And the first guy is Merrick Garland, okay?

第一個人是梅里克-加蘭 好嗎 And the first guy is Merrick Garland, okay?

And Lisa Monaco is in there, who the nation doesn't know.

麗莎-摩納哥也在其中，全國人民都不認識她。

We're trying to make these people famous.

我們想讓這些人成名。

So no, first of all, it has to happen.

所以，不，首先，它必鬚髮生。

Number two, it's going to happen.

第二，它一定會發生。

That sounded to me like, first of all, a message to Kash Patel, who is on the Hill, like all the other nominees, trying to make good with some of these senators.

在我看來，這首先是給卡什-帕特爾（Kash Patel）的一條資訊，他和其他被提名人一樣，正在國會山努力與一些參議員搞好關係。

This is not something you can back away from.

這不是你能迴避的問題。

How is Kash Patel going to explain this if he has to back away from some of this retribution that he himself laid out in his book?

如果卡什-帕特爾不得不迴避他自己在書中提出的一些報應，他又該如何解釋呢？

Well, I'm glad you said that because the senators are going to be the ones holding his feet to the fire on this because he's going to start bleeding support if he doesn't have a good answer.

我很高興你能這麼說，因為參議員們將會在這個問題上對他指手畫腳，因為如果他沒有一個好的答案，他的支持率就會開始下降。

And the answer is he needs to show evidence to prove it.

答案是他需要拿出證據來證明。

Like I think we all are for rooting out corruption in our government, for rooting it out at the FBI, for rooting it out at DOJ.

我想我們都支持根除政府腐敗，支持根除聯邦調查局的腐敗，支持根除司法部的腐敗。

Sign me up.

給我報名

And there is plenty of history to look back on at the FBI and DOJ of wrongdoing.

回顧歷史，聯邦調查局和司法部的不法行為比比皆是。

We know it became, the DOJ became, FBI became more political under Comey, but he needs to show evidence or else the support that he's building will crumble.

我們知道，在科米的上司下，司法部和聯邦調查局變得更加政治化，但他需要拿出證據，否則他所建立的支持就會崩潰。

I was thinking more of during the Civil Rights Movement.

我更多想到的是民權運動時期。

Oh, well, that too, for sure.

哦，那也是肯定的。

Or Martin Luther King.

或者馬丁-路德-金。

Yeah, I mean, exactly.

是啊，我的意思是，正是如此。

You'd be more negligent in phrasing that.

你的措辭會更疏忽。

I mean, but look, one of the things that Bannon, I mean, Bannon in this Bulwark interview talked about a lot of things.

班農在 "堡壘之夜 "的採訪中談到了很多事情。

First of all, he said it's gonna happen, right?

首先，他說會發生的，對吧？

But then he talks about the types of investigations.

但他隨後談到了調查的類型。

And as we know, a lot of it surrounds Trump.

我們知道，很多事情都與特朗普有關。

He says there's a vast criminal conspiracy, including the media's.

他說這是一個巨大的犯罪陰謀，包括媒體的陰謀。

Was it Andrew Weissman and all of those FBI guys that work on MSNBC?

是安德魯-魏斯曼和那些在MSNBC工作的聯邦調查局人員嗎？

I think there will be big investigations into all of these people.

我認為會對所有這些人進行大調查。

I think there's gonna be huge investigations, I believe, into 2020.

我認為，到2020年，還會有大量的調查。

I think it's gonna be a huge investigation on January 6th.

我認為 1 月 6 日的調查會很轟動。

The Fed's erection?

美聯儲的勃起？

Yeah.

是啊

What?

什麼？

It's insane.

太瘋狂了

It's gonna be a huge investigation about the vast criminal conspiracy against President Trump.

這將是一場針對特朗普總統的巨大犯罪陰謀的大規模調查。

I mean, really?

我是說，真的嗎？

It's an effort to rewrite reality, right?

這是一種改寫現實的努力，對嗎？

I mean, there was an election.

我的意思是，有一次選舉。

It was considered a safe and secure election.

這被認為是一次安全可靠的選舉。

There was an attack on the Capitol and everything that followed.

國會大廈遭到襲擊，隨後發生了一切。

But now we have somebody who's been reelected who still never acknowledged that that election was legitimate.

但現在，我們有一個連任的人，他仍然從不承認那次選舉是合法的。

We've had four years of President Biden.

拜登總統當了四年總統。

He is leaving.

他要走了。

Election went for Donald Trump, yet they're still litigating four years ago.

選舉結果是唐納德-特朗普獲勝，但四年前他們仍在打官司。

And Bannon is not in a position to be in the White House at the moment.

而班農目前並不適合入主白宮。

He is not the senior advisor or chief of staff.

他不是高級顧問或參謀長。

So he's finding ways.

所以他正在想辦法。

Yeah, and he's very influential.

是的，他很有影響力。

I mean, he is, he's out of prison now.

我是說，他現在已經出獄了。

And I think that he thinks of himself as one of the many kind of leaders of the MAGA army, the sort of rank and file who empowered Donald Trump.

我認為他認為自己是 MAGA 軍隊的眾多領導者之一，是那些支持唐納德-特朗普的官兵。

Yeah, by the way, if he were so convinced that there was wrongdoing by the federal government on January 6th, why not provide that evidence and cooperate with the subpoena that he received from the January 6th election?

是啊，順便問一句，如果他如此確信聯邦政府在 1 月 6 日有不法行為，為什麼不提供證據並配合他在 1 月 6 日選舉中收到的傳票呢？

Steve Bannon doesn't believe this stuff, but this is a feature of authoritarianism.

史蒂夫-班農不相信這些東西，但這是專制主義的一個特徵。

You have to go after your political opponents by weaponizing the justice system.

你必須利用司法系統的武器來對付你的政治對手。

And you also have to rewrite history, even if it is history that we all watch unfold in starkly different ways with our own eyes.

你還必須改寫歷史，即使是我們親眼目睹的以截然不同的方式展開的歷史。

I lived through January 6th, but you didn't even have to do that to know exactly what happened, what incited that insurrection at the Capitol and who was responsible.

我經歷了 1 月 6 日，但你甚至不需要這樣做就能知道到底發生了什麼，是什麼煽動了國會大廈的叛亂，誰該對此負責。

In fact, you have a number of senators and other high profile Republicans on the record condemning Donald Trump in the hours and in the days afterwards.

事實上，許多參議員和其他知名共和黨人都在事後數小時和數天內公開譴責唐納德-特朗普。

And then what happened?

然後呢？

The force of political pressure was brought to bear on these people.

這些人受到了政治壓力的影響。

Can I put something on the table that's a little bit of whiplash?

我可以在桌子上放一點鞭子嗎？

Here's Steve Bannon talking about what needs to happen from a fiscal perspective in a Trump administration.

以下是史蒂夫-班農（Steve Bannon）從財政角度談特朗普政府需要做的事情。

Listen.

聽著

I hate to say this.

我不想這麼說。

I know you got a bunch of still Republican orthodox folks out here.

我知道你們這裡有一群仍然是共和黨正統派的人。

You're gonna have to raise taxes on the wealthy.

你必須提高富人的稅收。

Hey, both parties got us into this.

嘿，兩黨都把我們拖下水了。

Only the populist nationalists can do it.

只有民粹民族主義者才能做到這一點。

We can get it out.

我們可以把它弄出來。

I don't know what the reception was in that audience.

我不知道觀眾的反應如何。

He sounded a little tepid, but he's talking, he's serious about this.

他聽起來有點不溫不火，但他在說話，他是認真的。

He told Semphor later.

他後來告訴 Semphor。

He also, he believes raising taxes on the wealthy is the only way to get the other part of the Trump agenda, which is tax cuts into existence.

他還認為，提高對富人的稅收是實現特朗普議程的另一部分--減稅--的唯一途徑。

Well, it's kind of fascinating to me because we've been listening to Democrats saying the only reason what was happening on the Hill was because, oh, President Trump went to that debt ceiling so he could give all of his rich friends a tax break.

這對我來說有點吸引人，因為我們一直在聽民主黨人說，國會山發生的事情的唯一原因是，哦，特朗普總統提高了債務上限，這樣他就可以給他所有的富人朋友減稅了。

Now we have very prominent people in the movement talking about we may have to raise taxes on the wealthy.

現在，我們的運動中有非常傑出的人士在談論我們可能必須對富人增稅。

It's never unpopular to say that, right?

這樣說總不會不受歡迎吧？

I mean, like, I think we had bipartisanship right there.

我的意思是，就像，我認為我們有兩黨就在那裡。

You were agreeing with Steve Bannon, weren't you?

你同意史蒂夫-班農的觀點，是嗎？

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

是的，是的，當然。

So, I mean, it's never unpopular.

所以，我的意思是，它從來不會不受歡迎。

But do you think he's right?

但你認為他說得對嗎？

I mean- Some of the American people, by the way.

我是說，順便說一下，有些美國人。

Overwhelmingly the American people.

絕大多數是美國人民。

If you believe in populism, Trump is a populist candidate.

如果你相信民粹主義，特朗普就是一位民粹主義候選人。

I'd like to hear how high he'd like to raise them.

我想聽聽他想把它們提高到什麼程度。

I'd like to hear how high he'd like to take the corporate tax.

我想聽聽他想把公司稅提高到什麼程度。

We had the highest rate in the world at 35%.

我們的比率是世界上最高的，達到 35%。

Now we're down closer to the average.

現在我們更接近平均水平了。

Okay, we want a tax, let's hear it from him.

好吧，我們要徵稅，那就聽聽他怎麼說。

I'd like to see his proposal.

我想看看他的提議。

The irony is that- You'll find out a lot of people aren't as rich as they think.

諷刺的是，你會發現很多人並不像他們想象的那樣富有。

Oh, yeah, and Trump was one of them, right?

哦，對了，特朗普也是其中之一，對嗎？

The irony being that he managed to work the tax system and call himself a billionaire, yet for many years pay zero in taxes.

具有諷刺意味的是，他設法利用稅收制度，稱自己是億萬富翁，但多年來納稅額為零。

So that's part of it.

所以這也是一部分原因。

It's not just tax the wealthy.

不只是向富人徵稅。

It would be great if Doge decided to actually look at the tax code and plug up some of those holes that allow people who are wealthy to not pay as much as people who are poor.

如果 Doge 決定真正研究一下稅法，堵住那些讓富人不用像窮人一樣交那麼多稅的漏洞，那就再好不過了。

But I would also just make the point, and Ronald Reagan once said, you can grow the economy as big as you want, you can tax people as much as you want, but it's worth a hill of beans if we don't get our addiction to spending under control.

羅納德-里根曾經說過，你可以隨心所欲地發展經濟，你可以隨心所欲地向人們徵稅，但如果我們不控制我們的支出癮，這一切都不值一提。

That's where we're at.

這就是我們的現狀。

So, and you're completely correct.

所以，你說得完全正確。

It's very easy to say raise taxes on them.

對他們加稅很容易。

It's very hard to pick a number of what is fair.

很難選出一個公平的數字。

But rich people don't just pay income tax.

但富人並不只繳納所得稅。

Often they pay different taxes that make up for- Actually, rich people tend to not pay income tax at all.

事實上，富人往往根本不繳納所得稅。

Exactly.

沒錯。

So, but my point is making the tax code fair, yes.

所以，但我的觀點是讓稅法變得公平，是的。

The rate, that's where I would have it.

率，這就是我的想法。

I remember the alternative to minimum tax.

我記得最低稅的替代方案。

The rate used to be so much higher.

以前的比例要高得多。

That was gonna hit 55 families.

這將打擊 55 個家庭。

All these middle class people were getting hit with it.

所有這些中產階級都受到了打擊。

We had to fix that years later.

多年後，我們不得不解決這個問題。

I mean, a lot of things sound real good.

我的意思是，很多事情聽起來都很不錯。

Here's the thing.

事情是這樣的

I mean, and I think, T.W., you're certainly right, especially from a conservative perspective.

我的意思是，我認為，T.W.，你肯定是對的，尤其是從保守派的角度來看。

You gotta talk about spending.

你得談談開支。

Donald Trump was president for four years.

唐納德-特朗普當了四年總統。

He didn't do any of that.

他什麼都沒做。

He didn't reduce spending.

他沒有減少開支。

He increased the deficit.

他增加了赤字。

He's not that interested in cutting because it's not very popular to cut.

他對切割並不感興趣，因為切割並不受歡迎。

It's gonna have to happen at some point, right?

總有一天會發生的，對吧？

We're going to get to that point.

我們會走到這一步的。

When?

什麼時候？

I don't know, because it seems like it used to be Republicans and Democrats would fight over how much money we're gonna spend, and now we fight over how we're gonna spend it.

我不知道，因為以前共和黨人和民主黨人似乎會為我們要花多少錢而爭吵，而現在我們則為如何花錢而爭吵。

Like, we all spend a lot, but how are we actually spending it?

比如，我們都花了很多錢，但我們究竟是怎麼花的呢？

But we'll see what happens in the future.

但我們會看到未來會發生什麼。

Let's be honest.

實話實說吧。

Most of the federal spending is on autopilot.

大部分聯邦支出都是自動駕駛的。

It's Medicare, Medicaid.

是醫療保險和醫療補助。

It's Social Security.

是社會保障。

It's interest on the debt, and it's also, of course, things like, oh, veterans' benefits.

這是債務利息，當然還有退伍軍人福利等。

Let's not forget the massive check that is defense spending.

我們不要忘記國防開支這張鉅額支票。

Which is, okay, less than 30% is discretionary spending.

其中，可自由支配的支出不到 30%。

Of that, half is defense.

其中，一半是防守。

So we can wipe out the whole discretionary budget, about 1.7 trillion in the United States, and we still wouldn't get to $2 trillion.

是以，我們可以把美國約 1.7 萬億美元的可自由支配預算全部抹去，但仍無法達到 2 萬億美元。

I mean, that gets rid of Defense Department, Homeland Security, basically everything the government does.

我的意思是，這樣一來，國防部、國土安全部，基本上所有政府的工作都會被取消。

Republicans have said they want to cut spending by 2.5 trillion.

共和黨人表示，他們希望削減 2.5 萬億美元的開支。

How do you do that without cutting Social Security?

如何在不削減社會保障的情況下做到這一點？

Well, you can't ignore that.

你不能忽視這一點。

At some point, the math has to start mathing, and nobody's, we're talking about Doge, nobody's talking numbers.

在某些時候，數學必須開始計算，而沒有人，我們談論的是 Doge，沒有人談論數字。

And until that happens, this is all just gonna be fairy tales and unicorns.

在此之前，這一切都只能是童話和獨角獸。