Name: 烏克蘭換委內瑞拉？Julia Ioffe 談論川普與普丁的「交換條件」傳聞！ (Ukraine For Venezuela? Julia Ioffe On Rumors Of A Trump-Putin Quid Pro Quo)
Uploaded: 2026-01-06T17:05:42.000Z
Duration: 5 min 10 s

My next guest is a Washington correspondent for Puck News and one of the country's leading Experts on Russia, U.S.

我的下一位來賓是 Puck News 的華盛頓特派記者，也是國內頂尖的俄美關係專家之一。

Please welcome back to the Late Show Julia Yaffe.

You understand the international stuff better than most people.

你對國際事務的瞭解比大多數人都深入。

The Trump administration arrested the president of Venezuela without giving a heads up to Congress and announced the US Will run the country.

川普政府逮捕了委內瑞拉總統，沒有事先通知國會，並宣佈美國將管理該國。

Have any of your sources offered clarity on what running the country means?

你的消息來源有沒有提供關於「管理國家」是什麼意思的清晰說明？

Well, he did notify the oil companies, so I think we're good.

嗯，他確實有通知石油公司，所以我想我們沒問題。

I mean, we would have to have like 100,000 troops on the ground there if there's anything like trying to run Iraq.

我的意思是，如果我們要嘗試管理伊拉克，我們就得在那裡部署十萬軍隊。

Well, I don't think that's what's happening, at least as of yet.

嗯，我認為至少目前還不是這樣。

It sounds like they're just going to threaten Delsey Rodriguez, who was Maduro's vice president and is now president, into doing what Trump wants, which seems to be, I mean, I'm guessing here, which seems to be allowing American oil companies back into Venezuela to supply delicious oil.

聽起來他們只是要威脅 Delsey Rodriguez，也就是馬杜羅的前副總統，現在是總統，讓她照川普的意思做，川普的意思，我猜啦，就是讓美國石油公司重返委內瑞拉，供應美味的石油。

Far be it from me to give any advice to the commander in chief.

我當然不敢給總司令任何建議。

But remember, you're there to extract freedom from.

但請記住，你們在那裡是為了榨取自由。

You're drilling for opportunity for all people there.

你們是在為那裡所有人民鑽取機會。

And when you install a puppet, don't say that she's your puppet.

而且你安插了傀儡，就別說她是你的傀儡。

And if she doesn't do what you're saying, we'll get a new puppet because people don't want to be ruled by puppets.

如果她不照你說的做，我們就換個新傀儡，因為人民不想被傀儡統治。

On behalf of the president, does any of that surprise you?

代表總統，這些有讓你感到驚訝嗎？

Look, I think this has been Trump's thing the whole time, right?

你看，我認為這一直都是川普的做法，對吧？

Which is that everybody does this, everybody lies, except me.

那就是每個人都這麼做，每個人都說謊，除了我。

And I think for some people around the world, it has been, this has been the modus operandi for the US all along.

我認為對世界上某些人來說，這一直都是美國的運作模式。

We've backed regime change and coups all over the world, in Iran, all over Latin America.

我們在伊朗、拉丁美洲各地都支持過政權更迭和政變。

But we say that it's for democracy and we go to spread democracy in Iraq in 2003 when everybody around the world is like, no, you're not, you're going for oil.

但我們說那是為了民主，然後我們在 2003 年去伊拉克推廣民主，當時全世界的人都說，不行，你們不是，你們是為了石油去的。

And now the American president says, no, we're not, we're going for oil.

而現在美國總統說，不，我們不是，我們是為了石油去的。

Just swish it around your mouth a little bit and it feels nice.

在嘴裡稍微涮一下，感覺很舒服。

Now, Fiona Hill, in her testimony before the Congress and the Trump impeachment, the first one, the og, she testified this is having to do with Ukraine.

現在，Fiona Hill 在國會的證詞中，以及在川普的彈劾案（第一個，原始的那個）中，她作證說這跟烏克蘭有關。

She testified that there was some sort of backroom deal floated from Putin to Trump, saying, hey, we'll kind of withdraw from Venezuela if you guys stop your support from Ukraine.

她作證說，普丁向川普提出了一項祕密協議，說「嘿，如果你們停止支持烏克蘭，我們就從委內瑞拉撤軍。」

And we're each regional zones of interest.

We're great powers with zones of interest.

It was just that the Russians were dropping very thick crumbs, very fat crumbs of hints for the Trump administration, saying, hey, this is in our backyard.

俄羅斯只是丟出非常豐厚、非常有份量的暗示給川普政府，說，嘿，這是我們的後院。

You care about Venezuela because it's in your backyard.

你們關心委內瑞拉，因為它在你們的後院。

So why don't you stay out of Ukraine and we'll stay out of Venezuela?

所以你們為什麼不別管烏克蘭，我們也別管委內瑞拉？

如果你想的話，這是一種互惠互利。

我確實記得這種互惠互利的關係。

對啊，但這本身不就是一項協議嗎？

Well, because the people doing foreign policy for Trump 1.0, like Fiona Hill, like John Bolton, who loves regime change.

嗯，因為川普政府時期那些負責外交政策的人，像是 Fiona Hill，還有約翰·博爾頓，他很喜歡政權更迭。

And he at one point recently told me, you know, I kept trying to get him to do regime change, and

而且他最近有一次跟我說，你知道，我一直試圖讓他進行政權更迭，然後

So they were like, we're not going to make this linkage.

所以他們就說，我們不會建立這種連結。

But according to Fiona, she thinks this is now back in the air.

但根據 Fiona 的說法，她認為這件事現在又重新浮現了。

And Medvedev, the former Russian president who was once a liberal, is dropping these hints again.

而梅德韋傑夫，這位曾經的自由派俄羅斯前總統，又開始釋出這些暗示了。

Donnie, we have to take a little break here.

Donnie，我們在這裡要休息一下。

我們馬上回來，和 Julia Yaffe 一起。

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烏克蘭換委內瑞拉？Julia Ioffe 談論川普與普丁的「交換條件」傳聞！ (Ukraine For Venezuela? Julia Ioffe On Rumors Of A Trump-Putin Quid Pro Quo)

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opportunity

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