Reports that Donald Trump has spoken with Vladimir Putin and he's agreed to start negotiations on ending the war quote immediately.

有報道稱，唐納德-特朗普已經與弗拉基米爾-普京談過，他同意立即就結束戰爭展開談判。

Cue accusations expectedly from the European Union leaders that this is an act of betrayal against Ukraine and our own Defence Secretary John Healey has said this morning there will be no talks about Ukraine without Ukraine.

今天上午，我們的國防部長約翰-希利（John Healey）表示，沒有烏克蘭，就不會有關於烏克蘭的談判。

Big moment.

重要時刻

I think this is one of the pivotal moments in the post-war history of Europe.

我認為這是戰後歐洲歷史上的關鍵時刻之一。

It is an extraordinary moment.

這是一個非同尋常的時刻。

I've spoken to past and former defence ministers and Americans and all that.

我曾與前任國防部長和美國人等交談過。

Everybody agrees this is a huge huge moment in our history.

每個人都認為這是我們歷史上一個巨大的時刻。

I mean we've been talking for several weeks really on the podcast about the position that Labour now find themselves in with with a Donald Trump presidency having to hedge its bets who to go with US or closer to Europe.

我的意思是，我們已經在播客上討論了好幾個星期，工黨現在的處境是，在唐納德-特朗普（Donald Trump）就任總統後，不得不對沖賭注，是選擇美國還是更接近歐洲。

I mean it really matters now doesn't it on this?

我的意思是，這真的很重要，不是嗎？

It matters particularly about this because this is the moment you can't really fudge much longer.

這一點尤為重要，因為此時此刻，你真的不能再推諉了。

If Donald Trump is determined to do a deal over the head of President Zelensky and Kiev and if as his Defence Secretary Pete Hegseth said yesterday there will be no American military support for Ukraine after a deal.

如果唐納德-特朗普執意要在澤連斯基總統和基輔的頭上達成協議，如果他的國防部長皮特-黑格塞斯（Pete Hegseth）昨天說過，達成協議後美國將不會向烏克蘭提供軍事支持。

It's all going to have to be done by Western European countries and if also at the same time effectively America is saying to Europe we are interested in China and the Far East we're no longer interested in you we are leaving goodbye.

這一切都必須由西歐國家來完成，如果同時美國還切實地對歐洲說，我們對中國和遠東感興趣，我們對你們不再感興趣，我們要走了，再見。

Then that is a very very dangerous moment for Britain as well as for other Western European countries whose troops are going to be there as a deterrence in rump Ukraine if this is imposed on Ukraine and by the way I think rump Ukraine will be a very politically turbulent place.

對英國和其他西歐國家來說，這將是一個非常危險的時刻，因為如果將這一措施強加於烏克蘭，那麼這些國家的軍隊將在後烏克蘭發揮威懾作用，順便說一句，我認為後烏克蘭將是一個政治動盪的地方。

Will Zelensky survive this?

澤倫斯基能挺過去嗎？

I just don't know.

我就是不知道。

So a turbulent dangerous place and we're going to be sending British troops British men British women into harm's way and at the moment they are not properly armed they are not properly prepared the British Army is far too small and this is all landing on the desks of the Treasury and the Prime Minister and people up and down Whitehall roundabout now.

是以，這是一個動盪危險的地方，我們將派遣英國軍隊、英國男人、英國女人進入險境，而目前他們沒有適當的武裝，沒有適當的準備，英國軍隊規模太小，而這一切現在都落在了財政部、首相和白廳上上下下的人的辦公桌上。

That's the strategic defence review.

這就是戰略防禦審查。

What are we going to do about defence?

我們該如何處理國防問題？

There is no money we have to find money we have to do something so it's a really really important moment.

沒有錢，我們就得找錢，我們就得做點什麼，所以這是一個非常非常重要的時刻。

I mean the NATO Chief Mark Rutte has been out this morning trying to encourage members to up their their contributions to somewhere towards that 5% that Donald Trump's asking for.

我的意思是，北約首領馬克-呂特（Mark Rutte）今天上午一直在努力鼓勵成員國增加捐款，以達到唐納德-特朗普要求的5%。

I mean we're nowhere near it but it's the signs that NATO is really fraying actually.

我的意思是，我們還遠未到那一步，但有跡象表明，北約實際上已經搖搖欲墜。

NATO is fraying and things are moving extraordinarily fast I mean only yesterday our own Secretary of State for Defence John Healey who is a good guy I think he was saying that we have to keep arming Ukraine so that we can force Vladimir Putin to the negotiating table.

我的意思是，就在昨天，我們自己的國防國務卿約翰-希利（John Healey）--我想他是個好人--還在說，我們必須繼續武裝烏克蘭，這樣才能迫使弗拉基米爾-普京坐到談判桌前。

Well Vladimir Putin doesn't need to be forced to the negotiating table he's ambling towards you the huge grin on his face and his friend Donald Trump's phone ringing inside his breast pocket.

弗拉基米爾-普京不需要被逼上談判桌，他正滿臉堆笑地向你走來，他的朋友唐納德-特朗普的電話正在他胸前的口袋裡響著。

Do you see any world in which this conflict is settled where Ukraine gets to keep all of its pre-invasion territory?

您認為衝突解決後，烏克蘭會保留入侵前的全部領土嗎？

No I think Ukraine had there were three things really that Ukraine has been wanting.

不，我認為烏克蘭有三樣東西是烏克蘭一直想要的。

The first obviously is a complete sovereign and free Ukraine including Crimea that is not going to happen.

首先顯然是一個包括克里米亞在內的擁有完整主權和自由的烏克蘭，但這是不可能實現的。

The second was well in that case at least a Ukraine which is most of current Ukraine inside NATO inside the United Nations.

第二，在這種情況下，至少要有一個烏克蘭，也就是目前北約在聯合國內的大部分烏克蘭。

Well after what Mr. Higgs said yesterday that is not going to happen it's completely off the table.

希格斯先生昨天說過，這是不可能的，完全不可能。

But the third thing is okay we don't get this we don't get that but at least let's have the rest of Ukraine, rump Ukraine protected under the American umbrella so that we can feel secure and now we know that's not going to happen either.

但第三件事是，好吧，我們不明白這一點，我們不明白那一點，但至少讓烏克蘭的其他地區、烏克蘭的殘餘部分在美國的保護傘下受到保護，這樣我們就能感到安全，但現在我們知道這也不會發生。