Today we have a very special guest with us, Legislator Zhang Wan'an.

今天，我們請到了一位非常特別的嘉賓--立法委員張萬安。

Hello Eric, hello everyone.

你好，埃裡克，大家好。

So Legislator Zhang received his LLB from National Tianjin University and his JD from

張議員擁有國立天津大學法學學士學位和天津大學法學博士學位。

Penn Law.

賓夕法尼亞大學法學院。

After his graduation, he joined the Palo Alto-based Wilson, Sassini, Goodrich, and Rosati.

畢業後，他加入了總部位於帕洛阿爾託的 Wilson, Sassini, Goodrich, and Rosati 公司。

One of the top law firms in California specializing in business, securities, and intellectual property law.

加州頂級律師事務所之一，專門從事商業、證券和知識產權法律業務。

He worked with clients from all over Silicon Valley, including Google, Apple, and Tesla.

他的客戶遍佈硅谷，包括谷歌、蘋果和特斯拉。

After practicing for several years, you founded your own law firm and you returned to Taiwan in 2013.

在執業數年後，您創辦了自己的律師事務所，並於 2013 年回到臺灣。

Today, Legislator Zhang is the Legislator of the 3rd Electoral District of Taipei City.

如今，張立法委員是臺北市第三選區的立法委員。

Thank you for coming to our program.

感謝您參加我們的活動。

Thank you.

謝謝。

It's my great pleasure.

這是我的榮幸。

Thanks for the brief introduction of myself.

感謝您對我的簡單介紹。

Thank you so much.

非常感謝。

No problem.

沒問題。

It's definitely our pleasure.

這絕對是我們的榮幸。

As a legislator, social issues in Taiwan are of the greatest concern to you.

作為立法委員，您最關心的是臺灣的社會問題。

So today we would like to discuss one particular social issue known as brain drain.

是以，今天我們要討論一個特殊的社會問題，即人才外流問題。

Can you, for the sake of our viewers, briefly give us an overview of what brain drain is and the problems that it might cause?

您能否為我們的觀眾簡要介紹一下什麼是人才外流以及人才外流可能導致的問題？

Okay.

好的

So brain drain is basically the term describing the situation in which a country is losing its human capital.

是以，人才流失基本上是描述一個國家人力資本流失情況的術語。

So simply speaking, a country is being drained of the brain power.

是以，簡單地說，一個國家的腦力正在被耗盡。

So it is quite a serious problem now pretty much every country is facing right now.

是以，這是一個相當嚴重的問題，幾乎每個國家現在都面臨著這個問題。

So it is popularized by media, so brain drain.

是以，它被媒體普及，所以人才外流。

Now Taiwan is also facing this problem too.

現在臺灣也面臨這個問題。

And I know many of the young generation, they are willing to work abroad right now because of the low salary in Taiwan.

我知道很多年輕一代現在都願意到國外工作，因為臺灣的工資太低了。

So they want to seek a more highly high position like they can be paid well abroad in other countries.

是以，他們希望尋求更高的職位，比如在其他國家可以獲得高薪。

In your opinion, what are some major factors contributing to brain drain in any society?

您認為造成任何社會人才外流的主要因素有哪些？

Right.

對

I think first, the low salary, and second, poor investment environment in Taiwan for foreign companies, and third, the long working hours in Taiwan.

我認為首先是工資低，其次是外資企業在臺灣的投資環境差，第三是臺灣的工作時間長。

Definitely.

當然。

Yeah.

是啊

I think that's a working culture in most Asian countries.

我想這是大多數亞洲國家的工作文化。

Not only Taiwan, but also South Korea, Japan, and Singapore.

不僅是臺灣，韓國、日本和新加坡也是如此。

How many hours a day do you work?

您每天工作多少小時？

I'm quite exceptional.

我很特別。

I mean, my working hour per day average is about like 10, 12 hours.

我的意思是，我每天的平均工作時間大約是 10 到 12 個小時。

10, 12 hours?

10、12 個小時？

Yeah.

是啊

Oh my goodness.

我的天啊

Yeah.

是啊

I remember the days I used to work about 10 hours a day, 10 to 12 hours a day.

我記得我曾經每天工作 10 個小時左右，一天 10 到 12 個小時。

Well, it's very different.

嗯，這很不一樣。

But I can tell you when I was a lawyer in Silicon Valley, it was also long hours.

但我可以告訴你，我在硅谷當律師時，工作時間也很長。

Oh, long hours.

哦，時間太長了。

Long hours.

工作時間長

Yeah.

是啊

Especially working in a huge firm, a huge law firm.

尤其是在一家大型律師事務所工作。

Lots of pressure, and especially when you are working on a deal, a merger position or an IPO.

壓力很大，尤其是當你在處理交易、兼併職位或首次公開募股時。

So you will work for about more than 16 to 20 hours a day.

是以，您每天的工作時間將超過 16 到 20 個小時。

And for example, I remember when I was working on a merger deal, I brought my sleeping bag to the office.

例如，我記得在處理一樁併購交易時，我把睡袋帶到了辦公室。

Oh, I see.

哦，我明白了。

Yeah.

是啊

You'll just probably have to sleep in the office for a couple weeks.

你可能得在辦公室裡睡上幾個星期。

It's pretty normal.

這很正常。

So given your answer, would you say that brain drain only exists in specific industries?

那麼，根據您的回答，您是否認為人才外流只存在於特定行業？

Because of the low salary in Taiwan or in other countries.

因為臺灣或其他國家的工資很低。

The young generation, they will seek greater job opportunities abroad in other countries.

年輕一代將到其他國家尋求更多的就業機會。

So especially when they have a very well-trained education, they are skilled or professional, they'll try to find better future job prospects, especially if it's overseas.

是以，特別是當他們受過非常良好的教育，他們是技術人員或專業人員時，他們會努力尋找未來更好的工作前景，特別是在海外。

And also, if you are a high manager, you want to get paid well or you want to manage a team, probably some big or international companies, especially based in Singapore or in the US, you'll have a better chance to become a manager or you can have a better view in the future.

此外，如果你是一名高級經理，你想獲得高薪或管理一個團隊，可能在一些大公司或國際公司，特別是總部設在新加坡或美國的公司，你會有更好的機會成為經理，或在未來有更好的發展前景。

I think there's also the problem of the limited number of industries and domains in a specific region.

我認為還有一個問題是，特定地區的行業和領域數量有限。

I remember meeting a student and he went to the US because he was a choir director.

我記得我見過一個學生，他去美國是因為他是合唱團指揮。

And he said there's no room for growth in his native country.

他說，他的祖國沒有發展空間。

He has to go to the US to find his domain.

他必須去美國尋找自己的領地。

So I think that's definitely an issue.

是以，我認為這絕對是一個問題。

But given the complexity of these issues, what do you think would be some effective ways to address these problems?

但是，考慮到這些問題的複雜性，您認為解決這些問題的有效方法是什麼？

Well, first of all, I think, for example, I always like to take Singapore as an example.

首先，我認為，舉例來說，我總是喜歡以新加坡為例。

I've been to Singapore several times and I found there are many Taiwanese people working in Singapore, especially the young generation.

我去過新加坡好幾次，發現有很多臺灣人在新加坡工作，尤其是年輕一代。

Well, first, they pay well and it's very international.

首先，他們的薪水很高，而且非常國際化。

They are a bilingual country.

他們是一個雙語國家。

And also, they are very open and transparent of their legal systems, all the procedures.

此外，他們的法律制度和所有程序都非常公開透明。

And they provide tax incentives to attract international companies and enterprises to set up headquarters or branch offices in Singapore.

它們還提供稅收優惠，吸引國際公司和企業在新加坡設立總部或分支機構。

So they can create a very friendly investment environment.

是以，他們可以創造一個非常友好的投資環境。

And that is something Taiwan really needs.

而這正是臺灣真正需要的。

So they can attract a lot of young talents or experienced seniors to Singapore.

是以，他們可以吸引很多年輕人才或經驗豐富的前輩來到新加坡。

So they become a very globalized, internationalized country.

是以，他們成為了一個非常全球化、國際化的國家。

So given what we discussed, what do you think the government can do to create this kind of welcoming environment for investors and global talents?

那麼，鑑於我們所討論的內容，您認為政府可以做些什麼來為投資者和全球人才創造這種歡迎的環境？

I think the government can make some rules and policies to attract talents from other countries.

我認為政府可以制定一些規則和政策來吸引其他國家的人才。

Do you mean like legislation?

你是指立法嗎？

Yes, legislation.

是的，立法。

For example, tax incentives, which can attract international companies and enterprises to set up headquarters or branch offices in the country.

例如，稅收優惠可以吸引國際公司和企業在該國設立總部或分支機構。

Or like visa privileges, for example, to provide visas to entrepreneurs or startups for them to come to set up the companies or offices in the country in return of three or five years stay in the country, or even give you the permanent residency afterwards.

例如，為創業者或初創企業提供簽證，讓他們在該國設立公司或辦事處，以換取在該國逗留 3 年或 5 年的時間，甚至在之後給你永久居留權。

So for example, maybe three years ago, I remember I read the news that Japan, because they want to attract more talents or startups to come to Japan.

舉個例子，也許在三年前，我記得我讀到過這樣一則新聞：日本希望吸引更多的人才或初創企業來到日本。

So they have the so-called, the fastest review process of the visa to grant the permanent residency to foreigners so that they can come to set up their startups in Japan.

是以，他們有所謂的最快的簽證審查程序，以授予外國人永久居留權，這樣他們就可以來日本建立他們的初創企業。

So I think those are the standards and policies that we can learn to stay, to have our talent stay in Taiwan.

是以，我認為我們可以學習這些標準和政策，讓人才留在臺灣。

So that's something we can learn.

所以，這是我們可以學習的。

Okay, thank you.

好的，謝謝。

So I think we talked a lot about what the government can do.

是以，我認為我們就政府能做什麼談了很多。

But let's focus on perhaps the positive aspects of scale migration.

不過，讓我們把注意力集中在規模遷移的積極方面吧。

There's some evidence that scale migration can be beneficial.

有證據表明，規模遷移是有益的。

Do you think brain drain or scale migration is necessarily bad for a country?

您認為人才外流或大規模移民一定會對一個國家不利嗎？

It depends.

這要看情況。

And I don't think it's bad for a country.

我不認為這對一個國家是壞事。

For example, I believe if you can reverse the situation from brain drain to brain gain, so that we can make our young generation to go abroad, to learn something new from other countries.

例如，我認為如果能扭轉人才外流的局面，讓我們的年輕一代走出國門，從其他國家學習新的東西。

And then they come back so they can bring back their new knowledge, skills, expertise to Taiwan.

然後，他們再回來，把新的知識、技能和專長帶回臺灣。

I remember there used to be like a huge drive to study abroad in the 80s and 90s when we grew up.

我記得在我們成長的上世紀八九十年代，出國留學的熱潮曾一度盛行。

Right.

對

I just feel that there are fewer and fewer students willing to do this nowadays.

我只是覺得，現在願意這樣做的學生越來越少了。

I believe the main reason is the financial problem.

我認為主要原因是財政問題。

It's really hard for an average family to support a student or your kid to study abroad because it will cost a lot.

對於一個普通家庭來說，供養一個學生或您的孩子出國留學真的很難，因為這需要花費很多。

So it kind of goes back to the low salary issue that we've been discussing.

這又回到了我們一直在討論的低工資問題。

Because that seems to affect everything, I think.

因為我覺得這似乎會影響一切。

Yeah, so I think it's really hard to solve.

是啊，所以我覺得這個問題真的很難解決。

It's not just like in Taiwan we raise the minimum wage each year.

這並不像在臺灣，我們每年都會提高最低工資。

It won't solve the problem.

這解決不了問題。

I think we have to think deeply to change the overall working conditions and to create a friendly investment environment to attract international companies to Taiwan so that there's competition so that we can raise the salary.

我認為我們必須深入思考，改變整體工作條件，創造友好的投資環境，吸引國際公司來臺，這樣才會有競爭，從而提高薪酬。

Those big companies, they try to get talent, so they have to compete to establish the offer to the young people.

那些大公司都想招攬人才，是以必須通過競爭來為年輕人創造機會。

That sounds like you have a lot of work ahead of you, lots of legislation, and I think you're going to go back to your 10-hour work.

聽起來你有很多工作要做，有很多立法工作要做，我想你又要回到 10 小時工作制了。

I know, and I have my sleeping bag.

我知道，我有睡袋。

So thank you for that analysis.

謝謝你的分析。

I think I have one final question for you and it's for our viewers.

我想我還有最後一個問題要問你，也是問我們的觀眾。

What do you think we can do, knowing that there's high tuition costs and lots of living expenses, but we still want to study abroad?

明知學費和生活費很高，但我們還是想出國留學，您覺得我們該怎麼辦？

What can students do to address this problem?

學生可以做些什麼來解決這個問題？

This question reminds me of the CEO of Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg, just mentioned recently, saying that because of the coronavirus pandemic, he predicts more than 50% of his company's employees will be working remotely in the next 5 or 10 years.

這個問題讓我想起了 Facebook 首席執行官馬克-扎克伯格（Mark Zuckerberg）最近剛剛提到的，由於冠狀病毒的流行，他預測在未來 5 年或 10 年內，公司 50%以上的員工將從事遠程工作。

So this could be good news for the younger generation in Taiwan.

是以，這對臺灣的年輕一代來說可能是個好消息。

So I would say for young students or students in college or universities in Taiwan, just get well-prepared so that if you have such skills, you may have the opportunities working for those huge tech companies in the States, but you're still staying in Taiwan.

是以，我想對臺灣的年輕學生或大專院校學生說，做好充分準備，如果你有這樣的技能，你可能有機會在美國那些大型科技公司工作，但你仍然會留在臺灣。

So essentially they can study in Taiwan, but they can study by using these online resources.

是以，他們基本上可以在臺灣學習，但可以利用這些在線資源學習。

Right, exactly.

沒錯，就是這樣。

And they can even connect with these Fortune 500 companies and contribute, not only to the companies, but also to Taiwan as well.

他們甚至可以與這些世界 500 強企業建立聯繫，不僅為企業，也為臺灣做出貢獻。

Exactly, yes.

沒錯，是的。

So, for example, I would say for young students, interdisciplinary.

是以，舉例來說，對於年輕學生，我會說跨學科。

Interdisciplinary.

跨學科。

Yes.

是的。

It's very important right now.

現在這一點非常重要。

It's a trend.

這是一種趨勢。

For example, if you're a law major, you may also want to study coding or design.

例如，如果您主修法律，您可能還想學習編碼或設計。

So just get yourself prepared so that you may have more chances to work in tech companies or financial industries and work for other international companies and you're still based in Taiwan.

是以，只要做好準備，你就有更多機會在科技公司或金融行業工作，為其他國際公司工作，而你仍然在臺灣工作。

And then you get experiences, get the knowledges and skills, then you can also change your track or working for Taiwanese tech companies, just get more experiences.

然後，你會獲得經驗、知識和技能，然後你也可以改變你的方向，或者為臺灣的科技公司工作，獲得更多的經驗。

So opportunities only come when you're prepared for them.

是以，只有做好準備，機會才會來臨。

So once again, thank you, Legislator Zhang, for coming to our show.

再次感謝張議員做客我們的節目。

Well, thank you, Eric.

謝謝你，埃裡克。

Thank you so much.

非常感謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Okay, that's it for today.

好了，今天到此為止。

We'll see you next time.

我們下次再見。

Bye-bye.

再見