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AMNA NAWAZ: Good evening. I'm Amna Nawaz. Geoff Bennett is away.
On the "NewsHour" tonight: Israelis celebrate Passover,
as tens of thousands remain displaced and the war with Hamas rages on.
As college protests against Israel's war in Gaza spread,
a look at they compare to demonstrations of the past.
And a new investigation reveals how some of the seafood that ends up on
our plates is produced by the forced labor of North Koreans.
IAN URBINA, Executive Editor, The Outlaw Ocean Project: The
globalized world we live in and the way that seafood, in particular,
largely routes through China means that many, if not most brands in the U.S. are tainted by this.
(BREAK)
AMNA NAWAZ: Welcome to the "NewsHour."
Egypt has sent a high-level delegation to Israel tonight,
hoping to revive talks for a hostage deal and cease-fire with Hamas. But Cairo also
warned against an Israeli assault on the Southern Gaza City of Rafah along the border with Egypt.
Much of Gaza has already been reduced to a wasteland,
with U.N. officials estimating 37 million tons of debris to be removed.
They said today that the cleanup operation will be a mammoth job.
PEHR LODHAMMAR, United Nations Mine Action Service: With 100 trucks,
we're talking about 14 years of work, with 100 trucks. So, that's based on that figure,
14 years to remove, with approximately 750,000 work days, person work days,
to remove the debris, so significant numbers when it comes to debris.
AMNA NAWAZ: The U.N. said roughly 65 percent of the
buildings destroyed in Gaza have been residential ones.
The U.S. military today announced a new weapons package to rearm Ukraine's
air defenses. It includes more Patriot missiles,
but not the additional patriot batteries that Ukraine had wanted.
Still, in Washington, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said he believes this package,
along with other weapons, will meet Ukraine's needs.
LLOYD AUSTIN, U.S. Secretary of Defense: They need other types of systems and interceptors
as well. And so, I would caution us all in terms of making the Patriot the silver
bullet. I would say that it's going to be the integrated air and missile defenses,
as we have said so many times before, that really turns the tide.
AMNA NAWAZ: The new weapons package will cost some $6 billion. It's part of $61
billion in military aid that Congress approved after months of deadlock.
Meanwhile, another member of the Biden Cabinet, Secretary of State Antony Blinken,
warned Chinese President Xi Jinping today against supporting Russia's war
in Ukraine. The two men met in Beijing. Blinken said he told Xi that China must
stop supplying Russia with critical war materiel, or the U.S. will act.
He did not elaborate, but he did acknowledge progress in other areas.
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. Secretary of State: We are committed to maintaining and strengthening the
lines of communication between us, so that we can avoid any miscommunications, any misconceptions,
any miscalculations, and we are committed to responsibly managing the relationship.
AMNA NAWAZ: For his part, Xi said China and the U.S. must seek common ground,
rather than engage in what he called -- quote -- "vicious competition."
Britain's King Charles will return to public duties next week after a three-month break for
cancer treatment. Buckingham Palace said today that doctors are very encouraged
by his progress so far. The palace has not yet said what kind of cancer the king has.
Here at home, the Biden administration has again delayed a ban on menthol cigarettes.
Xavier Becerra, the secretary of Health and Human Services, announced it today,
saying -- quote -- "It's clear that there are still more conversations to have,
and that will take significantly more time."
The ban could have angered Black voters, since 80 percent of Black smokers use menthol cigarettes.
U.S. poultry producers will have to cut salmonella bacteria in some chicken products
to very low levels to prevent food poisoning. A final Agriculture Department regulation issued
today applies to frozen, breaded and stuffed raw chicken. It takes effect next year. Salmonella
poisoning causes roughly 420 deaths and 1.3 million infections annually in the U.S.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is investigating whether last year's Tesla recall
went far enough. The software update aimed to keep drivers alert while using the autopilot feature,
but there have been more crashes since then. Today, the agency said the autopilot feature
-- quote -- "may lead drivers to believe that the automation has greater capabilities than it does."
And on Wall Street, strong earnings at Microsoft and Alphabet pushed the stock
market higher. The Dow Jones industrial average gained 153 points to close at
38239. The Nasdaq rose 316 points. The S&P 500 added 51.
Still to come on the "NewsHour": the connection between forced North Korean
labor and the seafood that ends up on American plates; David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart
weigh in on the week's political headlines; musician Jon Bon Jovi on the new docuseries
capturing the highs and lows of his Grammy Award-winning band's four decades together.
This week, Jews around the world are observing Passover,
the Festival of Liberation that marks the historic exodus from ancient Egypt.
But, this year, joy is tempered with loss and trauma. More than 160,000 Israelis will
mark the holiday while displaced from their homes, as the war with Hamas continues. Still
others have empty chairs at the dinner table, their loved ones still held captive by Hamas.
Ali Rogin has more.
ALI ROGIN: In the rugged hills of Northern Israel,
Metula's mayor patrols his town where now no one lives.
DAVID AZULAI, Mayor of Metula, Israel (through translator): This is Lebanon.
ALI ROGIN: Lebanon is so close, that this border town of 2,000
had to be evacuated under government orders. David Azulai moves around in
a golf cart. He says it's faster to escape when the rockets crash.
DAVID AZULAI: This is a synagogue.
ALI ROGIN: For Azulai, his town is nothing of what it once was, especially now, at Passover.
DAVID AZULAI (through translator): It's very sad. It shouldn't be this way. It's very apocalyptic.
ALI ROGIN: Since October 7, Israel's northern border with Lebanon is
now an undeclared second front line. Hezbollah fires rockets and missiles
weekly into Metula. Nearly a quarter of Metula's 640 homes have been damaged.
And only a handful of civilians like David chose to stay behind,
carrying an automatic rifle always.
DAVID AZULAI (through translator): This year, we are not going to celebrate
Passover. It's very hard to celebrate when your family and your town is not with you.
ALI ROGIN: His office is now in a bomb shelter. He says none of this is normal.
DAVID AZULAI (through translator): Every mayor needs to represent and
take care of his citizens, a place that's alive,
that has places to work, children in school and day care. And, here, there is nothing.
DAVID, Resident of Metula, Israel: No family, no work, no nothing, no personal life. We came back
to the times that we've been in the military. That's what are doing, defending our home.
ALI ROGIN: Another resident, David, in combat gear, helps guard the entrance to Metula.
DAVID: I'm not going to be with my family. My family is doing Passover
far away from here. I am now going to do Passover with our new family,
all of the guys that lives in Metula and decided to stay here and defend our homes and our village.
ALI ROGIN: Many families from Metula have fled just 40 miles to the south to Tiberias,
an ancient city from biblical times on the edge of the Sea of Galilee,
where Scripture says Jesus walked on water. Today, it's a haven for those displaced by war.
The Sofia Hotel is a home away from home for such families,
like Rabbi Israel Pachter and wife, Sara. They left Metula with their 11
children. They struggle away from home. They say they will overcome.
RABBI ISRAEL PACHTER, Metula, Israel: Part of the winning
is to keep our morality up. And this is what we are trying to do.
ALI ROGIN: At the seder dinner, Rabbi Pachter tries to keep the
Passover spirit high with traditional songs. The table is set with special
delicacies. And the room is peopled with a community that's shaken, but resilient.
RABBI ISRAEL PACHTER: You see the people trying to be happy, to do our best to sit together, to talk,
to sing, not to be all the time sad, because, if we will be sad, it's the winning of our enemy.
ALI ROGIN: That's Sara's granddaughter. And it is that childhood joy she wants to protect.
SARA PACHTER, Displaced Israeli: I don't want my kids to be depressed.
I don't want them to feel that this is the end of the world. No, we're strong.
ALI ROGIN: But even this festive dinner is not without despair. There were sunglasses
at each table to remind them of how so many of their country men,
women, and children are kept in darkness now for more than 200
days. Dozens of Israeli families still wait for their loved ones held captive by Hamas.
SARA PACHTER: Every Passover, I buy myself a new dress and new shoes. And, this year,
I couldn't buy. I just -- I felt, how can I buy a dress and new shoes when there's hostages? For me,
it's very hard because I think about the mothers of the hostages, what hell they go through.
I feel like all the world should get up and scream and get those hostages out. It breaks my heart.
ALI ROGIN: That pain during Passover has for 22 years been the air breathed in Netanya,
here 20 miles north of Tel Aviv. In 2002, this hotel was the target of
the deadliest attack on Israel by Hamas during the Second Intifada.
A suicide bomber disguised as a woman stormed into a seder dinner, killing 30 and injuring 140.
RINA HAMANI, Netanya, Israel, Resident: What we get at the Park Hotel before 22 years,
it's like the 9/11 in America. And what we get now in October 7,
in 7 October, it is much more, much more.
ALI ROGIN: Rina Hamani's husband, Ami (ph), was
the hotel's duty manager and among those killed while trying to stop the bomber.
RINA HAMANI: It was Ami, my husband, and me and all the children.
ALI ROGIN: Hamani had to raise their six children, all boys, by herself. She was also the manager of
the hotel and had to keep it running. Every Passover is a grim reminder of her loss.
Given what she suffered at the hands of Hamas, October 7 did not surprise her.
RINA HAMANI: We know exactly that Hamas wants to kill us. They don't want us to
be in Israel. I have no illusions that they will want -- will say we want peace every day,
some days, because, 22 years before, my husband has been killed. I think
the time before and I think that now the same. They want to kill us.
This is Yaeb (ph) and his wife and his girls.
ALI ROGIN: This Passover, as she has for the past two decades,
Rina relies on her family to manage her grief.
RINA HAMANI: Americans have to understand that
we have to finish with Hamas. We can't live with them. They have to -- Hamas,
the Palestinians have -- the Palestinian population has to change the Hamas.
ALI ROGIN: The rituals of Passover this year in Israel are in many ways the same,
steeped in tradition as always, from the lighting
of candles to reading the story of the exodus from ancient Egypt.
But those rituals are also forever changed. Now there is also a prayer
for the hostages in Gaza and a resolve that a Passover like this will not come again.
For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Ali Rogin.
AMNA NAWAZ: One of the biggest developments of this week has
been the expansion of college protests and encampments. Encampments continue to pop
up, including today at the University of North Carolina.
Meanwhile, protesters at Columbia say they can't reach an agreement with the school and
intend to keep theirs going indefinitely. Hundreds of students have been arrested,
and charges have been brought against some students as well during clashes.
Overnight, more violent clashes between pro-Palestinian protesters and police,
this time at Ohio State University. Officers moved to disperse a crowd after an hours-long
demonstration, citing rules banning overnight events. More than a dozen people were arrested.
PROTESTERS: The people united will never be defeated!
AMNA NAWAZ: The latest wave of protests and encampments follow demonstrations
at Columbia University last week. Similar scenes have popped up at scores of other
colleges over the last several days and have led to hundreds of arrests.
Video from Emory University yesterday shows officers pinning a protester to the ground and
Tasing him. Some demonstrators are calling on their universities to cut financial ties with.
VINCENT DOEHR, UCLA Student: We came together to make demands on the university,
to divest the endowment from corporations that profit off of Israeli genocide,
to disclose where our money is invested in the first place.
AMNA NAWAZ: While others want to bring attention to the war in Gaza.
MOHAMMAD KHALIL, Columbia University Student: We want to be visible. The university should
do something about what we're asking about the genocide that's happening.
AMNA NAWAZ: Many say today's demonstrations echo college protests movements of the past,
including against the Vietnam War.
PROTESTER: What people in this strike are trying to tell the United States people,
the American people, is that the country shouldn't function,
the country shouldn't function while this war is going on.
AMNA NAWAZ: That includes a historic demonstration at Columbia University itself in 1968. Students
occupied campus buildings demanding the university cut ties with a think tank
involved in Pentagon weapons research. It was met with a heavy police response.
Other Vietnam War protests in the 1960s and '70s led to clashes with authorities and mass arrests,
but over time they helped to shift public opinion leading up to the eventual U.S.
withdrawal. In the 1980s, a similar movement popped up at universities
nationwide, calling for divestment from South Africa to end apartheid.
Today, some students say they're taking lessons from those very protests.
CATHERINE ELIAS, Columbia University Student: Our core demands are financial
divestment. That's been a demand from student staff and faculty
dating back to the anti-apartheid divestment movement here at Columbia.
AMNA NAWAZ: As the school year comes to a close,
there's no sign yet that this wave of protests will end before classes let out.
PROTESTER: No more hiding, no more fear!
PROTESTERS: No more hiding, no more fear!
AMNA NAWAZ: As protests of Israel's war in Gaza spread to campuses across
the country, some see parallels between today's demonstrations and college protests in the past.
Steven Mintz is a professor of history at the University of Texas at Austin, and Angus Johnston
is a professor and historian of American student culture at the City University of New York.
Welcome to you both.
Professor Johnston, let's just start with what the protesters are calling for here.
What is their focus? What do they want as a result of these demonstrations?
ANGUS JOHNSTON, Assistant Professor, City University of New York: Well, it varies
campus by campus, but primarily what we're looking for -- looking at is, they're
looking for a divestment of the universities' financial relationships with Israeli companies,
a disentanglement of the universities from relationships with the Israeli government or
military, and transparency as to the nature of those relationships where they currently exist.
AMNA NAWAZ: Professor Mintz, how do -- what do you make of the demands,
as Professor Johnston had laid them out? Is that something you think colleges can achieve?
STEVEN MINTZ, Professor of History, University of Texas at Austin: I think they're very
unlikely to be achieved.
The protests of the 1960s, it was possible to achieve some kind of accommodation. First
of all, one of the demands, an end to the military draft, received widespread support
throughout society, and Richard Nixon's administration would make that happen.
But on campuses themselves, there were some practical goals, like studies programs,
women's studies programs, coeducation at the elite private universities, an end to parietals
and in loco parentis regulations. There was a lot of ground for accommodation and compromise.
And I don't see that much right now.
AMNA NAWAZ: Professor Johnston, what do you make of that? Do you agree?
ANGUS JOHNSTON: Well, I think that the easiest, simplest demand that they're making is a demand
for transparency in their universities' relationships with Israeli institutions,
and I think that that is something that is certainly winnable on a lot of campuses.
I also think that, in a lot of ways, the anti-apartheid movement of the 1970s and
'80s is a much better analog than the mass student movement of the late '60s in some ways.
And I think it's important to remember that, in the case of the anti-apartheid movement,
the calls for divestment on campuses began in the mid-70s.
And it was a very, very long and slow process,
by which students were adjusting people's views of the crisis itself.
AMNA NAWAZ: What do you make of that, Professor Mintz? Could these protests now start what could
be a long chain of changing people's minds when it comes to how they see this issue?
STEVEN MINTZ: The context today is very different than in the 1960s or 1970s,
when higher education was growing and the federal and state investments in higher education were
increasing. Today, the situation of American higher education is extremely precarious.
Public support has diminished. Funding is hotly debated in many of the states. There
are threats in some state legislatures to tax endowments, to tax university property,
to tax university income. Donations to many of the leading universities have declined.
This is a very treacherous moment,
especially for the most well-endowed and highly selective institutions.
AMNA NAWAZ: Professor Johnston, do you agree with that? I mean,
is there a chance here that protesters run the risk of losing support the
longer these protests go on, because of this scenario, as Professor Mintz has laid it out?
ANGUS JOHNSTON: Well, I think it's important to note that the protests
themselves so far have largely been pretty moderate in their tactics.
We're not seeing, as we did in the 1960s, rioting, rocks being thrown at police, even buildings
getting burned -- being burned down. The protests themselves have been pretty moderate. The thing
that is inflaming the situation right now -- in terms of their tactics, the thing that's inflaming
the situation right now is bringing in the cops and using the police not only to engage in mass
arrests against students, but in arresting and in some cases beating and abusing faculty as well.
I think it's really important to point out that there are a number
of campuses at which the university has decided to take a hands-off approach
to these encampments. MIT is one. Berkeley is another. And at these,
the encampments have been proceeding with very little issue and very little drama.
AMNA NAWAZ: Professor Mintz, what about that? Because we have seen some pretty heavy-handed
tactics in some cases. At your campus, at the University of Texas in Austin, dozens of people
were arrested. Police in riot gear were called in to disperse the crowds. Is that necessary?
STEVEN MINTZ: Right now, we have many brand-new presidents,
unseasoned senior administrators making decisions.
One suspects that administrators who were more knowledgeable about past history,
had more experience dealing with students, had better rapport with their student populations,
that this would be playing out extremely differently.
What we need to see on the part of senior administrators is a real willingness to step out
of their offices, communicate with the students, and try to achieve some kind of accommodation.
AMNA NAWAZ: Are you saying that you don't believe that the police should
have been called in some of these circumstances?
STEVEN MINTZ: Absolutely not. And the lesson of history could not be
clearer that this only escalates the situation, it worsens the situation,
and it results in a degree of alienation that's very difficult to overcome.
AMNA NAWAZ: So, given all that, Professor Mintz, I will ask you,
and, then, Professor Johnston, if you would follow, I will just ask you both,
where do we go from here? How do you see this unfolding in the weeks ahead?
Professor Mintz?
STEVEN MINTZ: I think the conversation needs to be made more productive.
In this country, if you want political change, you build coalitions. And what I'm not seeing on
campus right now is an effort to have effective protests that will bring people
together. When people hear anti-American sentiments, they are radically turned off.
The demonstrators, in my view, should be calling for peace, for the release of the hostages,
and an American foreign policy that will really result in a two-state solution.
AMNA NAWAZ: Professor Johnston, I will give you the last word here.
ANGUS JOHNSTON: I'm really heartened by the fact that, despite what Professor Mintz has said,
a lot of faculty have been turning out in support of these students,
some of them turning out in support of the students' goals, but others turning out in
support of the students' right to protest without being harassed and without being abused by cops.
I think we are seeing the development of a new coalition on the campus. And
I'm very heartened by that. And I hope that administrators take heed of that
and do their bit to de-escalate the situation as well.
AMNA NAWAZ: That is Professor Angus Johnston from the City University
of New York and Professor Steven Mintz from the University of Texas at Austin.
Thank you both for joining us tonight.
ANGUS JOHNSTON: Thank you.
STEVEN MINTZ: You're welcome.
AMNA NAWAZ: In our interconnected, globalized economy, goods produced
in one nation end up on shelves and in stores halfway around the world. And while consumers
hope there's some way to protect the workers who make the products we buy,
some American companies have recently come under scrutiny for alleged links to forced labor.
William Brangham speaks with the journalist behind a new investigation documenting the
forced labor behind Chinese seafood that ends up on American plates.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: In recent years, Americans have been eating increasing
amounts of seafood. It's considered one of the healthier sources of protein.
But a series of new investigations by the Outlaw Ocean Project reveals that the way a
lot of that seafood ends up in our stores and on our plates comes at an extraordinary human cost,
specifically, workers from North Korea who are forced to work in
Chinese factories. Here's an excerpt of Outlaw Ocean's recent investigation.
IAN URBINA, Executive Editor, The Outlaw Ocean Project: 2023 was a highly successful year for
Donggang Jinhui Food. The seafood processing company based in Dandong, China, opened a
large new plant at its compound in this Chinese city that sits along the North Korean border.
The company doubled the amount of squid that it exported to the United States.
In celebration of its success, Jinhui threw a huge party at its annual meeting with dancers,
fireworks, and a high-tech light show.
The problem, though, is that a crucial reason for Jinhui's success was its widespread use
of cheap North Korean labor. Jinhui was part of a much bigger state-run
partnership between China and North Korea, where workers are selected by the North
Korean government and exported across the border to work in Chinese seafood plants.
This is a huge problem because it violates very clear and strict U.N. sanctions and
U.S. law prohibiting the use of North Korean workers in this very fashion.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Joining me now is the reporter you just heard,
Outlaw Ocean's founder and director, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Ian Urbina.
Great to have you back on the "NewsHour."
IAN URBINA: Thanks for having me.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: This incredibly harrowing investigation looks at a
series of these Chinese seafood plants in this city that you just mentioned
near the North Korean border with tens of thousands of North Korean workers.
Explain to us, how do those workers get from North Korea into China?
IAN URBINA: Well, this is a long-running program between China and North Korea. The two
governments coordinate the selection of workers for different industries,
then transfer them into the country, usually under two-year contracts where they stay in China,
most often at locked-down plants where they're not allowed to leave.
The North Koreans seek these jobs because they typically pay much better than what
they could earn in North Korea. And there's a rigorous selection process in North Korea
for those who get to go. They're mostly women. And the selection process by the North Korean
government usually is a vetting that ensures they don't choose people that might defect.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So this is labor for Chinese factories.
What is the upside for North Korea here?
IAN URBINA: So North Korea, because of the sanctions, largely is desperate for capital,
for money. And so this is a multimillion-dollar
moneymaking business, where they send their workers abroad.
And that foreign capital is a strong capital,
Chinese capital, that they can use to buy weapons or oil or consumer goods.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Let's look at another excerpt
about how -- what the conditions are like in some of those factories.
IAN URBINA: Workers often have to sign two or three-year contracts. After they arrive in China,
managers confiscate their passports. If workers attempt to escape or complain to
people outside the plants, their families at home can face reprisals from the government.
The work itself is relentless. Shifts at the seafood plants run 14 to 16 hours. Workers
receive up to one day off per month and few, if any, holidays or sick days. In seafood plants,
the women sleep in bunk beds in locked dormitories, sometimes with 30 people to a room.
Workers are forbidden from tuning in to local TV or radio and from leaving factory
grounds on the company. They describe loneliness, violence, and a crushing sense of captivity.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Your report also documents even worse conditions, violence,
sexual abuse, particularly among the women that you're talking about here.
Can you describe a little bit about what their lives are like?
IAN URBINA: This is a brutal type of work, long hours in tight quarters,
relentless pace. And so they're captive on facilities that are run by men.
And so this was -- one of the big revelations was the extent of sexual violence against the women,
quite especially when work stopped because of COVID. A lot of factories shut down, and so there
was no work and no income, and, therefore, the women were pressured into prostitution.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I think a lot of American consumers would be
horrified to think that the conditions under which food
that they might be eating or buying in a store comes out of conditions like this.
How does that end up here? Which retailers are we talking about?
IAN URBINA: Unfortunately, it's most retailers, most of the large ones.
So this investigation that looked specifically at the use of North Korean labor found that
some of the seafood was ending up routing through plants that are supplying Trident,
which supplies McDonald's with fish sticks, but also Sysco, largest food company in the world that
supplies public schools, and federal prisons and U.S. congressional cafeteria also getting seafood
from these plants, but then the major grocery store chains, ShopRite, Giant, Walmart also.
So the globalized world we live in and the way that seafood, in particular,
largely routes through China means that many, if not most, brands in the U.S. are tainted by this.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So when you approach these companies and say, here's what
we're documenting coming out of China and the conditions there, what do they say in response?
IAN URBINA: Most stonewall us and don't answer questions. Some engage and say,
we're taking it seriously, we're investigating, we will get back to you. And still others say,
we have taken this seriously, we have severed ties with this plant in particular.
The overall underlying issue is, the audits, the sort of inspections that they're supposed
to be doing to check for these issues aren't working. This auditing market,
which sends inspectors into plants, whether it's soccer balls or iPhones
or seafood around the world, has big problems, big challenges.
Often, they're not doing unannounced visits. They're doing announced visits,
so they tell the plant when they're coming. That's a flaw. But the other
big flaw is that China is a distinct environment, and there are certain
things not allowed in China. If you want to stay in the country, whether you're a
journalism organization or an auditing firm or seafood company, there's certain no-go topics.
And human rights and Uyghurs and North Koreans are topics
you can't bring up on Monday and expect to still be in the country on Wednesday.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Ian Urbina. The project is called the Outlaw Ocean Project.
Thank you so much for being here.
IAN URBINA: Thanks for having me.
AMNA NAWAZ: Legal cases involving former President Trump and some of his closest associates play out
in state courts, the Supreme Court and the court of public opinion. Meanwhile, as foreign aid
begins to arrive in Ukraine and the Middle East, protests boil over on campuses across the U.S.
For more on a consequential week overseas and here at home, we turn to the analysis
of Brooks and Capehart. That is New York Times columnist David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart,
associate editor for The Washington Post.
Great to see you both.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Hey, Amna.
AMNA NAWAZ: So, a big week when it comes to the legal battles surrounding former President Trump.
Let's start at the Supreme Court.
David, justices there heard arguments about Trump's potential immunity,
which his lawyers argue should be absolute. What did you take
away from the arguments and the way the justices seem to be approaching this?
DAVID BROOKS: Well, a lot of commentary on the fact that
a lot of the more conservative justices didn't seem interested in Donald Trump,
the case right in front of them. They were interested in the precedent.
And I do find it intellectually interesting, but it was a little weird that Trump
was barely mentioned in some cases. And so, normally, you would say, yes, a president's
not above the law, of course. it's simple. President's not above law. No one's above law.
But if you look at democracies in decline,
then it is a pattern that people in office use their power to indict and criminalize
and throw in jail that people who were in office before them of the opposing party.
And so we are a nation, democracy in decline. And so it does make you think,
well, if the Republicans would try to indict Ali Mayorkas and impeach him,
well, then maybe once they come in office, they will criminalize some of
this action. And maybe there should be some protections against that.
I don't know where you would draw the line between those presidential actions
which are immune to indictments and convictions and those where
you're not. But in a democracy and decline, you really have to think,
how do we build in more guardrails so we don't start criminalizing political disagreement?
AMNA NAWAZ: How do you look at it, Jonathan?
JONATHAN CAPEHART: I mean, the first thing we can do as an American electorate
is electorate is no longer elect someone who would crash through the guardrails
and electing other people who would enable that person to crash through the guardrails.
I mean, I agree with David. The idea that the Supreme Court could possibly hand down a ruling
that would force Judge Chutkan to go through the counts and figure out what are private acts
and what are official acts in order to determine whether the former president is immune is insane.
I mean, this country is almost 250 years old, if my math is right. Only until the
election of Donald Trump have we ever had to even contemplate this question. And so until we stop
electing chief executives who lack the shame gene, yes, maybe we will have to answer this question.
But the fact that we are here is -- it's really disturbing. And listening to the
questioning back and forth really made me wonder whether the Supreme
Court -- do they really want to squander their public standing, such as it is,
by handing down a decision that everyone will look at and go, what are you doing?
AMNA NAWAZ: Can I hear from both of you briefly on this? Do you think we will
get a clear answer from them on this, Jonathan?
JONATHAN CAPEHART: I don't think so.
AMNA NAWAZ: No?
David?
DAVID BROOKS: I don't think so either, no.
AMNA NAWAZ: OK. We're moving on then.
(LAUGHTER)
AMNA NAWAZ: We will come back to that.
There were a few other cases I want to get your takes on as well, because they're very
different. They, of course, both involve former President Trump. In New York, there is the hush
money trial that's continuing that's related to a payment he made to adult actress back in 2016.
We heard testimony from a tabloid publisher named David Pecker this week confirming that
he did bury stories that could have harmed then-candidate Trump. Meanwhile, in Arizona,
two of Trump's closest advisers, his former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows and
former attorney Rudy Giuliani, were among 18 people indicted in the fake
electors scheme there to help overturn Trump's 2020 election loss to Joe Biden.
David, did either of those developments in these
cases, do you think, change the landscape for Trump?
DAVID BROOKS: I don't think they change the landscape for him.
I was morbidly fascinated by the tabloid editor -- publisher's testimony.
AMNA NAWAZ: Really?
DAVID BROOKS: Because that is not the way we do journalism.
AMNA NAWAZ: Right.
DAVID BROOKS: Like, paying people hush money,
burying stories, it's just like a moral netherworld that Trump had entered.
Somehow, when -- I was reminded, I was once in the '80s invited to a party opening Trump
Plaza. And Trump is there with all his cronies. And I look around the room,
it's all the people you think are kind of corrupt. And a buddy of mine sees
me across the room and comes up to me and says, "Not indicted, not invited."
(LAUGHTER)
DAVID BROOKS: I remember thinking, like,
we're really entering a different layer of New York than I was used to.
AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.
DAVID BROOKS: And that's what we're confronting. And we have
been confronting it for a bunch of years. But...
AMNA NAWAZ: Jonathan, how do you look at these cases?
JONATHAN CAPEHART: The testimony of David Pecker was fascinating.
I mean, I lived and worked in New York for 16 years.
AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: I worked at The New York Daily News. So The New York Post was a competitor.
And so we...
AMNA NAWAZ: You knew this world.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: So I know this world. So David
Pecker is not foreign to me. What he's talking about is not foreign to me.
But I think for the larger public to hear what really goes on, particularly
with that kind of tabloid newspaper, I think is fascinating. And, also, let's not forget,
we're talking about a former president who is in court over particular hush money payments,
who has been found liable for fraud and for sexual assault,
who couldn't be in Washington for the immunity hearing from when he was president.
This guy is going to spend more -- has been spending more time in
court than on the campaign trail to run for reelection. I think what makes this
week and this case so fascinating is that we're watching this guy be held
accountable for at least a sliver of what he has possibly, allegedly, done.
AMNA NAWAZ: And, meanwhile, in the New York case,
we should mention he's now violated the gag order a total of 15 times.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: And counting, we should say, and counting.
AMNA NAWAZ: I mean, is there any way for former President Trump to be reined in on that front?
DAVID BROOKS: I think his entire administration tried to do that
for four years, and it didn't seem to work. I don't think there's a way to rein him in.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: It's not -- no.
(LAUGHTER)
AMNA NAWAZ: I need to ask you about President Biden as well,
because we should mention, as you know, oftentimes, when authorities don't want
you to talk too much about something, it will get announced on a Friday afternoon.
We did have an announcement today from the Biden administration. They are delaying their
decision -- or their plans, rather, to ban menthol cigarettes. We know that's known for its appeal
to Black smokers in particular. Some 81 percent of Black adult smokers smoke menthol cigarettes.
David, this has been an effort the FDA has been pushing for 10 years now. It's
been through three administrations. They have failed to get it across the finish
line. But why do you think the Biden administration decided to do this now?
DAVID BROOKS: Well, I haven't spoken about it,
but I hope it was out of a sense of some sense that adults can make up their own mind.
I, frankly, had the reaction the way when Bloomberg, Mike Bloomberg in New York tried
to ban the Big Gulp sodas. It's like too much nanny state. Now, I have seen the studies on
the menthol cigarettes. They're -- the FDA does say a lot fewer people will smoke if we ban them.
But at some point, we're a democracy where people, adults get to be treated like adults.
And everyone knows this stuff is really bad for you. And people make their own decisions.
AMNA NAWAZ: Jonathan, as you know, he's faced accusations, of course,
that this is about politics, that this could
alienate Black voters that President Biden needs. What do you make of that?
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, I'm going to jump off of what David was talking about.
But cigarettes are addictive. And menthol is particularly addictive. And when you're
talking about an addictive substance in an addictive product that has a disproportionate
impact on African Americans, well, sorry, as an African American,
I look at the FDA and say, you know what, good for you. You should be doing this.
Folks should be forced to quit, meaning, this is not good for you. This is about attempting
to save your life. And I think -- I maybe agree with you on Mike Bloomberg and the Big Gulp sodas.
But the first thing Mike Bloomberg did when he was mayor of New York City that people started
screaming about the nanny state was banning cigarettes in bars. And now -- in restaurants.
And now everyone loves him for it. And so I think, sure, if the Biden administration
is trying to play politics by dumping this announcement on a Friday afternoon,
fine. Elections are decided on the margins. But in the end,
what the FDA is proposing needs to be done. It's about saving lives.
AMNA NAWAZ: Meanwhile, as you saw earlier in the show,
we continue to report on the spread of these campus protests, pro-Palestinian
protests, by and large, and protesting Israel's war conduct in Gaza.
David, they have spread very quickly. They are sustaining on campuses. How do
you look at these? I mean, should these be a sort of warning signs to the Biden
administration? What do you make of how quickly and widely they spread?
DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I have been frustrated that people aren't making some distinctions here.
So I think most of the protesters are appalled by the horrors the
Palestinians are suffering and they're well-motivated by compassion. There are
some people who are probably hard left people, and they get to have their views.
There are a lot of people who are antisemitic and violent. And so you should not be able to say,
as one of the Columbia students said, Zionists don't deserve to live. If that happens,
you should be expelled. And so, in my view, they should let them protest. But if somebody
says something, "Go back to Poland," or even a pro-Palestinian or pro-Israeli,
"Go back to Gaza," that's ruining the community of the campus.
And so those people should be expelled. So that's the distinction that should be made. And, somehow,
the people who are really threatening the community by threatening violence, they're
not being expelled. And I think that would have the deterrent effect that would separate really
the bad actors from the people who are just well-motivated to do -- to try to save lives.
As for the Biden administration,
I do worry that the Chicago convention is going to look a lot like 1968.
AMNA NAWAZ: Really?
DAVID BROOKS: And that will just be terrible for the Biden administration.
The president will look hapless and powerless.
One other final thing that I just found interesting,
Harvard does this survey. What are young adults interested in, what issues? Israel, Gaza is 15
out of 60. And so a lot of people I know are passionately in on both sides of this issue.
AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.
DAVID BROOKS: But most young voters are interested in inflation, crime,
health care, the normal issues. And so it's important for us, those -- especially those
of us who are in educated circles, not to generalize from our own immediate experience,
because a lot of people are thinking about very different things than this.
AMNA NAWAZ: Jonathan?
JONATHAN CAPEHART: I would say I agree with you, David.
I think the discussion about what's happening on these in
these protests is missing a lot of nuance. Not everyone who's protesting is antisemitic,
is rooting for violence or is he even causing the violence? They are there for legitimate reasons.
And I agree with David. If a person of the college community is disrupting and saying racist,
antisemitic things, then, yes, they should be expelled. But we also should be mindful that,
who are these people who are saying these things? Some might be members
of the university or college community, but some could be from the outside.
And my big fear from the BLM movement is, folks from the outside
causing violence and then the blame being foisted upon the people who are legitimately
protesting. And that is my big concern when we talk about this latest national protest.
AMNA NAWAZ: Well, here's to nuance. Here's to
facts. Thank you to both of you for bringing those to the table always.
Jonathan Capehart, David Brooks, always good to see you.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks, Amna.
AMNA NAWAZ:
Few musical acts have enjoyed the success and the long run of the legendary band Bon Jovi.
And a revealing new documentary series premiering tonight on Hulu
tracks the highs and the lows of the Grammy Award-winning band's four decades together.
Recently, Geoff Bennett spoke with front man
Jon Bon Jovi about "Thank You, Goodnight: The Bon Jovi Story."
It's for our arts and culture series, Canvas.
GEOFF BENNETT: Jon Bon Jovi, welcome to the "NewsHour."
JON BON JOVI, Musician: Thank you, Geoff. Happy to be here.
GEOFF BENNETT: Yes, it's great to have you here.
This docuseries is a real, honest look at the band's triumphs, its setbacks. What has this
experience been like, reliving your past and then considering what it all means for your future?
JON BON JOVI: It was emotional when we saw rough cut, because
a lot of life was lived in these last 40 years.
GEOFF BENNETT: Why share so much and why share it now?
JON BON JOVI: Well, 40 is a milestone. Even if it's only the first 40,
40 years is a long time to have been making music as we have.
So I wanted to mark this milestone. We were archiving everything,
that I didn't realize or a hoarder I have become.
(LAUGHTER)
JON BON JOVI: So it made it easy for the storytelling.
And then about this vocal surgery was not a part of the plan. But this is a
couple years in the making, this film. So that just happened. And I'm not
afraid to show emotion. It's just that we typically hadn't had the platform for it.
GEOFF BENNETT: To have led one of the world's most successful bands,
to have a 40-year run doing that, that doesn't happen by accident. What has it required of you?
JON BON JOVI: I love what I do, but it's hard work. It's like anything else. It's your craft,
but it's also your passion, and then by being true to who and what you are,
which was important early on and to remain true to that, you evolve as a man and as a writer.
And people come along for that ride.
GEOFF BENNETT: And you found success early,
in your early 20s. How were you able to grapple with megawatt fame so early in life?
JON BON JOVI: I can't tell you that I could write the book on it, but,
in truth, probably our upbringing, where we were from, the time in which we were born, family.
The band could close the door and say, "Do you believe what just happened"?
(LAUGHTER)
JON BON JOVI: So a lot of that was living your life.
GEOFF BENNETT: You talk in the docuseries about one of your
biggest musical influences, Bruce Springsteen.
I didn't realize until watching this that you
actually played with his band when you were in high school?
JON BON JOVI: He jumped up on stage with my band when I was still in high school.
GEOFF BENNETT: Well, that's even better. He played with your band when you were in high school.
How has your relationship evolved since then?
JON BON JOVI: Well, obviously,
it's something that I treasure. He's so many millions of people's hero.
But growing up 25 miles away from that Jersey Shore scene, where he made it famous,
and then Southside Johnny followed up in those footsteps, those were guys that not only I could
look up to who were 12 and 13 years older, but they made the impossible seem very possible,
because they were, in essence, right outside your window.
And now our relationships, of course, are bonded forever, because we have become very close.
GEOFF BENNETT: Well, as I mentioned, this docuseries focuses on the band's setbacks.
And you mentioned your vocal cord surgery. It was April of 2022.
JON BON JOVI: Right.
GEOFF BENNETT: You were performing in Nashville. You came off stage
and realized you might not ever be able to perform live again?
JON BON JOVI: Well, it's not that I couldn't. It was more of a decision that maybe I wouldn't.
I tried everything I could. There was something happening,
but a picture couldn't show it to you. When a singer has something like a nodule,
it's in essence a pimple on a vocal cord. You can see it visually. I wasn't having that.
What I was realizing that one of my vocal cords was atrophying. And after a lot of holistic and
praying and anything I could do, including going out on the road to try to beat it into shape,
I'd come to the conclusion that I needed to find the right surgeon. And I did.
GEOFF BENNETT: And there is no Bon Jovi without you and your voice.
What did that feel like to potentially have the thing that you love to do taken away from you?
JON BON JOVI: The truth is, I hadn't had to think
about that because I have always been in the process of getting to the recovery.
The new album is proof that the surgery has worked. For me now, the bar is getting back to
that two-and-a-half-hours a night, four nights a week. So that's the process that I'm in now.
GEOFF BENNETT: The docuseries also features your former guitarist Richie Sambora,
who you described as your perfect foil. What do you mean by that?
JON BON JOVI: Well, everybody wants a right-hand man,
if they're lucky enough they have a friend like that.
And he had come to see me many years ago. He says: "I need to be your guitar player." When
we clicked and hit it off, he became that perfect right-hand man. And, in 2013, he left the band.
GEOFF BENNETT: How big of an adjustment was it when he officially left?
JON BON JOVI: Well, there was a big black hole on that side of the stage,
for sure, but there was nothing that was going to hinder me from
continuing to write records and go out there and sell out shows.
Sorry to say it, but look at the marquee, you know?
(LAUGHTER)
GEOFF BENNETT: Has he watched this docuseries?
JON BON JOVI: We watched it together. And it was wonderfully emotional to be together,
just the two of us watching it.
GEOFF BENNETT: What do you believe sets Bon Jovi apart from other bands?
JON BON JOVI: I don't know. I mean, if I did, I'd bottle it and sell it to somebody else.
(LAUGHTER)
JON BON JOVI: But I think it was the hard work, the joy of doing it.
We persevered by writing songs that people could relate to.
And I have been on this 40-year journey, that people may have gotten off the ride
along the way,but it's been honest and open. And so you can feel yourself in
those shoes in different parts of your life the way I have written about them in mine.
GEOFF BENNETT: Yes, well, one of those songs,
"Livin' on a Prayer," classic, one of the best rock melodies ever.
But when you were writing it, you thought, I'm not so sure about this. Maybe it's a
song for a movie soundtrack. How did that song ultimately come to life?
JON BON JOVI: Well, it evolved.
When we'd written it on that day, it was a very simple chord structure. The melody,
the lyric was finished. We knew all of that. But it came to life when the band
got in the room and we developed the bass line, and Tico came in playing the drums.
And that's when it popped. That's when the key change happened at the end.
(SINGING)
JON BON JOVI: That's how we wrote it.
(MUSIC)
JON BON JOVI: With an acoustic guitar and a stand-up piano.
(LAUGHTER)
JON BON JOVI: There was no drum machines in those days. There was nothing like that. So,
I was like, yes, it's good. It's good.
GEOFF BENNETT: Did you know then that it could be as enduring as it is?
JON BON JOVI: No. In truth, Geoff, it wasn't the first single on the album.
"You Give Love a Bad Name" was the first single, because that sort of
sounded like what was on the radio, what a hit song sounded like. When we wrote that,
when we were like, I think we got one here. "Prayer" was so different.
And it was the second single, and, of course, the billions of steams and all that stuff later.
GEOFF BENNETT: Right, right.
JON BON JOVI: Who knew?
(MUSIC)
GEOFF BENNETT: Well, you have got a new album coming out in June, recorded in Nashville.
JON BON JOVI: Yes.
GEOFF BENNETT: What does Nashville lend to the Bon Jovi sound?
JON BON JOVI: I remember, when I was a kid, my mom said, find your influences' influences.
And when we were talking a little bit off camera,
somebody had said to me during the course of this promo tour, what's the first music
you remember hearing? And the thing that came to mind initially was Beatles and Gene Autry.
GEOFF BENNETT: Really?
JON BON JOVI: So there was always a little bit of a country thing
that I was aware of as a little boy. But it wasn't what drew me to music.
What draws me to the city is, I jokingly say,
these are my people. The -- it's a songwriters community. Every guy
that's pumping gas is a great songwriter. And they're still making a living doing it.
GEOFF BENNETT: You think you might tour again?
JON BON JOVI: I hope so.
GEOFF BENNETT: Yes, yes. Well, so do we.
JON BON JOVI: Thank you.
GEOFF BENNETT: Jon Bon Jovi, the new docuseries is "Thank You, Goodnight: The
Bon Jovi Story," streaming now on Hulu and Disney+.
JON BON JOVI: Thanks.
GEOFF BENNETT: Really great to talk with you.
JON BON JOVI: And you, buddy. Thank you.
(MUSIC)
AMNA NAWAZ: Later tonight on PBS, actor John Lithgow goes back to school.
In "Art Happens Here With John Lithgow," the author and humorist shares his passion
for arts education, trying his hand at pottery, printmaking, dancing, and singing.
(SINGING)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
JOHN LITHGOW, Actor: I choose to take that as a compliment.
(LAUGHTER)
STUDENT: I have a question for you, Miss B.
WOMAN: Yes.
STUDENT: Does he need to use his falsetto for
"Snowflake," because he seems more comfortable without it?
(CROSSTALK)
WOMAN: When he first did it, he didn't use it.
JOHN LITHGOW: I think I have dropped it the last few times. And it's fine.
STUDENT: It's good.
WOMAN: I believe it's like, for everybody here, it's confidence,
that you have the confidence, because the confidence controls how you perform.
JOHN LITHGOW: Yes.
WOMAN: That's all it is.
JOHN LITHGOW: Yes. And just, what the heck? It's my voice. So I sing in my voice.
WOMAN: Yes.
JOHN LITHGOW: And I don't think anybody will be throwing things at me.
WOMAN: No, they better not.
(LAUGHTER)
AMNA NAWAZ: "Art Happens Here With John Lithgow" premieres
tonight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern right here on PBS.
And be sure to tune into "Washington Week With
The Atlantic" tonight for a look at former President Trump's turbulent
week in court and the pro-Palestinian protests erupting across the country.
And on "PBS News Weekend": how Ecuador went from
a model of stability in South America to a hotbed of gang violence and turf wars.
And that's the "NewsHour" for tonight. I'm Amna Nawaz.
On behalf of the entire "NewsHour" team, thank you for joining us.