that we're seeing in the streets,

this issue just quite simply would not be on the agenda,

but what really matters now is what happens next,

because there's a chance now

to build a really broad coalition that will keep that pressure up.

Why do we need to keep the pressure up?

Because we're not even on track to meet our net zero target by 2050.

The reason for that is actually Grant's department, transport, where

we're actually going backwards in terms of emissions, not forwards.

And I suppose the only thing I would say to the protesters,

many of whom I really admire so far,

is that you've got to take people with you on this journey.

There is no point in telling people in towns like Wigan

to get out of their cars when our trains and our buses have been

brought to a standstill for the last two years.

This has got to be a positive agenda about creating the clean

energy jobs in towns like mine,

jobs that were lost when the mines closed many years ago, about warmer

homes, about better futures for our young people

and about a better environment,

and if we make common cause with people who are trying to, to,

to improve the daily lives of ordinary people in this country,

I think this is a battle that we'll win, we'll start

to take action and we'll build a better Britain in the process.

APPLAUSE

Theo. What's your view?

Well, I think the argument is undeniable,

although I think there's a bloke across the pond that is denying

it's ever happening, but we'll put him to one side for the moment.

Because it's not very important here tonight.

But the reality is the argument is undeniable.

The method is ridiculous

because I've just come back from my company conference. Two days,

I had 500 colleagues there and I've got to tell you, climate change

was the number one question we had for discussion at that conference.

We've got so many things for our business,

everybody's tuned in on the environment, sustainability,

climate change and what our business is doing,

and in fact they even voted that now we should plant every...

this year, a tree for every colleague we hire

and that we already have.

That's over 4,000 trees for this year and they're saying

they'd rather have that spent out of our bonus pot.

That's how important it is, so we don't need people to get

superglue, stick it on somebody else's butt

and hang around there for two days, stopping them going to work,

stopping them going to a hospital, stopping them going through their

normal, everyday lives, where they work to put food on the table for

their children, a roof over their head and to lead a normal life.

That just is not acceptable.

Sally, what's your view? As you asked the question.

I think it's really interesting, Lisa, that you used

the word "protester," because I deliberately worded the question

"activist," which is suggesting that I support, absolutely support

the cause and it's absolutely right that this is highlighted

and that governments worldwide take notice.

But I agree with Theo that the methods...

I really don't applaud at all

and I think for normal people just trying to get to work,

do the right thing, it really is deplorable

and I just think there are better ways to grab headlines.

So, Rupert, what do you think when you hear that?

Because you want to take people with you.

Well, I think the first thing to say is, if there are better methods,

honestly, I'm all ears because I've been in this game for a long time.

I've been working in non-governmental organisations,

in the Green Party for many years, knocking on doors, etc,

and do you know what? None of it worked, right.

Earlier on this year, we're still on the same trajectory to

disaster as we have been for the past 20 years but then what happens?

In April, we had Extinction Rebellion

and the first glimmer of starting to change, we managed to push

the issue up the agenda when a thousand of us brave souls,

and it's because of them,

it's because of those 2,000 people now of ours who've been arrested.

You're deluded! Excuse me, let me just finish this point, it's key.

It's because of those 2,000 people that have been arrested,

yeah, that I have the privilege of being here on this panel this

evening at all, right, otherwise I wouldn't be here, yeah.

But look, what I do want to acknowledge is this,

there's a reason why the story hasn't worked until recently.

And the reason is that the problem feels too remote,

so, yeah, after April, a lot more people said, "We agree,

"climate change is an emergency."

But it still feels too remote to people,

it doesn't feel like an emergency.

So, you know, those of you who are there thinking, "Well,

"is it really quite as bad as they're saying?"

I get where you're coming from. I understand that.

I tried for 20 years in the old methods and the old story

and it doesn't work, so here's my message this evening.

We're changing up.

We're changing up in terms of our methods,

nonviolent civil disobedience, the same thing that succeeded for

the Suffragettes, for Martin Luther King, for Gandhi

and many others besides, and we're changing up with the message,

so my message to you tonight is forget about 2050,

forget about rising sea levels, forget about polar bears

and penguins, precious and beautiful though they are,

this is about us now.

This is about the fact that last summer,

the crops in this country were

failing as they were baked in the fields.

This is about the vulnerability of our food supply.

This is not even about our children or our grandchildren any more.

This is about the intense vulnerability of our whole society

to this catastrophe that is already descending on us.

That's why we're at London City Airport today,

showing some of that vulnerability.

That's why we need to be out there until that message gets through

and starts to really, really change.

OK, let's hear a little bit from the audience here.

The man in the denim jacket.

Obviously we all know that the environment is a huge issue.

I myself follow a plant-based diet because of it,

but it's interesting that you talk about the methods. For me,

a load of people dancing in the street, probably off their head

and, you know... No. ..dreadlocked, soap dodgers...

You may be maligning a whole group of people there,

I'd just like to say. There's no drugs or alcohol

at Extinction Rebellion events.

I think it's the wrong type of people who are putting out

this message. There is a real argument for the environment

and it's completely painting the wrong picture,

and as Theo said, it's stopping people going to work,

it's causing normal people problems and it shouldn't be.

It should be a problem that we all adopt

and we all change our regular lifestyles for and I think

when you see these people dancing in the street, it's not a protest,

it's just a field day, and I think it's really important that we

make this a proper issue and not make it look stupid.

Rupert, I know you want to come back in and I'll let you.

I'm just going to get round the audience a little bit.

Yes, you in the front, you wanted to say something.

I do worry about some of the younger people who are seeing this

and thinking it's an appropriate thing for them to do,

potentially then getting criminal records and then potentially harming

their future employment prospects by having a criminal record which then

means certain job opportunities aren't available to them.

Man in the classes.

One individual called Greta Thunberg, we know,

we understand her, she's actually garnered

a lot of support as an individual around the world and

whether you like her attitude or not, she's actually done that.

Whereas what we have now is our activists in London,

we're actually alienating people against them.

I think that's starting to destroy the argument

and they need to be very careful.

The woman in the yellow sweater here.

I was going to reference an article a few days ago

where you spoke about the need to perhaps refer to this

as an extermination event rather than an extinction event,

because that's too passive

and I wondered what the panel thought of that.

And do you support the action that's been taken by Extinction Rebellion?

SHE SIGHS I do. I do, yes, fundamentally.

With a big sigh. I do, yes.

I think it's sad that they're being arrested rather than applauded.

I think that's a waste of police time.

APPLAUSE

Rupert, I'll come back to you in a minute, just let me hear

a little bit from the rest of the panel. Julia.

Look, absolutely I think we should be tackling environmental issues,

moving towards renewable fuels, cleaning up our waste

and our oceans and looking after our planet,

but there is nothing in any of the science, nothing in any

of the IPCC reports that suggests we're heading towards a catastrophe,

a crisis, mass extermination or anything of the sort.

This is scaremongering of the worst kind.

Well, the UN says we have "12 years to limit global temperature

"rise to 1.5 degrees and urgent, unprecedented changes are needed."

Well, no, what it says is if, if we do actually want to try

and prevent a 1.5 degrees...there's a two thirds chance we can do that

if we do address those issues, but there's no, there's not

necessarily a catastrophe that results if we don't do that.

The Earth has been warmer than that,

but the key thing is what we have to do in order to achieve that.

What Extinction Rebellion are doing and what they want, which is very,

very different from what has been discussed by other climate

activists over the years, is the net zero global, of carbon

emissions by 2025 is achievable not by getting rid of diesel cars

or perhaps people having a bit of an extra tax on their flights

to Majorca on holiday,

we are talking about getting rid of all cars,

all buses, all trains, all central heating, all flights,

having state rationing of meat, this is what it will actually involve.

It's impossible to achieve that target otherwise.

This is about taking us back to a preindustrial age.

Now, we're told constantly this is a terrible thing,

industrialisation has been a terrible thing.

Industrialisation, the Industrial Revolution is the greatest thing

that's ever happened to mankind.

It has delivered longer, healthier, happier,

more fulfilling lives for billions more people than anything

else that has ever been achieved by our planet.