Thank you so much, Secretary Rubio, for being here.

魯比奧部長，非常感謝你的到來。

We just heard from President Zelensky.

我們剛剛聽到澤倫斯基總統的發言。

He said he does not think that he owes President Trump an apology for what happened inside the Oval Office today.

他說，他不認為自己欠特朗普總統為今天在橢圓形辦公室內發生的事情道歉。

Do you feel otherwise?

你有其他感覺嗎？

I do.

我是這麼想的。

I do, because you guys don't see.

我看到了，因為你們沒看到。

You guys only saw the end.

你們只看到了結尾。

You saw what happened today.

你也看到了今天發生的事情。

You don't see all the things that led up to this.

你沒有看到這一切的前因後果。

So let me explain.

讓我來解釋一下。

The president's been very clear.

總統的態度非常明確。

He campaigned on this.

他在競選時就是這樣說的。

He thinks this war should have never started.

他認為這場戰爭本不該打響。

He believes, and I agree, that had he been president, it never would have happened.

他認為，如果他是總統，這一切就不會發生，我也同意這一點。

Now here we are.

現在我們到了。

He's trying to bring an end to this conflict.

他試圖結束這場衝突。

We've explained very clearly what our plan is here, which is we want to get the Russians to a negotiating table.

我們已經非常清楚地解釋了我們在這裡的計劃，那就是我們希望讓俄羅斯人坐到談判桌前。

We want to explore whether peace is possible.

我們想要探索和平是否可能。

They understand this.

他們明白這一點。

They also understand that this agreement that was supposed to be signed today was supposed to be an agreement that binds America economically to Ukraine, which to me, as I've explained, and I think the president alluded to today, is a security guarantee in its own way, because we're involved.

他們也明白，今天本應簽署的這份協議本應是一份在經濟上約束美國與烏克蘭的協議，對我來說，正如我已經解釋過的，而且我認為總統今天也暗示過，這本身就是一種安全保障，因為我們參與其中了。

It's not us.

不是我們。

It's our interests.

這是我們的利益所在。

That was all explained.

一切都解釋清楚了。

That was all understood.

大家都明白了。

And nonetheless, for the last 10 days, in every engagement we've had with the Ukrainians, there's been complications in getting that point across, including the public statements that President Zelensky has made.

儘管如此，在過去的 10 天裡，在我們與烏克蘭人的每一次接觸中，在傳達這一觀點方面都出現了複雜的情況，包括澤連斯基總統發表的公開聲明。

But they insisted on coming to D.C.

但他們堅持要來華盛頓特區。

This agreement could have been signed five days ago, but they insisted on coming to Washington, and there was a very, and should have been a very clear understanding, don't come here and create a scenario where you're going to start lecturing us about how diplomacy isn't going to work.

這項協議本可以在五天前簽署，但他們堅持要到華盛頓來，而且當時有一個非常明確的共識，那就是不要到這裡來，不要製造一個你要開始教訓我們外交如何行不通的場景。

President Zelensky took it in that direction, and it ended in a predictable outcome as a It's unfortunate.

澤倫斯基總統把它引向了那個方向，結果是一個可以預料的結果。

That wasn't supposed to be this way, but that's the path he chose, and I think, frankly, sends his country backwards in regards to achieving peace, which is what President Trump wants at the end of the day, is for this war to end.

這本不應該是這樣的，但這就是他選擇的道路，坦率地說，我認為這讓他的國家在實現和平方面倒退了，而這正是特朗普總統最終想要的，那就是結束這場戰爭。

He's been as consistent as anyone can be about what his objective is here.

他對自己在這裡的目標始終如一。

But what specifically do you want to see President Zelensky apologize for?

但你具體希望澤倫斯基總統為什麼道歉？

Well, apologize for turning this thing into the fiasco for him that it became.

好吧，為把這件事變成他的慘敗而道歉。

There was no need for him to go in there and become antagonistic.

他沒有必要去那裡對立。

Look, this thing went off the rails.

聽著，這件事已經失控了。

You were there, I believe.

我相信你當時也在場。

It went off the rails when he said, let me ask you a question to the vice president.

當他說，讓我問副總統一個問題時，情況就失控了。

What kind of diplomacy are you talking about?

你說的是什麼外交？

Well, this is a serious thing.

這可是件大事。

I mean, thousands of people have been killed, thousands.

我的意思是，成千上萬的人被殺害，成千上萬。

And he talks about all these horrible things that have happened to prisoners of war and children, all true, all bad.

他講述了發生在戰俘和兒童身上的所有可怕的事情，都是真的，都很糟糕。

This is what we're dealing with here.

這就是我們正在處理的問題。

It needs to come to an end.

它必須結束。

We are trying to bring it to an end.

我們正在努力結束這種狀況。

The way you bring it to an end is you get Russia to the table to talk.

讓俄羅斯人坐到談判桌前談話，就是結束談判的辦法。

And he understands that attacking Putin, no matter how anyone may feel about him personally, forcing the president into a position where you're trying to goad him into attacking Putin, calling him names, maximalist demands about Russia having to pay for the reconstruction, all the sorts of things that you talk about in a negotiation.

他明白，攻擊普京，不管別人對他個人有什麼看法，迫使總統陷入一種境地，你試圖誘導他攻擊普京，罵他，提出俄羅斯必須支付重建費用的最高要求，所有這些都是你在談判中要談的。

Well, when you start talking about that aggressively, and the president's a dealmaker, he's made deals his entire life, you're not going to get people to the table.

當你開始咄咄逼人地談論這個問題時，而總統是個交易者，他一生都在做交易，你是不會讓人們坐到談判桌前的。

And so you start to perceive that maybe Zelensky doesn't want a peace deal.

所以你開始覺得澤倫斯基可能並不想達成和平協議。

He says he does, but maybe he doesn't.

他說他知道，但也許他不知道。

And that active, open undermining of efforts to bring about peace is deeply frustrating for everyone who's been involved in communications with them leading up to today.

這種積極、公開地破壞實現和平努力的行為，讓今天之前一直參與與他們溝通的每個人都深感沮喪。

And I think we should apologize for wasting our time for a meeting that was going to end the way it did.

我認為我們應該為浪費我們的時間而道歉，因為我們的會議將以這樣的方式結束。

You yourself have said previously that Putin cannot be trusted in negotiations.

你自己以前也說過，在談判中不能信任普京。

That was the point that President Zelensky was ultimately making during that conversation, is that there cannot be an agreement without security guarantees, because he was talking about all the ceasefire agreements before, or agreements that Putin has just blown past.

這就是澤連斯基總統在那次談話中最終要表達的觀點，即沒有安全保障就不可能達成協議，因為他說的是之前的所有停火協議，或者普京剛剛吹過的協議。

I mean, do you still feel that way, that Putin cannot be trusted in these negotiations?

我的意思是，你是否仍然認為普京在這些談判中不可信任？

Well, I was there yesterday when the president said in front of the media that our approach is going to be trust, but verify.

昨天，當總統在媒體面前說我們的方法是 "信任但核實 "時，我就在現場。

President Trump's made deals his entire life.

特朗普總統一生都在做交易。

He's not going to get suckered into some deal that's not a real deal.

他不會被騙去做什麼虛假的交易。

We all understand this.

我們都明白這一點。

We understand it on our end, for certain.

我們這邊肯定能理解。

And so the goal here is to get to a place where we have to explore whether peace is possible.

是以，這裡的目標是讓我們去探索和平是否可能。

I've said this repeatedly.

我已經說過很多次了。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I think it is, based on what they've said so far.

根據他們目前的說法，我認為是這樣的。

But we have to explore that.

但我們必須對此進行探索。

How else is this war going to end?

這場戰爭還能怎樣結束？

I ask people, what is the European plan to end this war?

我問大家，歐洲有什麼計劃來結束這場戰爭？

I can tell you what one foreign minister told me, and I'm not going to say who it was, but I can tell you what one of them told me, and that is that the war goes on for another year.

我可以告訴你一位外長告訴我的事，我不想說是誰，但我可以告訴你其中一位外長告訴我的事，那就是戰爭還要再打一年。

And at that point, Russia will feel so weakened that they'll beg for a peace.

到那時，俄羅斯就會覺得自己被嚴重削弱，從而乞求和平。

That's another year of killing, another year of dying, another year of destruction.

又是一年殺戮，又是一年死亡，又是一年毀滅。

And by the way, not a very realistic plan in my point of view.

順便說一句，在我看來，這並不是一個非常現實的計劃。

So if there's a chance of peace, even if it's a 1% chance, that needs to be explored.

是以，如果有和平的機會，哪怕只有 1%，也需要去探索。

And that's what President Trump is trying to do here.

這正是特朗普總統想要做的。

President Trump said just when he was leaving the White House after that meeting that he doesn't think President Zelensky wants peace.

特朗普總統在會談後離開白宮時說，他不認為澤倫斯基總統想要和平。

But isn't that why the Ukrainian leader was in the Oval Office for that meeting today?

但這不正是烏克蘭領導人今天在橢圓形辦公室參加會議的原因嗎？

Well, he was in the Oval Office to sign a minerals rights deal.

他在橢圓形辦公室簽署了一份礦產權利協議。

That's what he was in the Oval Office to sign today.

這就是他今天在橢圓形辦公室簽署的文件。

But again, when you have comments that deliberately appear to be deliberately, I mean, after having discussed this repeatedly, deliberately appear to be geared towards making the argument that peace is not possible.

但同樣，當你的評論故意表現出--我是說，在反覆討論過這個問題之後--故意表現出要提出和平是不可能的論點。

You know, again, I turn to the, he turns to the Vice President, what kind of diplomacy are you talking about?

我再次問副總統，你說的是什麼外交？

Almost as if to say, these people, you can't deal with them.

好像在說，這些人，你不能和他們打交道。

We can't, you can't have any negotiations with Putin because he can't be trusted and you're just wasting your time on negotiations.

我們不能，你們不能與普京進行任何談判，因為他不可信，你們只是在浪費時間進行談判。

Well, he's directly, basically undermining everything the president has told him he's trying to do.

他直接破壞了總統告訴他要做的一切。

Look, there's no need for that.

聽著，沒必要這樣。

You start to suspect, does he really want an end to this war?

你開始懷疑，他真的想結束這場戰爭嗎？

Does he just think that, you know, we have to do whatever he says and give him anything he wants without any end game?

他是否認為，他說什麼我們就得做什麼，他要什麼我們就給他什麼，而沒有任何最終目的？

That was the Biden strategy.

這就是拜登的策略。

That was the Biden strategy.

這就是拜登的策略。

We were funding a stalemate.

我們的資助陷入了僵局。

We were funding a meat grinder.

我們是在為絞肉機提供資金。

And unfortunately for the Ukrainians, the Russians have more meat to grind and they don't care about human life.

對烏克蘭人來說，不幸的是，俄羅斯人有更多的肉要磨，他們不在乎人命。

We've seen it, human waves and North Koreans, et cetera.

我們已經看到了，人浪和朝鮮人等等。

And so this is a very complex thing.

是以，這是一件非常複雜的事情。

It's very delicate.

它非常精緻。

It's very costly.

成本很高。

It's, it's very bloody.

這是，這是非常血腥的。

It needs to be brought to an end, but it isn't going to be brought to an end with public pronouncements and maximalist demands in the public.

我們需要結束這種狀況，但這並不是通過公開聲明和公眾的最高要求就能結束的。

But in real diplomacy, the vice president was right.

但在真正的外交中，副總統是對的。

When you say they don't care about life, you, are you talking about the Russians or the Ukrainians?

當你說他們不在乎生命時，你是在說俄羅斯人還是烏克蘭人？

Well, the Russians, I mean, they're conscripting by the hundreds of thousands.

俄國人徵召了數十萬人

They brought in North Korean troops that were slaughtered and cursed and they keep going because they got more people.

他們把被屠殺和詛咒的北韓軍隊帶進來，並繼續前進，因為他們得到了更多的人。

That's the other fact.

這是另一個事實。

Look, and it's, you know, again, we go back to the same point.

聽著，你知道，我們又回到了同一個問題上。

I'm not going to fall into this trap of the who's bad and who's evil.

我不會掉進誰是壞人誰是惡魔的陷阱。

People can make those conclusions.

人們可以做出這些結論。

People have seen how this narrative has played out and where we are today and how this all started and so forth.

人們已經看到了這一敘事的發展過程和我們今天的處境，以及這一切是如何開始的等等。

The point, the point now is it has to end.

關鍵是，現在的關鍵是必須結束。

And the way it ends is you get people to a negotiating table.

最後的結果是，你把人們帶到談判桌前。

And the president, who's the ultimate dealmaker, knows you don't get people to a negotiating table when you're calling them names and you're accusing them of things.

總統是最終的交易者，他知道，如果你罵人，指責別人，是無法讓別人坐到談判桌前的。

Because at the end of the day, this is not a political campaign.

因為說到底，這不是一場政治運動。

Okay.

好的

This is high stakes international diplomacy and an effort to bring about an end to a very, very dangerous war.

這是一場高風險的國際外交，也是結束一場非常、非常危險的戰爭的努力。

But you yourself, sir, have said before that that you believe Putin is a war criminal, that that is a widely accepted fact.

但你自己，先生，曾經說過，你認為普京是一名戰犯，這是一個被廣泛接受的事實。

You've called him a butcher.

你叫他屠夫

And you said that as a secretary of state, you do believe it's important for someone with such global global influence as you have to to speak with that kind of moral clarity.

你說，作為國務卿，你確實認為，像你這樣具有全球影響力的人，必須以這種道德清晰度說話。

Yeah.

是啊

And at this moment, as secretary of state, my job working for the president is to deliver peace, to end this conflict and end this war.

此時此刻，作為國務卿，我為總統工作的任務就是實現和平，結束這場衝突，結束這場戰爭。

Ultimately, that is the job of the State Department.

歸根結底，這是國務院的工作。

The State Department doesn't fight wars.

國務院不打仗。

It ends them.

它結束了它們。

It tries to end them.

它試圖結束它們。

And that's usually, by the way, celebrated.

順便說一句，這通常是值得慶祝的。

I mean, throughout history, I've watched presidents to bring about an end to wars and conflicts and people celebrate that.

我的意思是，縱觀歷史，我看到總統們結束了戰爭和衝突，人們為此歡呼。

They applaud it.

他們為之喝彩。

I think we should be very proud and happy that we have a president whose prime objective is not to get into wars, but to prevent wars and to get out of wars.

我認為，我們應該感到非常自豪和高興，因為我們有這樣一位總統，他的首要目標不是捲入戰爭，而是防止戰爭和擺脫戰爭。

That is a very noble, laudable goal.

這是一個非常崇高、值得稱讚的目標。

Everyone should be applauding it.

每個人都應該為它鼓掌。

And he should be given the space to do that, not undermined by demands that he called Putin names, or that we say things that impede the ability to conduct real diplomacy, as the vice president said today.

我們應該給他這樣做的空間，而不是像副總統今天所說的那樣，要求他罵普京，或者要求我們說一些妨礙開展真正外交的事情。

To follow up on what you just said a moment ago, are you saying that you have doubts that President Zelensky wants this war to come to an end?

接著剛才的話說，你是說你懷疑澤倫斯基總統希望結束這場戰爭？

What I have doubts about is whether he's willing to say and do the things that we need in order to get a negotiation.

我所懷疑的是，他是否願意說和做我們所需要的事情，以促成談判。

Again, you guys, this has been going on for 10 days.

再說一遍，這已經持續了 10 天了。

And you know, to see things in the press saying we're not coordinating with the Ukrainians, that's absolutely false.

要知道，媒體上說我們沒有與烏克蘭人協調，這絕對是錯誤的。

Over the last 10 days, the Ukrainians have met with the Secretary of Commerce, the Secretary of State, the Vice President of the United States, had a phone call with President Trump, and he was in the Oval Office today.

在過去的 10 天裡，烏克蘭人會見了美國商務部長、國務卿和副總統，並與特朗普總統通了電話，他今天還來到了橢圓形辦公室。

I've talked to the foreign minister of Ukraine three times in the last 10 days.

在過去 10 天裡，我與烏克蘭外交部長進行了三次交談。

The argument that we're not engaging, but yet you keep reading these press accounts about, oh, well, they're leaving us out, we're not involved, we're not engaged, none of these things are true, and it continues.

我們沒有參與，但你卻不斷讀到這些媒體報道：哦，好吧，他們把我們排除在外，我們沒有參與，我們沒有參與，這些都不是真的，而且還在繼續。

So all that led up to today and a deep sense of frustration.

是以，這一切導致了今天的結果和深深的挫敗感。

And my hope is that this all can be reset and maturity can kick in and some pragmatism, because this war tonight, people will die in Ukraine.

我希望這一切都能重啟，希望能變得成熟和務實，因為今晚的戰爭將導致烏克蘭人民死亡。

Tonight people will die in this conflict.

今晚，人們將死於這場衝突。

We're trying to bring an end to this conflict, which is unsustainable.

我們正在努力結束這場不可持續的衝突。

It's an unsustainable, bloody war that has to come to an end.

這是一場不可持續的血腥戰爭，必須結束。

And right now, the only leader in the world that can even have a chance of bringing about an end to this is named President Donald Trump.

而現在，世界上唯一有機會結束這種狀況的領導人就是唐納德-特朗普總統。

And we need to give him the opportunity to try and do that.

我們需要給他機會，讓他嘗試這樣做。

And when you see efforts to impede it, when you deliberate, when you tell someone, don't say, let's not talk about these things, let's not go in this direction, because it makes it harder for us to engage, and they insist on doing it anyways, you start to wonder.

當你看到有人在努力阻礙它，當你在斟酌，當你告訴別人，不要說，讓我們不要談論這些事情，讓我們不要朝這個方向走，因為這會讓我們更難參與，而他們卻堅持要這樣做時，你就會開始懷疑。

You start to wonder.

你開始懷疑

I don't like to impugn people's motives, but you start to wonder what's behind it.

我不喜歡指責別人的動機，但你會開始懷疑背後的原因。

So look, again, let's hope that this can be salvaged, but I'm not sure after today.

所以，還是那句話，希望這一切都能挽回，但今天之後我就不確定了。

You don't believe that this can be, you're not sure that this can be salvaged?

你不相信這一切可以挽回，你不確定這一切可以挽回？

I mean, can this relationship between Zelensky and Trump be repaired, in your view?

我的意思是，在你看來，澤倫斯基和特朗普之間的關係可以修復嗎？

I think anything is possible, but it has to go back to the point that President Trump is interested in being involved in this for the purposes of bringing about an enduring and lasting peace.

我認為一切皆有可能，但必須回到特朗普總統有興趣參與其中以實現持久和平這一點上來。

That's what he wants to achieve.

這就是他想要實現的目標。

And I think if I'm a country that's involved in a war with a bigger country, who's losing thousands of people, who's had three million people leave my country because they can't be there, who is facing these challenges, I would be thanking a president who's trying to help bring about an end to this war.

我認為，如果我的國家捲入了一場與更大國家的戰爭，失去了成千上萬的人，有三百萬人因為不能去那裡而離開了我的國家，面臨著這些挑戰，我會感謝一位努力幫助結束這場戰爭的總統。

I would be thanking him, and I would be supportive of what he's trying to do, at least in my public pronouncements and in my public posture.

我會感謝他，我會支持他所做的努力，至少在我的公開聲明和公開姿態中是這樣。

And we didn't see that today, and we haven't seen that for the last few days.

今天我們沒有看到這一點，過去幾天我們也沒有看到這一點。

Now, will that change?

現在，這種情況會改變嗎？

I hope so.

但願如此。

It should, for the purposes of global peace and stability in Europe and around the world.

為了歐洲和全世界的和平與穩定，它應該這樣做。