in-the-air perspective, is that we're all--

Oh, I see what you did there.

Because Sam can fly.

Oh, OK. - Yeah.

You--

You must be some kind of writer.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Hi, everyone.

My name is Evan Narcisse.

I'm a comic book writer and a recovering journalist.

Most recently, my work for Marvel

has included "Rise of the Black Panther," Marvel's "Voices,"

and "The Last Annihilation:

Wakanda."

And I am Tochi Onyebuchi, author

and NAACP Image Award finalist, most notably

known for "Captain America:

Symbol of Truth" and "Black Panther:

Legends."

Thank you so much for joining me here on "Disney+ Voices"

to discuss the expansion of Black narratives

in the Super Hero genre, and how elements from Black culture

have become ever more present in today's comics, specifically

in the Marvel Universe.

I, you know--

So, Tochi--

I just-- like it's--

[LAUGHING]

It's funny, because I feel like during the course of this

conversation, this is going to happen a lot,

where we're both like, I'm--

[INTERPOSING VOICES] - I want to say something.

Because I'm excited to talk about you.

And I'm excited to talk about you.

You're my friend.

And you're my friend, too.

Exactly.

Talk to me about why you think, like,

Sam is such an important character when we talk

about the evolution of Black Super Hero portrayals

within the Marvel Universe.

Really now, he's front and center in a way

he hasn't been before, right?

Like, Marvel Studios' "The Falcon and The Winter Soldier,"

people are experiencing this character

in a whole new context.

It's really dope to see Sam Wilson

take on this really iconic role and not be a sidekick.

And we saw some of this in "Falcon

and The Winter Soldier."

And you know, it's time.

There is that-- it's time.

It's almost past time.

I was about to say, it's past time if we're being

really real, it's way past time.

Exactly, yeah, if we're keeping it 100 emoji.

There's an incredible richness that you

get in having a Black man, having a Black Super Hero assume

the role of Captain America, particularly

given the state of America.

There's this temptation to do this sort of throat clearing

in the beginning, right?

And we've seen this in previous instances of Sam

holding the shield, which is to address

the question of the racism that he'll face domestically,

the #NotMyCaptainAmerica folks.

And I wanted to skip right past that, because in my mind,

Sam Wilson's not going to put down

the shield because some edgelord's like,

don't think that a Black man should-- like,

he's Captain America, like, he's just--

he's going to do his job.

He's got bigger fish to fry, so to speak.

What I realized was really cool about it

was that this was an opportunity to build Sam Wilson's cannon.

Because we haven't necessarily seen

Sam interact with the majority of the Marvel Universe

as Captain America.

Sam is going to interact with T'Challa, with Wakanda,

very differently than Steve Rogers

would, because he's a Black man, because he's African American.

Because he might be thinking in a way

that Steve isn't thinking, of the question of,

OK, Wakanda's had all these resources,

and they just let the rest of the Black world

go through what they were going through?

Like, that's-- it's such a rich--

Yes, yes.

--dramatic material.

When I was writing "Rise of the Black Panther,"

one of my favorite scenes that I wrote

was, you know, a young T'Challa is in New York,

and he runs up against Luke Cage,

like, back when he's still Carl Lucas.

And part of the reason was just pure fanboy.

I was like, look, this man has been

running around with a pseudonym that sounds just like yours.

What if they meet

And then they're like, oh, we're not going to be best friends.

I don't know you. You're trying to rob me.

Because-- - Exactly.

That's how Luke ran back in the day, right?

I think some readers might pick up "Symbol of Truth"

and expect there to be all these cameos from

other Black Super Heroes, and everybody's just getting along,

right?

And they're all on the same team,

because they're Black Super Heroes, right?

That's not what I have planned.

And it's super dope, because you get to really highlight

these really interesting sort of intracommunal conflicts

that I think are such rich dramatic material.

I read the first issue of "Symbol of Truth"

a couple of weeks ago.

But even before that, I read "Black Panther:

Legends," the first couple of issues,

and I love how you're using Hunter so much.

I was like, yes, somebody else who gets it.

This dude is fascinating.

Like, you're the only one in Wakanda.

Like, what do you do?

And then you're being the shady ultra-nationalist?

Like, it's just such a great character to tap into.

I mean, I couldn't-- as soon as I discovered him,

there was no way I wasn't going to use him.

I was just like, this guy has just been sitting on the shelf

the whole time.

Like, what is-- - Yeah, yeah.

--going on?

And I love it, because it's this brilliant kind

of like subversive implementation

of the Tarzan myth, right?

It's like--

Oh.

--you're a White guy who crash-lands in Africa,

and you're king of the jungle? Guess what?

The jungle already has a king.

So we'll let you live, but you're not going to be

king of anything over here.

So I just-- as like a psychological motivation

for him to, like, to turn towards amorality,

I think, is brilliant.

So I'm really excited to see what else you do with him.

Oh, man, thank you so, so much.

When I was doing my research for "Black Panther:

Legends," and I was reading up on T'Challa and so much

of the mythology of him, "Rise of the Black Panther"

was an essential work for me.

Well, how did you go from being a kid who loved comics

to writing something like "Rise of the Black Panther"

for Marvel?

Comics have always been a part of my life,

a huge part of my life, right?

Like, I grew up reading them.

I learned to read from reading comics.

And one of the earliest characters that I latched on to

was T'Challa.

One of the reasons I loved him was because he gave me

such strong, like, immigrant vibes.

Even as a member of a Super Hero team.

Like, you're the ruler of a country.

You come to another country, and all

of a sudden, you're like, wait, I don't

get how things work here exactly, kind of wishing I

was back home.

As a child of immigrants myself, I knew what that was like that.

That made T'Challa feel familiar to me.

Then as I'm growing up, pursued a journalism degree and writing

about the stuff that I love, animation, comic books, movies,

whatever, Black people, it was my actual writing

about Black Panther that came to the attention of the editors

at Marvel. I was shook.

I was scared.

It was like, oh, OK, here's destiny knocking on your door.

What are you going to do?

Like, you're just put on a Do Not Disturb sign on?

No.

I'm going to see what I can do with this character

that I've loved so much.

When I was writing "Rise of the Black Panther,"

one of the core thematic questions for me was, like,

what do we do with what we inherit?

Right?

Like, that's the question T'Challa faces.

That's the question I personally was facing as a writer.

Talk to me about how you got on this book,

how "Captain America:

Symbol of Truth" came about, and how much of your upbringing

did you bring to keep Sam Wilson feeling like a character

who's like a real-life Black person?

It would be impossible for me to write

a Captain America book that was completely

divorced from social issues.

I, you know, after law school, I worked in public interest law.

I did civil rights work.

The idea that Sam Wilson's background in the comics

is as a social worker, I was like, oh, I know that.

I know that world, a social worker in Harlem.

After law school, I lived in Harlem.

Like, I was on 152nd Street.

I was in Sugar Hill, so, like--

I was like--

I was on 120th and Lenox.

There you go.

There you go.

So it really was--

it really was this cosmic choreography in terms

of me getting on that book.

How do you as an author continue to create narratives

that, like, go to all sorts of exciting places,

but that are exciting not only to yourself,

but to your audience?

Like, do you think about your audience

when you write these books?

Writing a character like T'Challa,

it's like, for a while, he was raised by a single parent,

you know, like I was.

What is it like when somebody new comes into your life,

like Ramonda?

What is it like to mourn a parent?

And that's something that I feel like was

so rarely explored in T'Challa's life, emotional life, right?

Like, N'Yami he didn't get to meet.

What does that void do to you?

You had a loving parent.

So it's serves as such a rich stand-in for the experiences

of Black people all over the world,

especially if you grow up in predominantly White

social systems, the sense of feeling embattled,

trying to hold on to what it means

to be a Black person in the present day and age, right?

Like I said before, the history of those who have gone

before you, all that stuff just is

so potent in the fictional construct of,

like, Wakanda and T'Challa.

It feels like such a missed opportunity

if you don't do that stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The idea that, like, we get to invoke the multiplicity

of our lived experiences as Black people.

Like, you and I have different paths,

different journeys, right?

And one commonality we have is that like--

and it's a commonality we share with our forebearers,

is like we have to fight to get our voices heard.

My dream right now is for there to be some young reader

of "Symbol of Truth" right now whose aspiration is

to pick up the mantle after me.

That would be, like, the pinnacle of the dream for me,

is for there to be a lineage of Black writers,

of Sam Wilson as Cap.

What are some ways that we can inspire and mentor

the next generation of writers?