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  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Good evening. I'm William  Brangham. Geoff Bennett and Amna Nawaz are away.

  • On the "NewsHour" tonight: The  Supreme Court considers the Biden  

  • administration's plan to reduce  pollution drifting between states.

  • Then: A key informant in the  investigation of Hunter Biden  

  • is accused of lying and having ties to Russia.

  • And the future of the United Nationshumanitarian aid agency in Palestine  

  • hangs in the balance after allegations some  employees helped with Hamas October 7 attack.

  • MATTHIAS SCHMALE, Former UNRWA Operations  Director, Gaza: Allegations that UNRWA is  

  • controlled by Hamas need to  be substantiated. Otherwise,  

  • they are allegations for which  there is no proper proof.

  • (BREAK)

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Welcome to the "NewsHour."

  • A top Israeli official is offering  new hope tonight for a deal to  

  • free the hostages in Gaza and pause the  fighting there. Benny Gantz is a member  

  • of the Israeli war cabinet. And he spoke  today at a news conference in Tel Aviv.

  • BENNY GANTZ, Israeli War Cabinet Minister  (through translator): There are ongoing  

  • attempts to promote a new hostage deal, and there  are promising early signs of possible progress. We  

  • will not stop looking for a way, and we will not  miss any opportunity to bring our people home.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Gantz also  warns that, if there is no deal,  

  • fighting will continue into Ramadan, the  Muslim holy month that begins in March.

  • In Gaza, Israeli airstrikes rained down again  overnight, and hospital officials reported at  

  • least 67 Palestinians were killed. Palestinians  said bombs crushed family homes in Rafah,  

  • where more than a million Gazans have fledOne man condemned the world's response,  

  • including Tuesday's U.S. veto  of a U.N. cease-fire resolution.

  • AHMED JUMA, Gaza Strip Resident  (through translator): This veto  

  • was not a surprise. The whole world  has made the decision of committing  

  • a genocide against the Palestinian  people. If all the images across than  

  • 140 days did not push the world to take  action, then what are they waiting for?

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The Hamas-run Gazan  Health Ministry reported the overall  

  • death toll in the territory  now exceeds 29,300 people.

  • Israeli lawmakers today rejected international  pressure for a unilateral declaration of a  

  • Palestinian state. The Knesset sided  overwhelmingly with Prime Minister  

  • Benjamin Netanyahu, who said the statehood issue  must be part of overall peace negotiations.

  • A related question is now before the  world court at The Hague. U.S. State  

  • Department lawyers argued today  that Israel should not be asked  

  • to immediately withdraw from all the all  Palestinian lands that were captured in  

  • 1967 during the Six-Day War. The U.N. court  will eventually issue a nonbinding opinion.

  • In Russia, Alexei Navalny's mother filed  suit against prison officials who've  

  • refused to release her son's remainsThe opposition leader reportedly died  

  • last week at a high-security Arctic  prison. Russian authorities have said  

  • they will hold Navalny's body for two weeks  while they investigate his cause of death.

  • Russia's capture of a city in Eastern Ukraine  has touched off a new exodus in the region.  

  • People are now fleeing areas near Avdiivka  in the Donetsk region after it was taken  

  • by the Russians over the weekend. Many of  the evacuees are elderly and cannot leave  

  • without assistance. Some say they worry  their towns will be blasted into ruins.

  • VALENTYNA KITUSH, Ukrainian Evacuee (through  translator): It's unbearable to endure what  

  • is happening. They are bombarding  and destroying everything. Shall  

  • I wait until they destroy us? I'm leaving  everything behind, home, flat, everything.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Meanwhile, there are signs  that the fall of Avdiivka was a bigger blow to  

  • Ukraine's military than first believed. New  reports indicate that up to 1,000 Ukrainian  

  • troops are missing, including hundreds who  may have been captured by the Russians.

  • A hearing has wrapped up in London, on  whether to green-light the extradition  

  • of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange to  the U.S. Supporters today demanded his  

  • release. They and his defense team maintain  he shouldn't be punished for leaking troves  

  • of documents that exposed U.S. misdeeds in Iraq  and Afghanistan. The U.S. argues Assange put the  

  • lives of intelligence sources at risk. A ruling  isn't expected until March, at the earliest.

  • Farmer protests turn violent in India todayOne protester was killed after farmers fought  

  • with police, who fired tear gas. The  farmers are marching toward New Delhi  

  • to demand higher prices for their cropsAnd in Spain, farmers drove hundreds of  

  • tractors into Madrid to denounce European Union  policies. It was their largest demonstration yet.

  • Back in this country, the gap in campaign cash  between President Biden and former President  

  • Trump is getting wider. The Trump campaign reports  it ended January with $30 million on hand after  

  • spending more than it took in. Biden's reelection  campaign jumped to a surplus of $56 million.

  • And on Wall Street, tech stocks drifted  lower again, while the rest of the market  

  • managed fractional gains. The Dow  Jones industrial average added 48  

  • points to close at 38612. The Nasdaq fell  50 points. The S&P 500 was up six points.

  • Still to come on the "NewsHour": Alabama's Supreme  Court rules that frozen embryos are children;  

  • a new app aims to make traffic stops in  Minnesota safer; the potentially scary  

  • implications of an A.I. tool that creates  extremely realistic video; plus much more.

  • The Supreme Court heard arguments today in  a major environmental case over a rule that  

  • requires states to stop their air pollution  from drifting over to neighboring states.

  • Three states, led by Ohio, are  claiming the rule is too costly,  

  • and they're asking the court to block  the so-called good neighbor plan.

  • Coral Davenport is following all  this closely. She covers energy  

  • and environmental policy at The New York Times.

  • Coral, great to have you back on the program.

  • So, the good neighbor plan, as I mentionedsays that states have to do everything they  

  • can to stop their pollution from  sullying their neighbors' air.  

  • The states that are protesting this rulewhat is it that they don't like about it?

  • CORAL DAVENPORT, The New York Times: So  this rule is the Biden administration  

  • strengthening a rule that was already on  the books from the Obama administration.

  • The Obama rule said that power plants had  to control their pollution that goes over  

  • state lines and pollutes in other states. The  law actually says that governments have to go  

  • back and strengthen this rule every number  of years. The Trump administration did not  

  • do that. The Biden administration went  back, they expanded the rule and said,  

  • we're also going to apply this to a lot of  other industrial pollution, steel mills,  

  • factories, cement plants, so a really  significant expansion of these controls.

  • And this is what the industrial states say,  

  • this is too much. This is going to cost  millions, if not billions of dollars.  

  • It's a burden. It's a tremendous economic  imposition on the engines of our state.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And what is the argument  for it? I mean, I guess broadly speaking,  

  • we could say air pollution is bad. But the  argument for stopping this pollution is what?

  • CORAL DAVENPORT: So, again,  

  • the Clean Air Act specifically stipulates  that the federal government has to do this.

  • It says that there's -- and this is sort of  interesting because it has to do with the  

  • way the winds blow. You have heard the phrase  the westerly winds that blow across the United  

  • States. That's real. So when you have a lot of  air pollution, smog in the middle of the country,  

  • it is very well-documented that winds actually  blow that to the eastern part of the country.

  • So when you have a lot of smog in states  like Ohio and Indiana, it ends up in the  

  • air of Delaware and Connecticut. The  senator from Delaware recently said,  

  • we are the tailpipe of the United States. And  there's a lot of evidence that that's true.

  • So the law created this specific  regulation, essentially saying,  

  • you states in the middle of the  country where this is coming from,  

  • you have to clean up to protect your neighborsWell, that's part of it. And the other part  

  • is that there's a lot of evidence that this  smog is really devastating for human health.

  • The EPA finds that this rule would indeed be  very costly. It would cost the industry about  

  • $900 million a year to comply. That's hugeIt also finds that it would save the economy,  

  • in terms of work days, sick days, increased  asthma, respiratory diseases, it would save  

  • the economy about $13 billion a year in costs  that are measured in public health impacts.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And that seems like  a pretty clear cost-benefit analysis.

  • CORAL DAVENPORT: It is a magnitude of difference.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The court took up this  case on what's known as its emergency  

  • docket. And several of the justices  today, including Ketanji Brown Jackson,  

  • seemed to take issue with thatasking why this was so urgent.

  • We talked with our Supreme Court analyst,  

  • Marcia Coyle, about this earlierHere's what she had to say about this.

  • MARCIA COYLE: Justice Jackson said  she didn't see the emergency. In fact,  

  • she wondered if this was not justcase of the states and industry wanting  

  • not to obey the law as the lawsuit  proceeded through the D.C. Circuit.

  • So what the court has is very unusual here  right now. They always claim that they are  

  • court of review, not first view. And they  have nothing to review in front of them,  

  • because no lower court has yet to look  at the merits of the good neighbor plan.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And yet the court  seemed very eager to hear this.

  • CORAL DAVENPORT: And it's very surprising.

  • One reason is that the entities that are  specifically the plaintiffs in this case  

  • are the newly covered entitiesSo the power plants had already  

  • been covered. This regulation expands  the rules and the controls to steel,  

  • cement, power plants factories. Those  rules don't kick in, in until 2026.

  • And yet -- so they're not...

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Directly impacted now.

  • CORAL DAVENPORT: They're not directly  impacted. And yet they brought this  

  • case to the Supreme Court on this emergency  filing, saying that this is going to have  

  • an emergency impact right now and that  the rule essentially needs to be frozen,  

  • not implemented at all, until  all the litigation is complete.

  • But it is extremely unusual for the Supreme  Court to even hear a case like this. And that  

  • is kind of part of a trend that we're  starting to see in this Supreme Court.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: But this court has shown a  

  • good deal of skepticism towardslot of environmental regulations.

  • CORAL DAVENPORT: Well, that's always true ofconservative court historically, ideologically.  

  • There's more justices appointed by Republican  presidents on this court. That's not surprising.

  • Here's what's new. This is the third in  cases that they are taking where, again,  

  • the regulation is not fully implementedLast year, the Supreme Court heard a case  

  • on a water regulation that was not yet  implemented, not yet fully on the books.  

  • Very surprising. Again, analysts said they  were surprised that they took that case.

  • They ended up choosing to sharply limit the  regulation. So even before the government was  

  • done writing the regulation, the court had told  it, you have to really rein back what you're  

  • doing. Same thing happened the year before  on a major climate change regulation. Again,  

  • very unusual for the court to have even taken  up the case before the regulation was even done.

  • The court told the government, you're really  restricted in what kind of regulating you do.  

  • That regulation still isn't out. But the  government has -- is taking its marching  

  • orders from the court on how it can write  these rules. This is a new trend where  

  • it's not just conservative justices  expressing skepticism of regulation.

  • It's taking it to a new level of  ruling on these policies before  

  • they're even on the books and dictating to  the federal agencies what they can then do,  

  • kind of handcuffing them before  they're even done with their work.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And it sounds  like, from the arguments today,  

  • that the same thing might happen again.

  • Coral Davenport of The New York Timesalways great to see you. Thank you.

  • CORAL DAVENPORT: Always great to be here.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: An informant who's  been charged with lying to the FBI about  

  • President Biden recently told law enforcement  he's been in contact with Russian agents.

  • That informant's story is at the center of  

  • Republicans' ongoing effort  to impeach President Biden.

  • Laura Barron-Lopez has more.

  • LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: In a court filing last  night, special counsel David Weiss said ex-FBI  

  • informant Alexander Smirnov told them he met with  Russian operatives as recently as last December.

  • In the filing, prosecutors wrote:  "Smirnov admitted that officials  

  • associated with Russian intelligence  were involved in passing a story  

  • about Businessperson 1," referring to  President Biden's son Hunter Biden.

  • Prosecutors say that story of a Ukrainian  energy firm bribing President Biden and his  

  • son is a complete fabrication being  used to interfere in U.S. elections.

  • Joining me to discuss the  implications is Ryan Goodman,  

  • former special counsel for  the Department of Defense.

  • Ryan, thank you so much for joining. What's  the big takeaway from this latest revelation?

  • RYAN GOODMAN, Former Department of Defense  Special Counsel: So, the big takeaway is that  

  • Mr. Smirnov appears to have been acting  as an agent of Russian intelligence.

  • And, according to the Department  of Justice's filing in court,  

  • he was knowingly passing on false derogatory  information about President Biden and Hunter  

  • Biden to the FBI, and that he's been  doing so recently and actively. So  

  • that's the kind of bombshell of that  court filing by the Justice Department.

  • LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Alexander  Smirnov first made this raw,  

  • unverified allegation in  2020. It was not corroborated.

  • So why is David Weiss, who isTrump-appointed U.S. attorney,  

  • deciding to bring these charges nowAnd, also, why do you think Smirnov is  

  • just revealing last week that he's been  in contact with Russian intel officials.

  • RYAN GOODMAN: So it seems as though Mr. Weiss  has been building a case against Mr. Smirnov  

  • and that the FBI knew along the way that MrSmirnov was telling them lies and fabrications.

  • They were able to corroborate in a certain  sense that these were falsehoods because  

  • his chronology didn't line up. The  times he said that he met with the  

  • Burisma company didn't line up. He made  an allegation about Hunter Biden's being  

  • in a country that Hunter Biden never  visited. So, I think it's all about  

  • building that case to be able to prosecute  him fully for false statements to the FBI.

  • And then now we have this mountain of new  evidence and allegations in the court filing  

  • because the Justice Department is trying  to implore the judges to not release Mr.  

  • Smirnov before trial. So that's where all  this new information comes in. And Smirnov  

  • is revealing it to the government after  arrest. So I think that it's important  

  • to know that, because, at that pointhe should have known the jig is up.

  • So it wasn't as though it was part of  the prior practice of him trying to  

  • lie to the FBI. It's him kind of coming  clean after arrest and then knowingly  

  • telling the FBI as best as he could  his contacts with Russian officials.

  • LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: The unverified  allegation made by Alexander Smirnov  

  • was in what's called a 1023 form, where  the FBI takes in those raw allegations.

  • And it was the foundation, that formfor the House Republican impeachment  

  • probe. Just last month, House Judiciary  Chairman Jim Jordan said that that form,  

  • that raw allegation, was the heart of their probe.

  • REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): But the most corroborating  evidence we have is that 1023 form from this  

  • highly credible confidential human sourceaccording to U.S. attorney Scott Brady.

  • LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Politics  and impeachment aside, Ryan,  

  • from a national security perspective, what are the  implications of apparent Russian disinformation  

  • being filtered through top Republican elected  officials and media outlets like FOX News?

  • RYAN GOODMAN: So, in a certain sensethat is the goal of the Russian Kremlin  

  • disinformation campaigns inside the  United States. They want to divide  

  • us. They want to upset and overturn  in a certain sense our institution.

  • So if they can do something as much as fuel an  impeachment process against a sitting president,  

  • that's already a success. And I think that's  -- to me, when I read this court filing,  

  • was one of the most alarming parts  of it, just how much the Russian  

  • intelligence operation had in some sense  succeeded in jump-starting this process.

  • And even when Speaker McCarthy, speaker at  the time, announced the impeachment process,  

  • he referred specifically to Mr. Smirnov's what are  now understood to be lies to the FBI, because that  

  • was also the heart of the allegations. So it's  deeply concerning as a national security matter.

  • LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: What do  you think the implications  

  • are for the House Republican impeachment inquiry?

  • RYAN GOODMAN: I have to think that the Republicans  

  • themselves would have to go  back to the drawing board.

  • This really does undermine a fundamental  building block of the impeachment. So many  

  • of the allegations about President Biden having  been bribed are coming from Mr. Smirnov. So many  

  • of the statements made by House Republicans for  -- in favor of impeachment are traceable to him.

  • LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: In this filing, special  counsel David Weiss said -- quote -- "The  

  • misinformation he is spreading is not  confined to 2020. He," being Smirnov,  

  • "is actively peddling new  lies that could impact U.S.  

  • elections after meeting with Russian  intelligence officials in November."

  • Do you think that the damage is done  and that this is just the tip of the  

  • iceberg when it comes to potential  Russian interference ahead of 2024?

  • RYAN GOODMAN: So I think a lot of damage  has already been done. He really has  

  • in a certain sense, this particular  individual, had an enormous effect on  

  • our political psyche and what's happened  on the Hill and the corridors of power.

  • So I think that's already happened. And  I also think it is a tip of the iceberg,  

  • but what's so astonishing  about the court filing is,  

  • unlike the prior instances in which this goes  according to the Russian playbook, we have  

  • direct information about Russian intelligence  officials being right there in this operation.

  • Before, it was about cutouts, like  Mr. Smirnov himself. But here it  

  • is Russian officials. In fact, Russian  Official No. 1 is identified as somebody  

  • who has a direct line to the highest  levels of the Russian government. And  

  • we can all understand what that meansThat's what the DOJ says in the filing.

  • So I think this is in a certain sense a tip of the  iceberg. This is -- there's no way in which this  

  • is the only aspect of this Russian disinformation  campaign. It's just giving us an indication of  

  • what they're trying to do to the country during  especially a presidential election cycle.

  • LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Ryan, as we talk about this,  

  • Congress is in the middle of a heated debate  about aiding Ukraine against Russian invasion.

  • And just last week, the leading GOP presidential  candidate, former President Donald Trump,  

  • said that he would encourage Russia to  invade NATO allies if they don't spend  

  • enough on defense. So how does this latest  revelation of the ex-FBI informant having  

  • connections to Russian intelligence  officials fit into the bigger picture?

  • RYAN GOODMAN: So I think it's part of  Vladimir Putin's overall strategic plan.

  • His main goal is to do something like divide  the West, certainly to divide NATO or have NATO  

  • break up at a certain point. So, at some level,  I think it is to do what he's done in the past,  

  • which is to support a candidate  who has that as part of their  

  • agenda. It is to undermine the competing  candidate, which is part of his agenda.

  • And even if he doesn't succeed at, in facthaving one of them win and the other one lose,  

  • the idea that he can inject so much distrust  into the body politic in the United States  

  • around these issues of U.S. relationships  with Ukraine, former vice president,  

  • current president's relationship  with Ukraine, that's what he wants.

  • LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: That's Ryan  Goodman, a professor of law at New  

  • York University and a former special  counsel to the Defense Department.

  • Thank you so much for your time.

  • RYAN GOODMAN: Thank you.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The U.N. acknowledged  today that aid deliveries into Gaza have  

  • dropped dramatically, threateningpopulation where hunger is spreading.

  • That aid is delivered by a U.N. agency that Israel  

  • recently accused of acting -- quote --  "under the authorization of Hamas." Some  

  • Israelis have called for its abolitionand the U.S. has frozen its funding.

  • Nick Schifrin examines the  question and fate of UNRWA.

  • NICK SCHIFRIN: When Israel was born, so was UNRWAThe U.N. created the U.N. Relief and Works Agency  

  • to serve three-quarters-of-a-million Palestinians  who fled or were forced out of what is now Israel;  

  • 75 years later, UNRWA serves their descendantsnearly six million Palestinians in Gaza and  

  • across the region, with schools, health clinicsand, especially today, humanitarian assistance.

  • But during Hamas' October 7 terrorist attackan Israeli dossier says four UNRWA staffers  

  • were involved in kidnapping Israelis, six  UNRWA staffers in total infiltrated into  

  • Israel, and it said UNRWA acts under the  authorization and supervision of Hamas.

  • And underneath UNRWA headquarters in GazaIsrael said it found a Hamas tunnel. In response,  

  • the U.S. and Germany, UNRWA's largest  donors and a dozen more countries,  

  • have frozen funding. UNRWA saysif the funding doesn't resume,  

  • it will have to stop delivering aid  in Gaza by the end of the month.

  • For two perspectives on the allegations  against and the future of UNRWA,  

  • we turn to reserve Israeli Colonel Grisha  Yakubovich, who was the former head of the  

  • Civil Department of Coordination of Government  Activities in the Territories, known as COGAT,  

  • from 2012 to 2016. He is a current expert with  the Israeli think tank The MirYam Institute.

  • And Matthias Schmale was the UNRWA  director of operations in Gaza from  

  • 2017 to 2021. He now advises the U.N.  Development Regional Office in Ethiopia.

  • Thank you very much. Welcome  both of you to the "NewsHour."

  • Matthias Schmale, let me start with you.

  • The dossier that Israel has released on Hamas  on October the 7th that I just referred to not  

  • only refers to UNRWA staffers' activity on  October 7, but it says that 10 percent of  

  • UNRWA's 12,000 employees in Gaza are either  members of Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

  • When you ran UNRWA in Gaza, you actually had to  fire some half-a-dozen members for their links  

  • to Hamas. Do you find the Israeli dossier  credible? And what's your response to it?

  • MATTHIAS SCHMALE, Former UNRWA Operations  Director, Gaza: To the best of my  

  • knowledge -- I have not seen the dossier  itself. And to the best of my knowledge,  

  • UNRWA itself has not been given the dossier and/or  substantial evidence to back up the claims that up  

  • to 13 UNRWA staff were involved in the horror  that was inflicted in Israel on October 7.

  • Secondly, based on my own experience of almost  four years in Gaza, I find the claim that 10  

  • percent of UNRWA staff are active members of  Hamas grossly exaggerated. My senior management  

  • team consisted of about 12 to 15 people, most  of them Palestinian. And in my experience,  

  • again, over four years, none of them were  closely linked or had sympathies for Hamas.

  • NICK SCHIFRIN: Grisha Yakubovich, is it grossly  

  • exaggerated to suggest 10  percent of UNRWA's Hamas?

  • COL. GRISHA YAKUBOVICH, IDF Reserves: When  the IDF says that 13 UNRWA employees were  

  • involved in the horror on October 7,  so the IDF has the evidence. And it  

  • will not -- nobody will declare something like  that because now we have this desire to say it.

  • Now, if you remember the tunnel that was found  under the U.N. -- the UNRWA headquarters,  

  • all the technology underneath the headquarters  is something that will not be built in a year  

  • or two years. It's something that should  take at least five years, six years minimum.

  • This is a huge tunnel with a ton of technologythat it's all from Iran. And it's not even logic  

  • that nobody would see that or know that. One  of the problems UNRWA in Gaza that, during the  

  • last years, the international staff actually  reached to minimal, minimal, minimal people.

  • And all the 12,000 officials, I thinkalmost 99 percent of them were locals.  

  • So nobody would actually check if you are  in Hamas (INAUDIBLE) Fatah or whatever.

  • NICK SCHIFRIN: Matthias Schmale, so respond  to that, the idea that the infiltration,  

  • so to speak, of UNRWA literally underneath  headquarters by Hamas is not something that  

  • happened recently. It would take yearsand, therefore, UNRWA would know about it.

  • MATTHIAS SCHMALE: Look, during my time, it was  evident that there are tunnels all over Gaza.

  • You might also know that a former Prime  Minister of Israel Ehud Barak actually  

  • acknowledged that part of the tunnels  under Shifa Hospital were actually  

  • built by Israel during their time  of direct occupation of Gaza. So,  

  • no surprises that there are tunnels  underneath many installations in Gaza.

  • What puzzles me is that, in my almost four  years of relatively regular contact with COGAT,  

  • the Israeli administration for the  Gaza Strip, the occupied territories,  

  • this was never brought up as an issuenor was it brought up as an issue that  

  • Israel had evidence of 10 percent of UNRWA  staff being proactive members of Hamas.

  • What I was told is, we need UNRWAYou are doing good work. We don't  

  • like what you say at times publicly, but  the services you provide are essential.

  • NICK SCHIFRIN: Grisha Yakubovichthere is a debate in Israel,  

  • of course, whether UNRWA should be replaced.

  • Do Israeli officials privately tell UNRWA and  other people that, yes, they do need UNRWA?

  • COL. GRISHA YAKUBOVICH: Well, I  want to be very, very honest here.

  • Yes, UNRWA is an important player when it comes  to provide aid to the people in Gaza. We are not  

  • saying that the people in Gaza should not -- that  they don't deserve this aid. The thing here is  

  • that it's about time that it will be done through  a Palestinian sovereignty in Gaza and not UNRWA.

  • Nobody actually really needs UNRWA. You can  actually do the same thing by giving the money,  

  • giving the aid to an entity that will rule  there, control there, and be responsible.  

  • The moment you have UNRWA there, by the waydoing a great job during the whole -- those  

  • whole years. I'm not saying that UNRWA is  not an important player that provides food,  

  • aid, medical care and treatment  and treating the refugee camps.

  • This is not something that I can take away from  UNRWA. I have been working with them. And we  

  • even encouraged them in the past to do it. The  problem is when that organization is used, the  

  • U.N. flags are used by a terror organization as  a cover for terror activity. That's the problem.

  • NICK SCHIFRIN: Matthias Schmaleis UNRWA used as cover for terror,  

  • and is there a possible replacement?

  • MATTHIAS SCHMALE: I have seen no evidenceeither in my time on the ground in Gaza of  

  • almost four years or since, that suggests  UNRWA is used or controlled by Hamas.

  • In fact, in 2014, so before my time, we  ourselves at one point discovered weapons  

  • in a school that was abandoned because of  military activities. We ourselves alerted  

  • Israel and then clarified with Hamas  that those weapons had to be removed.

  • So we have over the years done everything to  protect the integrity of the organization.  

  • I said during my time in Gaza  that no one, including myself,  

  • wants UNRWA to continue another decade, another  70 years. UNRWA is not there out of self-interest.

  • The only reason UNRWA exists is because there is,  

  • as yet, no just solution accepted by both  sides. The minute there is a just solution,  

  • Palestinians have a state they can call  their own, UNRWA will cease to exist.

  • NICK SCHIFRIN: Grisha Yakubovich, take  on that point that Matthias Schmale just  

  • made. That is that he and other people  in charge of UNRWA have done enough,  

  • have done as much as they can to  try and keep Hamas outside of UNRWA.

  • Has UNRWA, has the U.N. done enough?

  • COL. GRISHA YAKUBOVICH: There should  be an end to UNRWA's work in Gaza. And  

  • it has nothing to do with the Palestinian state.

  • It can be with a Palestinian entity  that will take responsibility and  

  • they should mature. They can get the moneyno problem with that. They can get the aid,  

  • but they should take responsibility  on themselves, so they will not use  

  • the cover of a U.N.-imported organization to  use it and eventually to use it for terror,  

  • because this is actually what happened during  this horror that happened on October 7.

  • NICK SCHIFRIN: Grisha Yakubovich, Matthias  Schmale, thank you very much to you both.

  • COL. GRISHA YAKUBOVICH: Thank you, guys.

  • MATTHIAS SCHMALE: Thank you.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: A decision from the  Alabama Supreme Court has alarmed doctors,  

  • patients and reproductive rights advocates.

  • On Friday, the court ruled that frozen embryos  created through in vitro fertilization, or IVF,  

  • are legally children and thus protectedThe designation of personhood could have  

  • significant repercussions for reproductive rights.

  • Stephanie Sy looks at the  questions raised by this ruling.

  • STEPHANIE SY: William, this issue made  its way to Alabama's Supreme Court after  

  • three families sued when their frozen  embryos were taken from a clinic and  

  • then accidentally destroyed. They sued under  the state's Wrongful Death of a Minor Act.

  • Alabama's High Court asserted the law  applies to all children, born and unborn,  

  • including, to the shock of many, frozen  embryos. Today, the University of Alabama  

  • Birmingham Health System said it is pausing IVF  procedures because of a fear of prosecution.

  • For more, I'm joined by Mary Ziegler,  

  • a legal historian and expert on  reproduction and health care.

  • Mary, thank you, as alwaysfor being with the "NewsHour."

  • About 2 percent of all babies born in this country  

  • are conceived through assisted  reproductive technology. What are  

  • the concerns about how this decision will  affect reproductive rights and options?

  • MARY ZIEGLER, University of CaliforniaDavis: Well, I think the decision casts  

  • a shadow on a lot of options that  usually are available through IVF.

  • So, for example, if people have extra embryosthey can no longer be destroyed. They can no  

  • longer be donated for research in  Alabama. It's not even clear what  

  • the legality of storing them would be or if  potentially they will need to be implanted.

  • And then there's just the simple fact, as we  have seen with the University of Alabama in  

  • Birmingham, the threat that, if embryos  are inadvertently damaged or destroyed,  

  • that could lead to lawsuits or  even to criminal prosecutions,  

  • which I think is going to have a tremendous  chilling effect on fertility care in the state.

  • STEPHANIE SY: Mary, I want to read an excerpt  from the chief justice's concurring opinion.

  • "The people of Alabama," he says, "have  declared the public policy of this state  

  • to be that unborn human life is sacred. We  believe that each human being from moment  

  • of conception is made in the image of God  created by him to reflect his likeness."

  • So the chief justice there invoking Scripture from  

  • the Bible in a legal rulingWhat is your take on that?

  • MARY ZIEGLER: Well, I think this is a sign of  the ascendance of the Christian legal movement,  

  • which I think is distinct from  what we're used to thinking of,  

  • right? It's not the Federalist Society.

  • It's part of a conservative legal movement  that asserts that the Constitution is a  

  • Christian document, that the nation isChristian nation and that there should be  

  • no daylight really between church and state  when it comes to interpretation of the law.

  • And the chief justice was making the  point that, in his view, the people of  

  • Alabama have already embraced that positionIt's striking to see this in a court ruling,  

  • right? This is not coming from a social movementAnd I think it'll shift the Overton window and  

  • make it more likely that we will see more  language of this kind from other courts.

  • STEPHANIE SY: The overturn -- Overton, of  course, being what overturned Roe v. Wade.

  • We spoke to an OB-GYN and fertility  specialist, Dr. Aimee Eyvazzadeh,  

  • about this. And she said she is horrified  by this decision and what it will mean.

  • DR. AIMEE EYVAZZADEH, Fertility SpecialistEmbryos are precious cells. They're very  

  • precious. They have the potential to turn intobaby, the potential. But an embryo is not a child,  

  • is not a baby. They have a chance  to become one. But anyone who knows  

  • even the smallest bit about IVF knows  that an embryo is a chance for a baby.

  • The concern here is that patients  who are doing testing in Alabama,  

  • they might be forced to use embryos that they  didn't want to use. They might not be allowed  

  • to freeze embryos and they might have to transfer  everything they have. It might change how you do  

  • IVF, where people will be freezing eggs and  only creating embryos enough to transverse,  

  • they have none left over, or what we're  seeing now, IVF is going to halt completely.

  • STEPHANIE SY: Those are some of the  concerns that you also brought up.

  • But 11 states have passed laws defining personhood  as beginning at fertilization. So should women who  

  • are doing IVF or seeking IVF treatment be worried  that this Alabama decision may affect them?

  • MARY ZIEGLER: I think it's hard to say, right?

  • I mean, so there are some states where  personhood is just -- it's not clear if it's  

  • legally operative. It's sort of a policy that's  been declared by the state, but it's unclear  

  • how much how teeth -- how -- if it has teeth in  terms of actually affecting people concretely.

  • But I think, again, because some court had to  be first, someone had to be the first to say we  

  • think that a fetus or an embryo is a person, and  now that the Alabama Supreme Court has done this,  

  • I think we would expect to see either legislators  or state courts in equally conservative states  

  • with similar personhood policies being  more willing to make the same kind of move.

  • So I think this is something that should  concern people who are pursuing infertility  

  • treatment in all of those states and  indeed elsewhere in the country too.

  • STEPHANIE SY: Does it end with  this decision, or is there any  

  • legal pathway forward, especially given  that Roe v. Wade has been overturned?

  • Does this run afoul at all of any federal  rights or other constitutional rights?

  • MARY ZIEGLER: It's hard to say, right?

  • I mean, the Alabama Supreme Court was trying  pretty hard to make this a state court ruling  

  • and to say this was about the interpretation  of the state wrongful death of a minor law,  

  • which is not something ordinarily that the  U.S. Supreme Court would become involved in.

  • You could imagine federal constitutional claims  raised by people who want to pursue IVF. But this  

  • is a very conservative U.S. Supreme Court  that's going to be unlikely to recognize  

  • new reproductive rights under federal lawlike a right to procreate. So I think, while  

  • that's theoretically possible, the Alabama Supreme  Court is likely to be the last stop in this case.

  • STEPHANIE SY: Mary, you are really an  expert on what has happened since the  

  • overturning of Roe v. Wade. Where would  you put this decision in the spectrum of  

  • reactions we have seen since the Overton decision?

  • MARY ZIEGLER: Well, I think it's a big  indicator of what's coming next, right?

  • So I think a lot of Americans believe that  when the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade  

  • in the Dobbs decision, that that was the  end, right, that the people who believed  

  • that a fetus or an embryo was a person had  won and they would move on to other issues.

  • In fact, I think this decision  is a reminder that personhood,  

  • right, this idea that a fetus or  embryo is a rights-holding person,  

  • has been a motivating reason for many people  to join the anti-abortion movement really since  

  • its inception in the 1960s. And I think  we're going to see much more of this.

  • So this is sort of a sign of what's to come, in  addition to something I think that will have a  

  • tremendous effect on people who are seeking  to become parents in the state of Alabama.

  • STEPHANIE SY: Mary Ziegler, thank you.

  • MARY ZIEGLER: Thanks for having me.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The murder of George Floyd  

  • thrust Minnesota into the center of  the debate over police misconduct.

  • As Fred de Sam Lazaro reports,  

  • one effort coming out of that painful  period hopes to make traffic stops safer.

  • It's part of our coverage of Race Matters  issues and Fred's series Agents for Change.

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: For decadesthere have been tense relations  

  • between law enforcement authorities  and Minnesota's communities of color,  

  • punctuated by high profile  police-involved shootings.

  • MAN: Sir, I have to tell you,  I do have a firearm on me.

  • MAN: OK. OK.

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: It was the 2016 death of  Philando Castile during a traffic stop near  

  • St. Paul and the protests that followed that  brought three 20-something Black men together.

  • MYCHAL FRELIX, Chief Operating officerTurnSignl: I grew up playing with the  

  • Castiles, as did Andre. And I remember evenconversation that Andre and I had where we said,  

  • how can we do something to  be a part of the solution?

  • ANDRE CREIGHTON, Chief Financial  Officer, TurnSignl: And I think,  

  • when George Floyd occurred, the realization of  what we needed to do really came to fruition.

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Floyd's murder set off a light  

  • bulb for Andre Creighton and Mychal Frelixeach with MBAs, and Jazz Hampton, a lawyer.

  • It also cracked open the door to start up  funding for their idea, as venture capitalists,  

  • philanthropists and many corporations pledged  their support to addressing issues of race and  

  • equity. The three left corporate careers  to launch an app they called TurnSignl.

  • WOMAN: If you're pulled oversimply launch the TurnSignl app.

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: It's marketing slogan is:  "We Put an Attorney in the Passenger Seat."

  • WOMAN: Hi, Thomas. I'm an attorney with TurnSignl.

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: The company now has  some 50,000 scribes at $60 a year, and  

  • 400 lawyers in 50 states have signed on. They do  not act as attorneys, at least not yet. Instead,  

  • they are given specific instructions by TurnSignl  on how to guide the driver to de-escalate.

  • MYCHAL FRELIX: We built this training to not only  have attorneys look for those verbal and nonverbal  

  • cues, but really just be there for our clients  to help calm them down in that interaction.

  • JAZZ HAMPTON, Chief Executive OfficerTurnSignl: But the number of times,  

  • for example, Philando Castile was  pulled over, it was in the 40s,  

  • right? That's a lot of times to be  pulled over, so people can be frustrated.

  • And it's all about how we can tell  them that we're here to give them  

  • peace of mind in the momentbecause, if they escalate,  

  • then the officer will escalate. This isn't  a court of law. It's the side of the road.

  • NYASHA OPERANA, Attorney: My goal is to make  sure that both parties return home safe.

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Minneapolis  attorney Nyasha Operana says her  

  • legal credentials bring extra credibility  to her value as an observer. She says her  

  • virtual presence has helped lower the temperature.

  • NYASHA OPERANA: I have had several interactions  on both ends, where, one, either the driver was  

  • emotional, upset, trying to prove a pointupset at the officer for pulling them over.

  • And we have been able to even tell officers,  

  • can you please give me 30 seconds with this  driver, calm that driver down, and it's worked.

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: If the driver decides  later to take the incident to court,  

  • they have the option to contact the attorneyThat potential business is one incentive for  

  • TurnSignl's lawyers, who pay an annual  fee of $1,000 to be listed on the app.

  • But Operana says there's more.

  • NYASHA OPERANA: I do this becausethink its important for the community,  

  • especially as a group that might not always have  access to justice in the same manner that other  

  • people would. We want people to be able to trust  the police. We want police to feel safe as well.

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: TurnSignl's  founders say they regularly seek  

  • meetings with law enforcement agencies to  explain the app and raise its visibility,  

  • so it's not perceived as a threat or antagonistic.

  • MAN: What's going on?

  • ANDRE CREIGHTON: Pulled over for speeding.

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: And co-founder Andre Creighton  just happens to have a recent personal experience  

  • to demonstrate, when he was pulled over in  suburban Minneapolis and got a lawyer on the app.

  • ANDRE CREIGHTON: Yes. Yes, sir.

  • MAN: OK. Ask him -- ask him -- if  he's going to give you a ticket,  

  • ask him to please make it out  for 64, anything under 65.

  • ANDRE CREIGHTON: He's not walking back with  papers, so -- well, actually, we will see.

  • MAN: Who is that, your attorney?

  • ANDRE CREIGHTON: Yes, my attorney with TurnSignl.

  • MAN: You called your attorney  over a speeding ticket?

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Did you get  a ticket? Did you deserve it?

  • ANDRE CREIGHTON: I did not getticket. I probably did deserve a ticket.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: However, studies show people  of color are more likely than white drivers to  

  • receive a ticket or be searched or arrestedAbout 30 percent of drivers killed in traffic  

  • stops in America are Black, more than twice  their proportion in the general population.

  • We have had some real difficulty finding  TurnSignl app users who are willing to  

  • share their stories publicly. Most were afraid  that they would be targets of future harassment.  

  • We did find one individual who lives on  the East Coast who was willing to share,  

  • so long as we use only the audio  portion of our Zoom interview.

  • MAN: He was very, very, very aggressive. But  

  • when he noticed that I turn my  TurnSignl, he calms his voice.

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: A West African  immigrant, he denies any wrongdoing,  

  • but he did get a ticket and paid the  fine. But between the initial stop and  

  • writing the citation, he says, it  was the officer who de-escalated.

  • MAN: A white guy who is talking to a Black male.

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: So, the police officer  observed a white face on the app, the lawyer?

  • MAN: Yes. Yes.

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: You fear that, if you talk  to us, if you go public, you might be targeted.

  • MAN: Yes, I would be a target, because  those who are powerless remain powerless.

  • SETH STOUGHTON, University of  South Carolina: We continue  

  • to layer technology on top of what is  ultimately not a technological problem.

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Criminology and criminal  justice professor Seth Stoughton is skeptical  

  • of how much impact the app will  have on entrenched social issues.

  • SETH STOUGHTON: We did the same thing with body  cameras. We did the same thing with dash cameras.

  • Dash cameras, if we go back into the late  '90s, early 2000s, here we are 24 years  

  • later still struggling with the issue  of racial profiling and traffic stops.  

  • I think the app is probably most promising  when it comes to making people feel better.

  • ROSELINE FRIEDRICH, Business OwnerAnd this is all handmade stuff.

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: For some users, feeling better  makes all the difference. Roseline Friedrich,  

  • who owns a boutique store in St. Paulhasn't used the app during a traffic stop,  

  • but says she feels safer knowing it's available.

  • ROSELINE FRIEDRICH: Every time I have  like a weird interaction with the police,  

  • or like during traffic stop stuff, I'm a brown  person. I immediately go into -- having it on my  

  • phone at all times makes me feel like I don't ever  have to worry about an officer pulling me over.

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: That peace of mind  also pays a public health dividend,  

  • says TurnSignl's Mychal Frelix.

  • MYCHAL FRELIX: Racism is a public  health crisis. And where you live,  

  • and where you work and where you play factor  into your overall health as a human being.  

  • And so there's a lot of organizations  that still truly do believe in that.

  • FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Blue Cross Blue  Shield of Minnesota is among several  

  • companies and philanthropies that cover  the app's subscription cost for anyone  

  • earning less than $40,000 a yearsome 40 percent of all subscribers.

  • The start-up has met its goal so far, and hope is,  

  • as it gets into more and more carsbegins to turn a profit in two years.

  • For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Fred  de Sam Lazaro in Minneapolis.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Fred's reporting ispartnership with the Under-Told Stories  

  • Project at the University  of St. Thomas in Minnesota.

  • I want to show you some video.

  • Look at that adorable puppy trying to  navigate those window sills in Italy,  

  • or this woman strolling at night  through downtown Tokyo, or this,  

  • a street parade celebrating the Chinese  lunar new year. None of these is real.  

  • They're 100 percent generated by an artificial  intelligence program created by OpenAI called  

  • Sora. And they were created with a very simple  text prompt, just a sentence or two saying,  

  • make a video of a stylish woman dressed  in black walking down a street in Tokyo.

  • And these are the results. The implications of  this technology, of being able to create extremely  

  • realistic-looking video with nothing more than  a few words of suggestion, is one of the more  

  • remarkable and potentially scary developments  we have seen so far in artificial intelligence.

  • Oren Etzioni studies A.I. and its  implications. He's the founder  

  • of TrueMedia.Org, an organization that  fights against A.I.-based disinformation.

  • Oren Etzioni, thank you so much for being here.

  • Before we get to the implications  of this, I wonder, when you first  

  • saw those videos and knew how they  were created, what was your reaction?

  • OREN ETZIONI, Founder, TrueMedia.Org:  I was absolutely terrified.

  • It's the future and it's come very fast  and a lot sooner than any of us expected.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So, terrified. I have to say,  

  • I was at first struck by just --  I couldn't believe that they were  

  • able to make such extraordinarily realistic  videos with such simple prompts like that.

  • Why does it terrify you?

  • OREN ETZIONI: What terrifies me is  deepfakes, is the use of this technology,  

  • which, of course, has many positive usesbut the use of it to create forgeries,  

  • and particularly coming up on one of the  most consequential elections in history.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So walk  me through some of those.

  • Like, sketch out some of the kinds of things  that you worry this technology could be used for.

  • OREN ETZIONI: We have already had robocalls in  

  • New Hampshire that were supposed to be  by President Biden, but they weren't.

  • That's nothing compared to seeing videos on social  

  • media of different candidates  doing things that didn't happen.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, yes, you could  certainly see a late-breaking circumstance  

  • right before an election, as you're sayingwhere some nefarious actor posts a video.

  • I mean, there is just something that is  so convincing about this kind of video.

  • OREN ETZIONI: We're visual animals. You seepolitical candidate being rushed to the hospital.  

  • You see talking heads getting on televisionhis doctor saying, it doesn't look good.

  • But it's all fake. And you can seelot of it coming at once. We used to  

  • have state actors doing this, but  now practically anybody can do it.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, the -- what  is the solution for this? I mean,  

  • some of the bigger companies say that they  will put these so-called watermarks, sort  

  • of transparent image that will be imprinted on  the video to signal that it is generated by A.I.

  • But not everyone's going to do that,  

  • certainly not the bad actors. What is the  -- what do -- how do we get around this?

  • OREN ETZIONI: There's no silver bullet.

  • The problem with watermarks is, what if they're  using a model that doesn't have watermarks,  

  • doesn't have these identifying  characteristics? We are trying  

  • to build detection technology at TrueMedia.Org,  

  • so if you upload a video or social media  post, we can assess whether it's true or fake.

  • But that can be circumvented as  well. We need better regulations.  

  • We need better education. And  we need everybody to chip in.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, there are times  where you can see the fakery. I mean,  

  • A.I. seems to have a hard time depicting  human hands for some reason. And even  

  • OpenAI on Sora posted some examples that  are clearly where the software is off.

  • But isn't it just going to be this  constant escalating arms race of new  

  • creations and then the trying to play  catchup with detecting that fakery?

  • OREN ETZIONI: This is moving so fast, it's  going to get worse before it gets better.

  • And with low-resolution video that  looks like it's shot by a phone,  

  • you often will not be able to  tell whether this is fake or real.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, right nowright, I'm talking to you via Skype,  

  • but you're sitting in Mexico. It's hard to  know that that's really you sitting there.

  • OREN ETZIONI: Well, we had an instance of  a scam where somebody gave away $25 million  

  • because he thought he was talking  to his colleagues on a video call.

  • It's absolutely a case of be careful  what your eyes are telling you.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Congress and the  White House have been debating what  

  • rules or regulations that they could  do to try to help solve this issue.

  • Do you think that there is  a tool or law that could  

  • come out of Washington that might address this?

  • OREN ETZIONI: We are seeing laws and  regulations coming out of the states  

  • already passed in several statesincluding California, Washington,  

  • Minnesota, et cetera, prohibiting deepfakes  30 days, 90 days before the election.

  • So I do think that there are things we  can put in place. I don't know if they  

  • will come out of Washington, but they will be  in place. It won't solve the problem because  

  • foreign adversaries can do this sort of thing as  well. We need to step up and do whatever we can.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So you think the  genie is sort of out of the bottle here?

  • OREN ETZIONI: Genie is out  of the bottle. It's just a  

  • question of how much damage it'll  do in what's a very close election.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All rightOren Etzioni of TrueMedia.org,  

  • if that really is you sitting there, it's a  pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much.

  • OREN ETZIONI: The pleasure is mine.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Rememberthere is much more online,  

  • including a look at a new poverty  reduction program that aims to help  

  • all new and expecting mothers in FlintMichigan. That's at PBS.org/NewsHour.

  • And that is the "NewsHour" for  tonight. I'm William Brangham.

  • On behalf of the entire "NewsHourteam, thank you so much for joining us.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Good evening. I'm William  Brangham. Geoff Bennett and Amna Nawaz are away.

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