Subtitles section Play video Print subtitles WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Good evening. I'm William Brangham. Geoff Bennett and Amna Nawaz are away. On the "NewsHour" tonight: The Supreme Court considers the Biden administration's plan to reduce pollution drifting between states. Then: A key informant in the investigation of Hunter Biden is accused of lying and having ties to Russia. And the future of the United Nations' humanitarian aid agency in Palestine hangs in the balance after allegations some employees helped with Hamas October 7 attack. MATTHIAS SCHMALE, Former UNRWA Operations Director, Gaza: Allegations that UNRWA is controlled by Hamas need to be substantiated. Otherwise, they are allegations for which there is no proper proof. (BREAK) WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Welcome to the "NewsHour." A top Israeli official is offering new hope tonight for a deal to free the hostages in Gaza and pause the fighting there. Benny Gantz is a member of the Israeli war cabinet. And he spoke today at a news conference in Tel Aviv. BENNY GANTZ, Israeli War Cabinet Minister (through translator): There are ongoing attempts to promote a new hostage deal, and there are promising early signs of possible progress. We will not stop looking for a way, and we will not miss any opportunity to bring our people home. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Gantz also warns that, if there is no deal, fighting will continue into Ramadan, the Muslim holy month that begins in March. In Gaza, Israeli airstrikes rained down again overnight, and hospital officials reported at least 67 Palestinians were killed. Palestinians said bombs crushed family homes in Rafah, where more than a million Gazans have fled. One man condemned the world's response, including Tuesday's U.S. veto of a U.N. cease-fire resolution. AHMED JUMA, Gaza Strip Resident (through translator): This veto was not a surprise. The whole world has made the decision of committing a genocide against the Palestinian people. If all the images across than 140 days did not push the world to take action, then what are they waiting for? WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The Hamas-run Gazan Health Ministry reported the overall death toll in the territory now exceeds 29,300 people. Israeli lawmakers today rejected international pressure for a unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state. The Knesset sided overwhelmingly with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who said the statehood issue must be part of overall peace negotiations. A related question is now before the world court at The Hague. U.S. State Department lawyers argued today that Israel should not be asked to immediately withdraw from all the all Palestinian lands that were captured in 1967 during the Six-Day War. The U.N. court will eventually issue a nonbinding opinion. In Russia, Alexei Navalny's mother filed suit against prison officials who've refused to release her son's remains. The opposition leader reportedly died last week at a high-security Arctic prison. Russian authorities have said they will hold Navalny's body for two weeks while they investigate his cause of death. Russia's capture of a city in Eastern Ukraine has touched off a new exodus in the region. People are now fleeing areas near Avdiivka in the Donetsk region after it was taken by the Russians over the weekend. Many of the evacuees are elderly and cannot leave without assistance. Some say they worry their towns will be blasted into ruins. VALENTYNA KITUSH, Ukrainian Evacuee (through translator): It's unbearable to endure what is happening. They are bombarding and destroying everything. Shall I wait until they destroy us? I'm leaving everything behind, home, flat, everything. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Meanwhile, there are signs that the fall of Avdiivka was a bigger blow to Ukraine's military than first believed. New reports indicate that up to 1,000 Ukrainian troops are missing, including hundreds who may have been captured by the Russians. A hearing has wrapped up in London, on whether to green-light the extradition of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange to the U.S. Supporters today demanded his release. They and his defense team maintain he shouldn't be punished for leaking troves of documents that exposed U.S. misdeeds in Iraq and Afghanistan. The U.S. argues Assange put the lives of intelligence sources at risk. A ruling isn't expected until March, at the earliest. Farmer protests turn violent in India today. One protester was killed after farmers fought with police, who fired tear gas. The farmers are marching toward New Delhi to demand higher prices for their crops. And in Spain, farmers drove hundreds of tractors into Madrid to denounce European Union policies. It was their largest demonstration yet. Back in this country, the gap in campaign cash between President Biden and former President Trump is getting wider. The Trump campaign reports it ended January with $30 million on hand after spending more than it took in. Biden's reelection campaign jumped to a surplus of $56 million. And on Wall Street, tech stocks drifted lower again, while the rest of the market managed fractional gains. The Dow Jones industrial average added 48 points to close at 38612. The Nasdaq fell 50 points. The S&P 500 was up six points. Still to come on the "NewsHour": Alabama's Supreme Court rules that frozen embryos are children; a new app aims to make traffic stops in Minnesota safer; the potentially scary implications of an A.I. tool that creates extremely realistic video; plus much more. The Supreme Court heard arguments today in a major environmental case over a rule that requires states to stop their air pollution from drifting over to neighboring states. Three states, led by Ohio, are claiming the rule is too costly, and they're asking the court to block the so-called good neighbor plan. Coral Davenport is following all this closely. She covers energy and environmental policy at The New York Times. Coral, great to have you back on the program. So, the good neighbor plan, as I mentioned, says that states have to do everything they can to stop their pollution from sullying their neighbors' air. The states that are protesting this rule, what is it that they don't like about it? CORAL DAVENPORT, The New York Times: So this rule is the Biden administration strengthening a rule that was already on the books from the Obama administration. The Obama rule said that power plants had to control their pollution that goes over state lines and pollutes in other states. The law actually says that governments have to go back and strengthen this rule every number of years. The Trump administration did not do that. The Biden administration went back, they expanded the rule and said, we're also going to apply this to a lot of other industrial pollution, steel mills, factories, cement plants, so a really significant expansion of these controls. And this is what the industrial states say, this is too much. This is going to cost millions, if not billions of dollars. It's a burden. It's a tremendous economic imposition on the engines of our state. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And what is the argument for it? I mean, I guess broadly speaking, we could say air pollution is bad. But the argument for stopping this pollution is what? CORAL DAVENPORT: So, again, the Clean Air Act specifically stipulates that the federal government has to do this. It says that there's -- and this is sort of interesting because it has to do with the way the winds blow. You have heard the phrase the westerly winds that blow across the United States. That's real. So when you have a lot of air pollution, smog in the middle of the country, it is very well-documented that winds actually blow that to the eastern part of the country. So when you have a lot of smog in states like Ohio and Indiana, it ends up in the air of Delaware and Connecticut. The senator from Delaware recently said, we are the tailpipe of the United States. And there's a lot of evidence that that's true. So the law created this specific regulation, essentially saying, you states in the middle of the country where this is coming from, you have to clean up to protect your neighbors. Well, that's part of it. And the other part is that there's a lot of evidence that this smog is really devastating for human health. The EPA finds that this rule would indeed be very costly. It would cost the industry about $900 million a year to comply. That's huge. It also finds that it would save the economy, in terms of work days, sick days, increased asthma, respiratory diseases, it would save the economy about $13 billion a year in costs that are measured in public health impacts. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And that seems like a pretty clear cost-benefit analysis. CORAL DAVENPORT: It is a magnitude of difference. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The court took up this case on what's known as its emergency docket. And several of the justices today, including Ketanji Brown Jackson, seemed to take issue with that, asking why this was so urgent. We talked with our Supreme Court analyst, Marcia Coyle, about this earlier. Here's what she had to say about this. MARCIA COYLE: Justice Jackson said she didn't see the emergency. In fact, she wondered if this was not just a case of the states and industry wanting not to obey the law as the lawsuit proceeded through the D.C. Circuit. So what the court has is very unusual here right now. They always claim that they are court of review, not first view. And they have nothing to review in front of them, because no lower court has yet to look at the merits of the good neighbor plan. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And yet the court seemed very eager to hear this. CORAL DAVENPORT: And it's very surprising. One reason is that the entities that are specifically the plaintiffs in this case are the newly covered entities. So the power plants had already been covered. This regulation expands the rules and the controls to steel, cement, power plants factories. Those rules don't kick in, in until 2026. And yet -- so they're not... WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Directly impacted now. CORAL DAVENPORT: They're not directly impacted. And yet they brought this case to the Supreme Court on this emergency filing, saying that this is going to have an emergency impact right now and that the rule essentially needs to be frozen, not implemented at all, until all the litigation is complete. But it is extremely unusual for the Supreme Court to even hear a case like this. And that is kind of part of a trend that we're starting to see in this Supreme Court. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: But this court has shown a good deal of skepticism towards a lot of environmental regulations. CORAL DAVENPORT: Well, that's always true of a conservative court historically, ideologically. There's more justices appointed by Republican presidents on this court. That's not surprising. Here's what's new. This is the third in cases that they are taking where, again, the regulation is not fully implemented. Last year, the Supreme Court heard a case on a water regulation that was not yet implemented, not yet fully on the books. Very surprising. Again, analysts said they were surprised that they took that case. They ended up choosing to sharply limit the regulation. So even before the government was done writing the regulation, the court had told it, you have to really rein back what you're doing. Same thing happened the year before on a major climate change regulation. Again, very unusual for the court to have even taken up the case before the regulation was even done. The court told the government, you're really restricted in what kind of regulating you do. That regulation still isn't out. But the government has -- is taking its marching orders from the court on how it can write these rules. This is a new trend where it's not just conservative justices expressing skepticism of regulation. It's taking it to a new level of ruling on these policies before they're even on the books and dictating to the federal agencies what they can then do, kind of handcuffing them before they're even done with their work. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And it sounds like, from the arguments today, that the same thing might happen again. Coral Davenport of The New York Times, always great to see you. Thank you. CORAL DAVENPORT: Always great to be here. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: An informant who's been charged with lying to the FBI about President Biden recently told law enforcement he's been in contact with Russian agents. That informant's story is at the center of Republicans' ongoing effort to impeach President Biden. Laura Barron-Lopez has more. LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: In a court filing last night, special counsel David Weiss said ex-FBI informant Alexander Smirnov told them he met with Russian operatives as recently as last December. In the filing, prosecutors wrote: "Smirnov admitted that officials associated with Russian intelligence were involved in passing a story about Businessperson 1," referring to President Biden's son Hunter Biden. Prosecutors say that story of a Ukrainian energy firm bribing President Biden and his son is a complete fabrication being used to interfere in U.S. elections. Joining me to discuss the implications is Ryan Goodman, former special counsel for the Department of Defense. Ryan, thank you so much for joining. What's the big takeaway from this latest revelation? RYAN GOODMAN, Former Department of Defense Special Counsel: So, the big takeaway is that Mr. Smirnov appears to have been acting as an agent of Russian intelligence. And, according to the Department of Justice's filing in court, he was knowingly passing on false derogatory information about President Biden and Hunter Biden to the FBI, and that he's been doing so recently and actively. So that's the kind of bombshell of that court filing by the Justice Department. LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Alexander Smirnov first made this raw, unverified allegation in 2020. It was not corroborated. So why is David Weiss, who is a Trump-appointed U.S. attorney, deciding to bring these charges now? And, also, why do you think Smirnov is just revealing last week that he's been in contact with Russian intel officials. RYAN GOODMAN: So it seems as though Mr. Weiss has been building a case against Mr. Smirnov and that the FBI knew along the way that Mr. Smirnov was telling them lies and fabrications. They were able to corroborate in a certain sense that these were falsehoods because his chronology didn't line up. The times he said that he met with the Burisma company didn't line up. He made an allegation about Hunter Biden's being in a country that Hunter Biden never visited. So, I think it's all about building that case to be able to prosecute him fully for false statements to the FBI. And then now we have this mountain of new evidence and allegations in the court filing because the Justice Department is trying to implore the judges to not release Mr. Smirnov before trial. So that's where all this new information comes in. And Smirnov is revealing it to the government after arrest. So I think that it's important to know that, because, at that point, he should have known the jig is up. So it wasn't as though it was part of the prior practice of him trying to lie to the FBI. It's him kind of coming clean after arrest and then knowingly telling the FBI as best as he could his contacts with Russian officials. LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: The unverified allegation made by Alexander Smirnov was in what's called a 1023 form, where the FBI takes in those raw allegations. And it was the foundation, that form, for the House Republican impeachment probe. Just last month, House Judiciary Chairman Jim Jordan said that that form, that raw allegation, was the heart of their probe. REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): But the most corroborating evidence we have is that 1023 form from this highly credible confidential human source, according to U.S. attorney Scott Brady. LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Politics and impeachment aside, Ryan, from a national security perspective, what are the implications of apparent Russian disinformation being filtered through top Republican elected officials and media outlets like FOX News? RYAN GOODMAN: So, in a certain sense, that is the goal of the Russian Kremlin disinformation campaigns inside the United States. They want to divide us. They want to upset and overturn in a certain sense our institution. So if they can do something as much as fuel an impeachment process against a sitting president, that's already a success. And I think that's -- to me, when I read this court filing, was one of the most alarming parts of it, just how much the Russian intelligence operation had in some sense succeeded in jump-starting this process. And even when Speaker McCarthy, speaker at the time, announced the impeachment process, he referred specifically to Mr. Smirnov's what are now understood to be lies to the FBI, because that was also the heart of the allegations. So it's deeply concerning as a national security matter. LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: What do you think the implications are for the House Republican impeachment inquiry? RYAN GOODMAN: I have to think that the Republicans themselves would have to go back to the drawing board. This really does undermine a fundamental building block of the impeachment. So many of the allegations about President Biden having been bribed are coming from Mr. Smirnov. So many of the statements made by House Republicans for -- in favor of impeachment are traceable to him. LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: In this filing, special counsel David Weiss said -- quote -- "The misinformation he is spreading is not confined to 2020. He," being Smirnov, "is actively peddling new lies that could impact U.S. elections after meeting with Russian intelligence officials in November." Do you think that the damage is done and that this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to potential Russian interference ahead of 2024? RYAN GOODMAN: So I think a lot of damage has already been done. He really has in a certain sense, this particular individual, had an enormous effect on our political psyche and what's happened on the Hill and the corridors of power. So I think that's already happened. And I also think it is a tip of the iceberg, but what's so astonishing about the court filing is, unlike the prior instances in which this goes according to the Russian playbook, we have direct information about Russian intelligence officials being right there in this operation. Before, it was about cutouts, like Mr. Smirnov himself. But here it is Russian officials. In fact, Russian Official No. 1 is identified as somebody who has a direct line to the highest levels of the Russian government. And we can all understand what that means. That's what the DOJ says in the filing. So I think this is in a certain sense a tip of the iceberg. This is -- there's no way in which this is the only aspect of this Russian disinformation campaign. It's just giving us an indication of what they're trying to do to the country during especially a presidential election cycle. LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Ryan, as we talk about this, Congress is in the middle of a heated debate about aiding Ukraine against Russian invasion. And just last week, the leading GOP presidential candidate, former President Donald Trump, said that he would encourage Russia to invade NATO allies if they don't spend enough on defense. So how does this latest revelation of the ex-FBI informant having connections to Russian intelligence officials fit into the bigger picture? RYAN GOODMAN: So I think it's part of Vladimir Putin's overall strategic plan. His main goal is to do something like divide the West, certainly to divide NATO or have NATO break up at a certain point. So, at some level, I think it is to do what he's done in the past, which is to support a candidate who has that as part of their agenda. It is to undermine the competing candidate, which is part of his agenda. And even if he doesn't succeed at, in fact, having one of them win and the other one lose, the idea that he can inject so much distrust into the body politic in the United States around these issues of U.S. relationships with Ukraine, former vice president, current president's relationship with Ukraine, that's what he wants. LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: That's Ryan Goodman, a professor of law at New York University and a former special counsel to the Defense Department. Thank you so much for your time. RYAN GOODMAN: Thank you. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The U.N. acknowledged today that aid deliveries into Gaza have dropped dramatically, threatening a population where hunger is spreading. That aid is delivered by a U.N. agency that Israel recently accused of acting -- quote -- "under the authorization of Hamas." Some Israelis have called for its abolition, and the U.S. has frozen its funding. Nick Schifrin examines the question and fate of UNRWA. NICK SCHIFRIN: When Israel was born, so was UNRWA. The U.N. created the U.N. Relief and Works Agency to serve three-quarters-of-a-million Palestinians who fled or were forced out of what is now Israel; 75 years later, UNRWA serves their descendants, nearly six million Palestinians in Gaza and across the region, with schools, health clinics, and, especially today, humanitarian assistance. But during Hamas' October 7 terrorist attack, an Israeli dossier says four UNRWA staffers were involved in kidnapping Israelis, six UNRWA staffers in total infiltrated into Israel, and it said UNRWA acts under the authorization and supervision of Hamas. And underneath UNRWA headquarters in Gaza, Israel said it found a Hamas tunnel. In response, the U.S. and Germany, UNRWA's largest donors and a dozen more countries, have frozen funding. UNRWA says, if the funding doesn't resume, it will have to stop delivering aid in Gaza by the end of the month. For two perspectives on the allegations against and the future of UNRWA, we turn to reserve Israeli Colonel Grisha Yakubovich, who was the former head of the Civil Department of Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories, known as COGAT, from 2012 to 2016. He is a current expert with the Israeli think tank The MirYam Institute. And Matthias Schmale was the UNRWA director of operations in Gaza from 2017 to 2021. He now advises the U.N. Development Regional Office in Ethiopia. Thank you very much. Welcome both of you to the "NewsHour." Matthias Schmale, let me start with you. The dossier that Israel has released on Hamas on October the 7th that I just referred to not only refers to UNRWA staffers' activity on October 7, but it says that 10 percent of UNRWA's 12,000 employees in Gaza are either members of Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad. When you ran UNRWA in Gaza, you actually had to fire some half-a-dozen members for their links to Hamas. Do you find the Israeli dossier credible? And what's your response to it? MATTHIAS SCHMALE, Former UNRWA Operations Director, Gaza: To the best of my knowledge -- I have not seen the dossier itself. And to the best of my knowledge, UNRWA itself has not been given the dossier and/or substantial evidence to back up the claims that up to 13 UNRWA staff were involved in the horror that was inflicted in Israel on October 7. Secondly, based on my own experience of almost four years in Gaza, I find the claim that 10 percent of UNRWA staff are active members of Hamas grossly exaggerated. My senior management team consisted of about 12 to 15 people, most of them Palestinian. And in my experience, again, over four years, none of them were closely linked or had sympathies for Hamas. NICK SCHIFRIN: Grisha Yakubovich, is it grossly exaggerated to suggest 10 percent of UNRWA's Hamas? COL. GRISHA YAKUBOVICH, IDF Reserves: When the IDF says that 13 UNRWA employees were involved in the horror on October 7, so the IDF has the evidence. And it will not -- nobody will declare something like that because now we have this desire to say it. Now, if you remember the tunnel that was found under the U.N. -- the UNRWA headquarters, all the technology underneath the headquarters is something that will not be built in a year or two years. It's something that should take at least five years, six years minimum. This is a huge tunnel with a ton of technology, that it's all from Iran. And it's not even logic that nobody would see that or know that. One of the problems UNRWA in Gaza that, during the last years, the international staff actually reached to minimal, minimal, minimal people. And all the 12,000 officials, I think, almost 99 percent of them were locals. So nobody would actually check if you are in Hamas (INAUDIBLE) Fatah or whatever. NICK SCHIFRIN: Matthias Schmale, so respond to that, the idea that the infiltration, so to speak, of UNRWA literally underneath headquarters by Hamas is not something that happened recently. It would take years, and, therefore, UNRWA would know about it. MATTHIAS SCHMALE: Look, during my time, it was evident that there are tunnels all over Gaza. You might also know that a former Prime Minister of Israel Ehud Barak actually acknowledged that part of the tunnels under Shifa Hospital were actually built by Israel during their time of direct occupation of Gaza. So, no surprises that there are tunnels underneath many installations in Gaza. What puzzles me is that, in my almost four years of relatively regular contact with COGAT, the Israeli administration for the Gaza Strip, the occupied territories, this was never brought up as an issue, nor was it brought up as an issue that Israel had evidence of 10 percent of UNRWA staff being proactive members of Hamas. What I was told is, we need UNRWA. You are doing good work. We don't like what you say at times publicly, but the services you provide are essential. NICK SCHIFRIN: Grisha Yakubovich, there is a debate in Israel, of course, whether UNRWA should be replaced. Do Israeli officials privately tell UNRWA and other people that, yes, they do need UNRWA? COL. GRISHA YAKUBOVICH: Well, I want to be very, very honest here. Yes, UNRWA is an important player when it comes to provide aid to the people in Gaza. We are not saying that the people in Gaza should not -- that they don't deserve this aid. The thing here is that it's about time that it will be done through a Palestinian sovereignty in Gaza and not UNRWA. Nobody actually really needs UNRWA. You can actually do the same thing by giving the money, giving the aid to an entity that will rule there, control there, and be responsible. The moment you have UNRWA there, by the way, doing a great job during the whole -- those whole years. I'm not saying that UNRWA is not an important player that provides food, aid, medical care and treatment and treating the refugee camps. This is not something that I can take away from UNRWA. I have been working with them. And we even encouraged them in the past to do it. The problem is when that organization is used, the U.N. flags are used by a terror organization as a cover for terror activity. That's the problem. NICK SCHIFRIN: Matthias Schmale, is UNRWA used as cover for terror, and is there a possible replacement? MATTHIAS SCHMALE: I have seen no evidence, either in my time on the ground in Gaza of almost four years or since, that suggests UNRWA is used or controlled by Hamas. In fact, in 2014, so before my time, we ourselves at one point discovered weapons in a school that was abandoned because of military activities. We ourselves alerted Israel and then clarified with Hamas that those weapons had to be removed. So we have over the years done everything to protect the integrity of the organization. I said during my time in Gaza that no one, including myself, wants UNRWA to continue another decade, another 70 years. UNRWA is not there out of self-interest. The only reason UNRWA exists is because there is, as yet, no just solution accepted by both sides. The minute there is a just solution, Palestinians have a state they can call their own, UNRWA will cease to exist. NICK SCHIFRIN: Grisha Yakubovich, take on that point that Matthias Schmale just made. That is that he and other people in charge of UNRWA have done enough, have done as much as they can to try and keep Hamas outside of UNRWA. Has UNRWA, has the U.N. done enough? COL. GRISHA YAKUBOVICH: There should be an end to UNRWA's work in Gaza. And it has nothing to do with the Palestinian state. It can be with a Palestinian entity that will take responsibility and they should mature. They can get the money, no problem with that. They can get the aid, but they should take responsibility on themselves, so they will not use the cover of a U.N.-imported organization to use it and eventually to use it for terror, because this is actually what happened during this horror that happened on October 7. NICK SCHIFRIN: Grisha Yakubovich, Matthias Schmale, thank you very much to you both. COL. GRISHA YAKUBOVICH: Thank you, guys. MATTHIAS SCHMALE: Thank you. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: A decision from the Alabama Supreme Court has alarmed doctors, patients and reproductive rights advocates. On Friday, the court ruled that frozen embryos created through in vitro fertilization, or IVF, are legally children and thus protected. The designation of personhood could have significant repercussions for reproductive rights. Stephanie Sy looks at the questions raised by this ruling. STEPHANIE SY: William, this issue made its way to Alabama's Supreme Court after three families sued when their frozen embryos were taken from a clinic and then accidentally destroyed. They sued under the state's Wrongful Death of a Minor Act. Alabama's High Court asserted the law applies to all children, born and unborn, including, to the shock of many, frozen embryos. Today, the University of Alabama Birmingham Health System said it is pausing IVF procedures because of a fear of prosecution. For more, I'm joined by Mary Ziegler, a legal historian and expert on reproduction and health care. Mary, thank you, as always, for being with the "NewsHour." About 2 percent of all babies born in this country are conceived through assisted reproductive technology. What are the concerns about how this decision will affect reproductive rights and options? MARY ZIEGLER, University of California, Davis: Well, I think the decision casts a shadow on a lot of options that usually are available through IVF. So, for example, if people have extra embryos, they can no longer be destroyed. They can no longer be donated for research in Alabama. It's not even clear what the legality of storing them would be or if potentially they will need to be implanted. And then there's just the simple fact, as we have seen with the University of Alabama in Birmingham, the threat that, if embryos are inadvertently damaged or destroyed, that could lead to lawsuits or even to criminal prosecutions, which I think is going to have a tremendous chilling effect on fertility care in the state. STEPHANIE SY: Mary, I want to read an excerpt from the chief justice's concurring opinion. "The people of Alabama," he says, "have declared the public policy of this state to be that unborn human life is sacred. We believe that each human being from moment of conception is made in the image of God created by him to reflect his likeness." So the chief justice there invoking Scripture from the Bible in a legal ruling. What is your take on that? MARY ZIEGLER: Well, I think this is a sign of the ascendance of the Christian legal movement, which I think is distinct from what we're used to thinking of, right? It's not the Federalist Society. It's part of a conservative legal movement that asserts that the Constitution is a Christian document, that the nation is a Christian nation and that there should be no daylight really between church and state when it comes to interpretation of the law. And the chief justice was making the point that, in his view, the people of Alabama have already embraced that position. It's striking to see this in a court ruling, right? This is not coming from a social movement. And I think it'll shift the Overton window and make it more likely that we will see more language of this kind from other courts. STEPHANIE SY: The overturn -- Overton, of course, being what overturned Roe v. Wade. We spoke to an OB-GYN and fertility specialist, Dr. Aimee Eyvazzadeh, about this. And she said she is horrified by this decision and what it will mean. DR. AIMEE EYVAZZADEH, Fertility Specialist: Embryos are precious cells. They're very precious. They have the potential to turn into a baby, the potential. But an embryo is not a child, is not a baby. They have a chance to become one. But anyone who knows even the smallest bit about IVF knows that an embryo is a chance for a baby. The concern here is that patients who are doing testing in Alabama, they might be forced to use embryos that they didn't want to use. They might not be allowed to freeze embryos and they might have to transfer everything they have. It might change how you do IVF, where people will be freezing eggs and only creating embryos enough to transverse, they have none left over, or what we're seeing now, IVF is going to halt completely. STEPHANIE SY: Those are some of the concerns that you also brought up. But 11 states have passed laws defining personhood as beginning at fertilization. So should women who are doing IVF or seeking IVF treatment be worried that this Alabama decision may affect them? MARY ZIEGLER: I think it's hard to say, right? I mean, so there are some states where personhood is just -- it's not clear if it's legally operative. It's sort of a policy that's been declared by the state, but it's unclear how much how teeth -- how -- if it has teeth in terms of actually affecting people concretely. But I think, again, because some court had to be first, someone had to be the first to say we think that a fetus or an embryo is a person, and now that the Alabama Supreme Court has done this, I think we would expect to see either legislators or state courts in equally conservative states with similar personhood policies being more willing to make the same kind of move. So I think this is something that should concern people who are pursuing infertility treatment in all of those states and indeed elsewhere in the country too. STEPHANIE SY: Does it end with this decision, or is there any legal pathway forward, especially given that Roe v. Wade has been overturned? Does this run afoul at all of any federal rights or other constitutional rights? MARY ZIEGLER: It's hard to say, right? I mean, the Alabama Supreme Court was trying pretty hard to make this a state court ruling and to say this was about the interpretation of the state wrongful death of a minor law, which is not something ordinarily that the U.S. Supreme Court would become involved in. You could imagine federal constitutional claims raised by people who want to pursue IVF. But this is a very conservative U.S. Supreme Court that's going to be unlikely to recognize new reproductive rights under federal law, like a right to procreate. So I think, while that's theoretically possible, the Alabama Supreme Court is likely to be the last stop in this case. STEPHANIE SY: Mary, you are really an expert on what has happened since the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Where would you put this decision in the spectrum of reactions we have seen since the Overton decision? MARY ZIEGLER: Well, I think it's a big indicator of what's coming next, right? So I think a lot of Americans believe that when the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade in the Dobbs decision, that that was the end, right, that the people who believed that a fetus or an embryo was a person had won and they would move on to other issues. In fact, I think this decision is a reminder that personhood, right, this idea that a fetus or embryo is a rights-holding person, has been a motivating reason for many people to join the anti-abortion movement really since its inception in the 1960s. And I think we're going to see much more of this. So this is sort of a sign of what's to come, in addition to something I think that will have a tremendous effect on people who are seeking to become parents in the state of Alabama. STEPHANIE SY: Mary Ziegler, thank you. MARY ZIEGLER: Thanks for having me. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The murder of George Floyd thrust Minnesota into the center of the debate over police misconduct. As Fred de Sam Lazaro reports, one effort coming out of that painful period hopes to make traffic stops safer. It's part of our coverage of Race Matters issues and Fred's series Agents for Change. FRED DE SAM LAZARO: For decades, there have been tense relations between law enforcement authorities and Minnesota's communities of color, punctuated by high profile police-involved shootings. MAN: Sir, I have to tell you, I do have a firearm on me. MAN: OK. OK. FRED DE SAM LAZARO: It was the 2016 death of Philando Castile during a traffic stop near St. Paul and the protests that followed that brought three 20-something Black men together. MYCHAL FRELIX, Chief Operating officer, TurnSignl: I grew up playing with the Castiles, as did Andre. And I remember even a conversation that Andre and I had where we said, how can we do something to be a part of the solution? ANDRE CREIGHTON, Chief Financial Officer, TurnSignl: And I think, when George Floyd occurred, the realization of what we needed to do really came to fruition. FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Floyd's murder set off a light bulb for Andre Creighton and Mychal Frelix, each with MBAs, and Jazz Hampton, a lawyer. It also cracked open the door to start up funding for their idea, as venture capitalists, philanthropists and many corporations pledged their support to addressing issues of race and equity. The three left corporate careers to launch an app they called TurnSignl. WOMAN: If you're pulled over, simply launch the TurnSignl app. FRED DE SAM LAZARO: It's marketing slogan is: "We Put an Attorney in the Passenger Seat." WOMAN: Hi, Thomas. I'm an attorney with TurnSignl. FRED DE SAM LAZARO: The company now has some 50,000 scribes at $60 a year, and 400 lawyers in 50 states have signed on. They do not act as attorneys, at least not yet. Instead, they are given specific instructions by TurnSignl on how to guide the driver to de-escalate. MYCHAL FRELIX: We built this training to not only have attorneys look for those verbal and nonverbal cues, but really just be there for our clients to help calm them down in that interaction. JAZZ HAMPTON, Chief Executive Officer, TurnSignl: But the number of times, for example, Philando Castile was pulled over, it was in the 40s, right? That's a lot of times to be pulled over, so people can be frustrated. And it's all about how we can tell them that we're here to give them peace of mind in the moment, because, if they escalate, then the officer will escalate. This isn't a court of law. It's the side of the road. NYASHA OPERANA, Attorney: My goal is to make sure that both parties return home safe. FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Minneapolis attorney Nyasha Operana says her legal credentials bring extra credibility to her value as an observer. She says her virtual presence has helped lower the temperature. NYASHA OPERANA: I have had several interactions on both ends, where, one, either the driver was emotional, upset, trying to prove a point, upset at the officer for pulling them over. And we have been able to even tell officers, can you please give me 30 seconds with this driver, calm that driver down, and it's worked. FRED DE SAM LAZARO: If the driver decides later to take the incident to court, they have the option to contact the attorney. That potential business is one incentive for TurnSignl's lawyers, who pay an annual fee of $1,000 to be listed on the app. But Operana says there's more. NYASHA OPERANA: I do this because I think its important for the community, especially as a group that might not always have access to justice in the same manner that other people would. We want people to be able to trust the police. We want police to feel safe as well. FRED DE SAM LAZARO: TurnSignl's founders say they regularly seek meetings with law enforcement agencies to explain the app and raise its visibility, so it's not perceived as a threat or antagonistic. MAN: What's going on? ANDRE CREIGHTON: Pulled over for speeding. FRED DE SAM LAZARO: And co-founder Andre Creighton just happens to have a recent personal experience to demonstrate, when he was pulled over in suburban Minneapolis and got a lawyer on the app. ANDRE CREIGHTON: Yes. Yes, sir. MAN: OK. Ask him -- ask him -- if he's going to give you a ticket, ask him to please make it out for 64, anything under 65. ANDRE CREIGHTON: He's not walking back with papers, so -- well, actually, we will see. MAN: Who is that, your attorney? ANDRE CREIGHTON: Yes, my attorney with TurnSignl. MAN: You called your attorney over a speeding ticket? FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Did you get a ticket? Did you deserve it? ANDRE CREIGHTON: I did not get a ticket. I probably did deserve a ticket. (LAUGHTER) FRED DE SAM LAZARO: However, studies show people of color are more likely than white drivers to receive a ticket or be searched or arrested. About 30 percent of drivers killed in traffic stops in America are Black, more than twice their proportion in the general population. We have had some real difficulty finding TurnSignl app users who are willing to share their stories publicly. Most were afraid that they would be targets of future harassment. We did find one individual who lives on the East Coast who was willing to share, so long as we use only the audio portion of our Zoom interview. MAN: He was very, very, very aggressive. But when he noticed that I turn my TurnSignl, he calms his voice. FRED DE SAM LAZARO: A West African immigrant, he denies any wrongdoing, but he did get a ticket and paid the fine. But between the initial stop and writing the citation, he says, it was the officer who de-escalated. MAN: A white guy who is talking to a Black male. FRED DE SAM LAZARO: So, the police officer observed a white face on the app, the lawyer? MAN: Yes. Yes. FRED DE SAM LAZARO: You fear that, if you talk to us, if you go public, you might be targeted. MAN: Yes, I would be a target, because those who are powerless remain powerless. SETH STOUGHTON, University of South Carolina: We continue to layer technology on top of what is ultimately not a technological problem. FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Criminology and criminal justice professor Seth Stoughton is skeptical of how much impact the app will have on entrenched social issues. SETH STOUGHTON: We did the same thing with body cameras. We did the same thing with dash cameras. Dash cameras, if we go back into the late '90s, early 2000s, here we are 24 years later still struggling with the issue of racial profiling and traffic stops. I think the app is probably most promising when it comes to making people feel better. ROSELINE FRIEDRICH, Business Owner: And this is all handmade stuff. FRED DE SAM LAZARO: For some users, feeling better makes all the difference. Roseline Friedrich, who owns a boutique store in St. Paul, hasn't used the app during a traffic stop, but says she feels safer knowing it's available. ROSELINE FRIEDRICH: Every time I have like a weird interaction with the police, or like during traffic stop stuff, I'm a brown person. I immediately go into -- having it on my phone at all times makes me feel like I don't ever have to worry about an officer pulling me over. FRED DE SAM LAZARO: That peace of mind also pays a public health dividend, says TurnSignl's Mychal Frelix. MYCHAL FRELIX: Racism is a public health crisis. And where you live, and where you work and where you play factor into your overall health as a human being. And so there's a lot of organizations that still truly do believe in that. FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Blue Cross Blue Shield of Minnesota is among several companies and philanthropies that cover the app's subscription cost for anyone earning less than $40,000 a year, some 40 percent of all subscribers. The start-up has met its goal so far, and hope is, as it gets into more and more cars, begins to turn a profit in two years. For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Fred de Sam Lazaro in Minneapolis. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Fred's reporting is a partnership with the Under-Told Stories Project at the University of St. Thomas in Minnesota. I want to show you some video. Look at that adorable puppy trying to navigate those window sills in Italy, or this woman strolling at night through downtown Tokyo, or this, a street parade celebrating the Chinese lunar new year. None of these is real. They're 100 percent generated by an artificial intelligence program created by OpenAI called Sora. And they were created with a very simple text prompt, just a sentence or two saying, make a video of a stylish woman dressed in black walking down a street in Tokyo. And these are the results. The implications of this technology, of being able to create extremely realistic-looking video with nothing more than a few words of suggestion, is one of the more remarkable and potentially scary developments we have seen so far in artificial intelligence. Oren Etzioni studies A.I. and its implications. He's the founder of TrueMedia.Org, an organization that fights against A.I.-based disinformation. Oren Etzioni, thank you so much for being here. Before we get to the implications of this, I wonder, when you first saw those videos and knew how they were created, what was your reaction? OREN ETZIONI, Founder, TrueMedia.Org: I was absolutely terrified. It's the future and it's come very fast and a lot sooner than any of us expected. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So, terrified. I have to say, I was at first struck by just -- I couldn't believe that they were able to make such extraordinarily realistic videos with such simple prompts like that. Why does it terrify you? OREN ETZIONI: What terrifies me is deepfakes, is the use of this technology, which, of course, has many positive uses, but the use of it to create forgeries, and particularly coming up on one of the most consequential elections in history. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So walk me through some of those. Like, sketch out some of the kinds of things that you worry this technology could be used for. OREN ETZIONI: We have already had robocalls in New Hampshire that were supposed to be by President Biden, but they weren't. That's nothing compared to seeing videos on social media of different candidates doing things that didn't happen. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, yes, you could certainly see a late-breaking circumstance right before an election, as you're saying, where some nefarious actor posts a video. I mean, there is just something that is so convincing about this kind of video. OREN ETZIONI: We're visual animals. You see a political candidate being rushed to the hospital. You see talking heads getting on television, his doctor saying, it doesn't look good. But it's all fake. And you can see a lot of it coming at once. We used to have state actors doing this, but now practically anybody can do it. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, the -- what is the solution for this? I mean, some of the bigger companies say that they will put these so-called watermarks, sort of transparent image that will be imprinted on the video to signal that it is generated by A.I. But not everyone's going to do that, certainly not the bad actors. What is the -- what do -- how do we get around this? OREN ETZIONI: There's no silver bullet. The problem with watermarks is, what if they're using a model that doesn't have watermarks, doesn't have these identifying characteristics? We are trying to build detection technology at TrueMedia.Org, so if you upload a video or social media post, we can assess whether it's true or fake. But that can be circumvented as well. We need better regulations. We need better education. And we need everybody to chip in. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, there are times where you can see the fakery. I mean, A.I. seems to have a hard time depicting human hands for some reason. And even OpenAI on Sora posted some examples that are clearly where the software is off. But isn't it just going to be this constant escalating arms race of new creations and then the trying to play catchup with detecting that fakery? OREN ETZIONI: This is moving so fast, it's going to get worse before it gets better. And with low-resolution video that looks like it's shot by a phone, you often will not be able to tell whether this is fake or real. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, right now, right, I'm talking to you via Skype, but you're sitting in Mexico. It's hard to know that that's really you sitting there. OREN ETZIONI: Well, we had an instance of a scam where somebody gave away $25 million because he thought he was talking to his colleagues on a video call. It's absolutely a case of be careful what your eyes are telling you. (LAUGHTER) WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Congress and the White House have been debating what rules or regulations that they could do to try to help solve this issue. Do you think that there is a tool or law that could come out of Washington that might address this? OREN ETZIONI: We are seeing laws and regulations coming out of the states already passed in several states, including California, Washington, Minnesota, et cetera, prohibiting deepfakes 30 days, 90 days before the election. So I do think that there are things we can put in place. I don't know if they will come out of Washington, but they will be in place. It won't solve the problem because foreign adversaries can do this sort of thing as well. We need to step up and do whatever we can. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So you think the genie is sort of out of the bottle here? OREN ETZIONI: Genie is out of the bottle. It's just a question of how much damage it'll do in what's a very close election. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All right, Oren Etzioni of TrueMedia.org, if that really is you sitting there, it's a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much. OREN ETZIONI: The pleasure is mine. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Remember, there is much more online, including a look at a new poverty reduction program that aims to help all new and expecting mothers in Flint, Michigan. That's at PBS.org/NewsHour. And that is the "NewsHour" for tonight. I'm William Brangham. On behalf of the entire "NewsHour" team, thank you so much for joining us.
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