I think of you as like another species.

我覺得你就像另一個物種。

My kids think the same thing.

我的孩子們也是這麼想的。

Really?

真的嗎？

Why do they think it?

他們為什麼會這麼想？

Because they're teenagers.

因為他們是青少年。

Well, if we're in agreement, maybe it's true then.

好吧，如果我們意見一致，那也許就是真的了。

What does it feel like when you win?

獲勝時是什麼感覺？

I mean, it feels good, but it means I'm just on to the next thing.

我的意思是，這感覺很好，但這意味著我又要開始下一件事了。

Do you ever feel satisfied?

你感到過滿足嗎？

Yeah, I feel satisfied because I know I'm learning.

是的，我感到很滿足，因為我知道我在學習。

I love to learn, right?

我喜歡學習，對嗎？

And I know I'm still competing.

我知道我還在競爭。

You know, when I first started, I was the youngest guy in the room, you know, and people were like, oh, you're too young, whatever.

你知道，剛開始的時候，我是房間裡最年輕的人，你知道，人們會說，哦，你太年輕了，隨便你怎麼說。

Now I'm the oldest guy walking in the room, and I'm like, well, what's this guy know about technology or AI?

現在，我是房間裡最年長的人，我就想，這傢伙懂什麼技術或人工智能？

Why are you trying to compete with all these big companies?

你為什麼要與這些大公司競爭？

They're going to kick your ass.

他們會踢你的屁股。

I'm like, let's go, you know?

我想，我們走吧，你知道嗎？

That's motivating to me.

這對我很有激勵作用。

He's sort of the type of person that I understand least in the world.

他是我在這個世界上最不瞭解的一類人。

His whole life is about competition and beating the competition.

他的整個生活就是競爭和擊敗對手。

And he said that he wakes up thinking about the competition, and I think that's actually insane, and I can't imagine existing that way.

他說他一覺醒來就想著比賽，我覺得這簡直是瘋了，我無法想象這樣的生活。

We're going to figure out if there's something wrong with me or something wrong with him.

我們要弄清楚是我出了問題，還是他出了問題。

I think it might be me.

我想可能是我。

America has its fair share of eccentric billionaires.

美國有很多古怪的億萬富翁。

Mark Cuban is not quite that.

馬克-庫班並非如此。

In a lot of ways, the weirdest thing about him is how aggressively normal he seems.

從很多方面來看，他最奇怪的地方在於他看起來是多麼的積極正常。

But for weirdness, it's hard to top hearing one of the richest people in the country say that paying taxes is something that they look forward to.

但說到怪異，很難有人比得上聽到全國最富有的人之一說納稅是他們最期待的事情。

One of the most patriotic things that you can do when you're wealthy is pay your mother****** taxes.

富裕之後，最愛國的事情之一就是繳納母****** 稅。

Whether it's hardballing investors on Shark Tank.

無論是在 "鯊魚坦克 "節目中與投資者硬碰硬。

You can't be that stupid, Robert, to even think there's any law in the world.

羅伯特，你不會那麼蠢吧 居然認為世界上還有法律存在

Lashing out at basketball refs on the court.

在球場上抨擊籃球裁判。

Or dunking on anti-diversity, equity and inclusion cranks on social media.

或者在社交媒體上灌輸反多樣性、公平和包容的歪理邪說。

Mark Cuban lives for combat.

馬克-庫班為戰鬥而生。

It seems to make him happy.

這似乎讓他很開心。

Like, genuinely happy.

就像，真正的快樂。

The latest target of his good-natured wrath is the American healthcare system, which he's aiming to disrupt with his latest venture, Cost Plus Drugs.

他善意憤怒的最新目標是美國的醫療保健系統，他的最新企業 Cost Plus Drugs 就是要顛覆美國的醫療保健系統。

So I got a cold email from Dr. Alex Oshmayansky, who wanted to build a compounding pharmacy in Denver to make generic drugs that were in short supply.

於是，我收到了亞歷克斯-奧什馬延斯基博士的一封冷冰冰的電子郵件，他想在丹佛建立一家複合藥房，生產供不應求的仿製藥。

And it was right around the time that Martin Shkreli was getting ready to go to jail.

就在馬丁-史克利準備入獄的時候。

And so I had been reading about that.

所以我一直在讀這方面的書。

And it was apparent to me that if he was able to raise the price of Daraprim, this was not an efficient market.

很明顯，如果他能提高達拉匹林的價格，這就不是一個有效的市場。

So the question was, why?

那麼問題來了，為什麼？

And so working with Alex and talking to Alex, the key element that was missing in the industry is transparency.

是以，在與亞歷克斯的合作和交談中，我發現這個行業缺少的關鍵因素就是透明度。

It was and is dominated by three big pharmacy benefit managers.

過去和現在都由三大藥房福利管理公司主導。

And they set pricing despite their claims otherwise.

而且，儘管他們不這麼說，但他們還是制定了定價。

And so we felt like if we could create a company that was completely transparent and show our costs, etc., that it would start to bring back the one thing that was missing in the healthcare system, which was trust.

是以，我們認為，如果我們能創建一家完全透明的公司，並展示我們的成本等，就能重新喚回醫療系統中缺失的信任。

So we started costplusdrugs.com.

是以，我們創辦了 costplusdrugs.com。

And if you go to the website, you put in the name of the medication, we'll show you our actual cost.

如果您登錄網站，輸入藥物名稱，我們就會向您顯示實際成本。

Our 15% markup.

我們加價 15%。

And if you want it delivered via mail order, it's $5 to the pharmacist, $5 for shipping.

如果您想通過郵購送貨，藥劑師收取 5 美元，運費 5 美元。

And the prices are just dramatically cheaper.

而且價格也便宜得多。

So do you feel like it's a failure of government that you have to be doing this?

那麼，你是否覺得你必須這樣做是政府的失敗？

No, no, definitely not a failure of government.

不，不，絕對不是政府的失敗。

It's, well, I take that back.

好吧，我收回那句話。

It's not a failure of government from a legislative perspective.

從立法角度看，這不是政府的失敗。

It's a failure of government in that by choosing to allow companies that the PBMs that they work with for Medicare Part D or Medicare Advantage, then they're reinforcing the fact that there's no transparency because of the contracts that they've signed with them have no transparency, right, for the most part.

這是政府的失職，因為政府選擇允許那些與他們合作的醫療保險 D 部分或醫療保險 Advantage 的 PBM 公司，那麼他們就在強化一個事實，那就是沒有透明度，因為他們與他們簽訂的合同沒有透明度，對吧，在大多數情況下是這樣。

And then it's a bigger failure on the part of all the companies that self-insure, particularly the big companies.

而所有自我保險的公司，尤其是大公司，則是更大的失敗。

If you're a CEO of a big company, medium-sized company, your company, right, your core competency is not worrying about health care costs, right?

如果你是一家大公司、中型公司的首席執行官，你的公司，對吧，你的核心競爭力不是擔心醫療成本，對嗎？

You work with an employee consultant or whatever it may be, and you just think they're doing their job.

你與僱員顧問或其他什麼人合作，你只是認為他們在做他們的工作。

But the reality is health care costs have become your second largest line item right after payroll.

但現實情況是，醫療費用已成為僅次於工資的第二大開支項目。

So when you ask why are we, where are we at?

所以，當你問我們為什麼，我們在哪裡？

It's not because we should have legislated against them.

這並不是因為我們應該立法禁止他們。

It's because the government should say, OK, if you're going to be part of Medicare, you have to be transparent to us in your actual costs.

這是因為政府應該說，好吧，如果你們要加入醫療保險，你們的實際成本就必須對我們透明。

You have to be transparent to us in your markups.

你們的加價必須對我們透明。

You have to be transparent in your prices.

價格必須透明。

And we're going to publish all those things.

我們將公佈所有這些內容。

And if you try to game it by using offshore companies to do, you know, rebates, then we're not going to work with you.

如果你試圖利用海外公司來做遊戲，你知道，回扣，那麼我們不會與你合作。

Right.

對

It's got to be straight net pricing.

必須是直接淨定價。

If the government did that with Medicare and Medicare Advantage and those partnerships, it'd be a whole different game.

如果政府在醫療保險和醫療保險優勢項目以及這些合作項目上也這樣做，那將是一場完全不同的遊戲。

Are the pharmaceutical companies too powerful?

製藥公司是否過於強大？

Are you talking about the manufacturers or the PBMs or?

你說的是製造商還是 PBM？

The PBMs, yes, because now they're vertically integrated and becoming more so.

PBMs 是的，因為它們現在是垂直整合，而且越來越垂直。

And so we hear a lot of talk about regulatory capture, but it's scale capture where they basically...

是以，我們聽到了很多關於監管俘獲的說法，但這是規模俘獲，他們基本上......

Can you explain that?

你能解釋一下嗎？

A scale capture is where they go into a company and they say, we're so big, if you don't do work with us, you're not going to be able to get all the services and prices and everything.

規模捕獲是指他們進入一家公司，然後說，我們規模很大，如果你不與我們合作，你將無法獲得所有的服務、價格和一切。

And we're not going to share with you what we're doing with everybody else, but we're the biggest.

我們不會和你們分享我們和其他人在做什麼，但我們是最大的。

So you must know that we're good.

所以你一定知道我們很好。

No one ever got in trouble for doing business with IBM.

從來沒有人因為和 IBM 做生意而惹上麻煩。

Right.

對

That type of concept.

就是這種概念。

And it's just been a disaster.

這簡直就是一場災難。

And, you know, we hear story after story about people who can't afford their healthcare, can't afford their medications, and it doesn't have to be that way.

你知道，我們聽到了一個又一個關於人們負擔不起醫療費用、負擔不起藥物費用的故事，但事實並非如此。

And I really, truly believe that there's a straight line from where we are today to completely fixing healthcare in the United States, if we can get, in particular, big companies to become transparent in their negotiations and to publish what they do.

我真的真的相信，如果我們能讓大公司在談判中變得透明，並公佈他們的所作所為，那麼從我們今天所處的位置到徹底解決美國的醫療問題是一條直線。

It's not that hard.

這並不難。

So what needs to change?

那麼，需要改變什麼呢？

If for the Medicare Advantage program, they just don't, they don't approve anybody for Medicare Advantage that works with the big three PBMs, right?

如果是 "醫療保險優勢計劃"，他們就不會準許任何與三大 PBM 合作的人参加 "醫療保險優勢計劃"，對嗎？

They, the big companies, they stop working with the big three PBMs and publish their contracts.

這些大公司停止了與三大 PBM 的合作，並公佈了他們的合同。

That happens.

這種情況時有發生。

We're looking at the United States of America as the shining light of a healthcare system.

我們將美國視為醫療保健系統的璀璨明珠。

While Cuban often points to the market failures of America's healthcare system, he still has a strong faith that markets and entrepreneurs will point the way towards solutions to many of society's problems.

雖然庫班經常指出美國醫療保健系統的市場失靈，但他仍然堅信，市場和企業家將為解決許多社會問題指明方向。

So obviously, at some point, we were going to talk about Ayn Rand.

所以，很明顯，在某些時候，我們會談論艾恩-蘭德。

You used to be a bit more of a libertarian.

你以前是個自由主義者。

I still am, but there's times when you adjust, right?

我現在依然如此，但有時你也會調整，對嗎？

I'm not hardcore Ayn Rand anymore, right?

我不再是艾恩-蘭德的鐵桿粉絲了，對嗎？

Because just reality sets in and I'm more about- I really like her writing.

因為現實就是這樣，我更喜歡她的文字。

Oh, I loved her.

我愛她

Really?

真的嗎？

Loved her.

愛她

You loved Atlas Shrugged or The Fountainhead?

你喜歡《阿特拉斯聳聳肩》還是《泉源》？

The Fountainhead especially.

尤其是《泉源》。

Yeah, more than Atlas.

是的，比阿特拉斯還多。

Oh my God.

我的天啊

Howard Roark was like- When I was like 13, I read it.

《霍華德・洛克》 我13歲時就讀過了

It was like Time Magazine had like 100 books you have to read before you die.

就好像《時代週刊》上有 100 本你死前必須讀完的書一樣。

And I was obsessed with Optima every moment, trying to learn stuff.

我每時每刻都沉迷於 Optima，努力學習知識。

So I tried, I had no idea who Ayn Rand was and I'd never heard of her.

於是我試了一下，我不知道誰是艾恩-蘭德，也沒聽說過她。

And I read Atlas Shrugged and I had, I thought it was just a book about trains, you know?

我讀了 "阿特拉斯聳聳肩"，我以為這只是一本關於火車的書，你知道嗎？

I had no idea what it was.

我不知道那是什麼。

But see, I always had an entrepreneurial spirit.

但是，我一直都有創業精神。

And so as a kid wanting to be an entrepreneur, Howard Roark standing up to everybody and anybody and speaking to power and not caring, I tried to, you know, part of that is still in me every single day, right?

是以，作為一個想成為企業家的孩子，霍華德-羅克（Howard Roark）敢於面對所有人和任何人，敢於向權力發聲，而且毫不在意，我試著這樣做，你知道，這種精神的一部分每天都在我的心中，對嗎？

Our conversations, you can see that come through.

在我們的談話中，你可以看到這一點。

Right now, the who is John Galt and the government is going to destroy everything?

現在，誰是約翰-蓋爾，政府要摧毀一切？

No, that's not me, right?

不，那不是我，對嗎？

I'm not saying it's my political mantra, not by a long shot.

我並不是說這是我的政治口頭禪，遠遠不是。

Right.

對

But I would read Fountainhead over and over and over again, right?

但我會一遍又一遍地讀《泉源》，對嗎？

And I had to stop reading it because I would get too jazzed up.

我不得不停止閱讀，因為我太興奮了。

And it wasn't about LS2E and who's bad and who's good, right?

這不是關於 LS2E 和誰壞誰好的問題，對嗎？

It was just Howard Roark, just these were his principles.

這就是霍華德-洛克，這就是他的原則。

He busted his ass.

他拼盡了全力。

He didn't care what anybody else thought about him.

他不在乎別人怎麼看他。

You could agree with him.

你可以同意他的觀點。

You could disagree.

你可以不同意。

He didn't care, right?

他不在乎，對嗎？

Now I'm not trying to make myself Howard Roark, right?

我不是想把自己變成霍華德-羅克吧？

But I don't care, right?

但我不在乎，對吧？

You could agree with me.

你可以同意我的觀點。

You could disagree with me.

你可以不同意我的觀點。

There's nothing about what any of them say that impacts my life so far, you know, one way or the other.

到目前為止，他們所說的一切都不會影響我的生活。

But I'm gonna be motivated to do what I think is right.

但我會有動力去做我認為正確的事。

To me, that was a huge positive.

對我來說，這是一個巨大的積極因素。

What's your relationship with that type of celebrity, right?

你和這類名人是什麼關係？

You did Shark Tank for how many seasons?

你做了幾季 "鯊魚坦克"？

15. Do you like being a kind of, you're getting mobbed on the way in here.

15. 你喜歡在來這裡的路上被人圍觀嗎？

Do you like being a kind of?

你喜歡做這樣的人嗎？

I know what I'm getting into when I go somewhere, right?

我知道我去什麼地方會遇到什麼，對嗎？

Right.

對

And so it's not a bad thing.

是以，這並不是一件壞事。

It just is what it is.

事實就是如此。

Yeah.

是啊

I mean, it's fun, you know, because it allows me to connect to anybody, anywhere.

我的意思是，這很有趣，你知道，因為它能讓我與任何人、任何地方建立聯繫。

I can walk into any room and somebody, 90% of the time, they're gonna know me, right?

我可以走進任何一個房間，90% 的情況下，他們會認識我，對嗎？

Maybe not by sight, but know of me.

也許看不見，但知道我。

And I can have a conversation talking about anything.

我還能談天說地，無所不談。

So it opens the door for people who I might not otherwise get to meet, right?

是以，這為我打開了一扇門，讓我認識了那些我可能無法認識的人，對嗎？

Or get to talk to, which is a great thing.

或與之交談，這是一件大好事。

But overall, yeah, it's been a positive except for just social media, right?

但總的來說，除了社交媒體之外，其他方面都是積極的，對嗎？

Just because all the hate that's inevitable on social media, that gets annoying.

社交媒體上不可避免的仇恨會讓人厭煩。

Can you like hire someone to like, filter through that for you?

你能僱人幫你過濾一下嗎？

No, what good is that?

不，那有什麼用？

Why would I do that?

我為什麼要這麼做？

I don't know.

我不知道。

I mean, if I were you, I would not spend like two seconds on social media.

我是說，如果我是你，就不會在社交媒體上花兩秒鐘。

No, but I want to learn, right?

沒有，但我想學，對嗎？

I want to learn.

我想學習。

What are you learning on social media?

您在社交媒體上學到了什麼？

Well, there's the bull****.

這就是公牛****。

It's just like, if I'm talking about cost plus drugs.

就像我說的成本加藥品一樣。

Yeah.

是啊

Right?

對不對？

And I'm hearing from different patients, or there were times when they were like, can you get this drug?

我從不同的病人那裡聽說，他們有時會問，你能弄到這種藥嗎？

Yeah.

是啊

And we look and we can get this drug.

我們一看，就能買到這種藥。

So then I'm responding back saying, okay, yeah, we'll get it.

然後我就回復說，好的，好的，我們會搞定的。

And we help this person.

我們幫助這個人。

Or there's times like when talking about DEI, where there'll be somebody who says, okay, here's why I disagree.

有時，就像在討論 DEI 時，會有人說，好吧，這就是我不同意的原因。

And I'm like, okay, that's a good point.

我想，好吧，說得好。

So once you take out, you know, there's signal and there's noise.

是以，一旦剔除，就會有信號和噪音。

And if you get rid of the noise, and you're willing to realize that Twitter's not real life, or threads for that matter, right?

如果你摒棄雜音，願意認識到推特不是現實生活，也不是線程，對嗎？

Any opportunity I have to learn something is a good day.

任何能讓我學到東西的機會都是美好的一天。

Right?

對不對？

Anything that I picked up that is N plus one versus where I was before, that's amazing, right?

只要我撿到的東西比我之前撿到的東西多 N 倍，那就很了不起了，對嗎？

I credit most of my success to being good at reverse engineering.

我的成功主要歸功於善於逆向工程。

The internet is crawling with starry-eyed optimists trying to reverse engineer wealth by mimicking the mindset of billionaires.

互聯網上充斥著滿懷希望的樂觀主義者，他們試圖通過模仿億萬富翁的思維方式來逆向創造財富。

You want to make a million bucks a year?

你想年薪百萬嗎？

You gotta do this.

你必須這麼做

But even though I'm the opposite of a hustler in every way imaginable, I am still fascinated by what goes on in Mark Cuban's head.

儘管我在各方面都與 "老千 "截然相反，但我仍然對馬克-庫班腦子裡的想法著迷。

Your brother said something about you once in like the early 2000s that he doesn't even think it's about the money.

你哥哥說過你的一些事，好像是在 2000 年初，他甚至不認為你是為了錢。

He thinks it's just about the competition for you.

他認為這只是你的競爭。

He's right there.

他就在那兒。

And you've said something to the effect of you wake up every day thinking about the competition.

你曾說過，你每天醒來都在考慮競爭對手。

Why?

為什麼？

I'm just competitive.

我就是爭強好勝。

Why?

為什麼？

You know, that's who I am.

你知道，我就是這樣的人。

You know, I've played sports my entire life.

你知道，我一輩子都在運動。

I still go out there and play pickup.

我還是會出去打球。

And if I miss a shot, I get mad.

如果我投籃不中，我就會生氣。

I'm just competitive.

我就是爭強好勝。

I won't play golf, you know, because I'm so competitive.

我不會打高爾夫，你知道，因為我太好勝了。

I don't have the time to put into it.

我沒有時間投入其中。

I've golfed once in my entire life, other than putt-putt and top golf type things, literally once in my life.

我這輩子打過一次高爾夫球，除了putt-putt 和頂級高爾夫球之外，就真的打過一次。

And it was with a customer in 1989.

而且是 1989 年的一位客戶。

And I was with my club, bam, you know, when I missed a shot or whatever.

我和我的球杆在一起，"砰 "的一聲，你知道，當我投籃不中或其他什麼的時候。

I'm like, I can't do it because I can't get good at it.

我想，我做不到，因為我做不好。