and by the way, these two women,

帕特·米歇爾(PM)： 我最近一直在思索女性友誼

I'm very honored to say,

對了，我很榮幸向大家介紹

have been my friends for a very long time, too.

這兩位女士

Jane Fonda: Yes we have.

是認識非常久的老朋友

PM: And one of the things that I read about female friendship

珍‧芳達(JF)：的確

is something that Cervantes said.

PM：我曾讀過賽凡提斯講述 有關女性友誼的話

He said, "You can tell a lot about someone,"

他說

in this case a woman,

從一個人的朋友群

"by the company that she keeps."

這裡我們是指女生

So let's start with --

就可以看得出那人的修養

(Laughter)

那我們來開始

JF: We're in big trouble.

（笑聲）

Lily Tomlin: Hand me one of those waters,

JF：我們有大麻煩了

I'm extremely dry.

莉莉‧湯姆琳(LT)：水遞過來，我很渴

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

JF: You're taking up our time.

JF：妳在佔用我們的時間

We have a very limited --

我們只有非常有限...

LT: Just being with her sucks the life out of me.

LT：單單跟她在一起 就快榨光我的命了

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

JF: You ain't seen nothing yet.

JF：妳還沒看到更厲害的呢！

Anyway -- sorry.

好啦總之對不起

PM: So tell me, what do you look for in a friend?

PM：告訴我，妳在朋友身上尋求什麼

LT: I look for someone who has a sense of fun,

LT：我尋找有幽默感、勇於創新

who's audacious,

樂於助人、有政治觀

who's forthcoming, who has politics,

甚至有點熱愛地球

who has even a small scrap of passion for the planet,

舉止得體、有正義感

someone who's decent, has a sense of justice

並看重我的人

and who thinks I'm worthwhile.

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

（鼓掌）

(Applause)

JF：今早我在想

JF: You know, I was thinking this morning,

我根本無法想像 沒有我的女性朋友會怎樣

I don't even know what I would do without my women friends.

我的意思是說

I mean it's, "I have my friends, therefore I am."

我有朋友，故我在

LT: (Laughter)

LT：（笑聲）

JF: No, it's true.

JF：真的，沒騙妳

I exist because I have my women friends. They --

我因我的女性朋友們而存在

You're one of them.

妳也是其中之一

I don't know about you. But anyway --

至於妳這朋友，我就不知道了，反正...

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

You know, they make me stronger, they make me smarter,

她們使我更堅強、更聰明、更勇敢

they make me braver.

當我需要指正時 她們會來拍拍我肩膀

They tap me on the shoulder when I might be in need of course-correcting.

而且大多都比我年輕很多

And most of them are a good deal younger than me, too.

我是說，其實這滿不賴的 LT：真是謝囉

You know? I mean, it's nice -- LT: Thank you.

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

JF：我是認真的 我把妳歸在那類是因為

JF: No, I do, I include you in that, because listen, you know --

在邁向人生終點的旅途

it's nice to have somebody still around to play with and learn from

仍有人可以陪妳玩，讓妳學習是很棒的

when you're getting toward the end.

我越來越靠近死亡 我會比妳早抵達的

I'm approaching -- I'll be there sooner than you.

LT：不，我很高興有妳陪我一起老去

LT: No, I'm glad to have you parallel aging alongside me.

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

JF：我在幫妳帶路呢

JF: I'm showing you the way.

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

LT：妳一直以來都是

LT: Well, you are and you have.

PM：隨著我們年齡增長

PM: Well, as we grow older,

我們走過不同人生旅途

and as we go through different kinds of life's journeys,

妳們是如何維持友誼的

what do you do to keep your friendships vital and alive?

LT：妳必須用很多...

LT: Well you have to use a lot of --

JF：對了。她不常邀我去她家

JF: She doesn't invite me over much, I'll tell you that.

LT：我需要用很多社群媒體

LT: I have to use a lot of social media --

妳給我閉嘴，然後...

You be quiet now. And so --

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

LT：我看過每一封電郵、簡訊

LT: And I look through my emails, I look through my texts

來找到朋友以便可以盡快回覆他們

to find my friends,

因為我知道他們需要我的忠告

so I can answer them as quickly as possible,

（笑聲）

because I know they need my counsel.

他們需要我的支持

(Laughter)

因為我的朋友大多都是 作家、社運領導人或演員

They need my support,

而妳三者兼具

because most of my friends are writers, or activists, or actors,

外加一長串描述性字句

and you're all three ...

我希望我可以盡快與妳聯繫上

and a long string of other descriptive phrases,

我想讓妳知道我與妳同在

and I want to get to you as soon as possible,

JF：妳玩表情符號嗎

I want you to know that I'm there for you.

LT：呃 JF：沒有嗎

JF: Do you do emojis?

LT：這有點尷尬 JF：我超愛表情符號的

LT: Oh ... JF: No?

LT：不，我都會拼出我的

LT: That's embarrassing. JF: I'm really into emojis.

我拼出我的快樂、恭喜與悲傷

LT: No, I spell out my --

JF：妳把它們全都拼出來

I spell out my words of happiness and congratulations,

LT：我拼出每一個字母

and sadness.

（笑聲）

JF: You spell it right out --

JF：真是有夠龜毛

LT: I spell it, every letter.

當我越來越老時

(Laughter)

我越來越理解友誼的重要性

JF: Such a purist.

也因此我花了很多精力

You know, as I've gotten older,

找朋友玩，安排派對 不讓太多時間白白流逝

I've understood more the importance of friendships,

我讀很多書

and so, I really make an effort

因此如同莉莉所知

to reach out and make play dates -- not let too much time go by.

我會把喜歡的書寄給我朋友

I read a lot

LT：當我們知道今天要來這裡時

so, as Lily knows all too well,

妳寄給我一大堆有關 女人跟女性友誼的書

my books that I like, I send to my friends.

我很訝異看到最近

LT: When we knew we would be here today

竟有出版那麼多的書跟研究

you sent me a lot of books about women, female friendships,

JF：妳有很感激嗎 LT：有喔

and I was so surprised to see how many books,

（笑聲）

how much research has been done recently --

PM：那麼

JF: And were you grateful? LT: I was grateful.

LT：等等，這很重要因為這是另一個

(Laughter)

有關女人是如何被忽略 擱在一邊、邊緣化的例子

PM: And --

很少有關我們的研究

LT: Wait, no, it's really important because this is another example

儘管我們多次自願

of how women are overlooked, put aside, marginalized.

JF：沒錯

There's been very little research done on us,

（笑聲）

even though we volunteered lots of times.

LT：這個滿有趣的 你們都會對這感興趣的

JF: That's for sure.

哈佛醫學院的研究指出

(Laughter)

維持親密女性友誼的女人

LT: This is really exciting, and you all will be interested in this.

身體比較不容易衰退

The Harvard Medical School study has shown

隨著年紀身體的衰退

that women who have close female friendships

她們也較容易過更有活力精彩

are less likely to develop impairments --

JF：還有更長

physical impairments as they age,

LT：快樂的人生

and they are likely to be seen to be living much more vital, exciting --

JF：我們平均比男生多活五年

JF: And longer --

LT：我想我甘願短命一點換取快樂晚年

LT: Joyful lives.

（笑聲）

JF: We live five years longer than men.

LT：但最重要的是他們發現

LT: I think I'd trade the years for joy.

這些結果十分振奮人心而確切

(Laughter)

研究指出

LT: But the most important part is they found --

沒有女性摯友對身體健康有害

the results were so exciting and so conclusive --

與抽菸或過重有同等效果

the researchers found

JF：當然還有其他結論

that not having close female friends is detrimental to your health,

LT：反正我把我的部分講完了

as much as smoking or being overweight.

（笑聲）

JF: And there's something else, too --

JF：好，那現在聽我的部分

LT: I've said my part, so ...

因為還有一件事情

(Laughter)

這幾十年當他們嘗試理解壓力時

JF: OK, well, listen to my part, because there's an additional thing.

他們只研究男生

Because they only -- for years, decades --

直到最近他們才研究 女生面對壓力時的狀況

they only researched men when they were trying to understand stress,

結論是當我們有壓力時

only very recently have they researched what happens to women when we're stressed,

我們身體會分泌大量催產素

and it turns out that when we're stressed -- women,

一個讓妳感覺良好 平靜、舒壓的賀爾蒙

our bodies get flooded by oxytocin.

當我們跟女性朋友在一起時 它的濃度也會上升

Which is a feel-good, calming, stress-reducing hormone.

而我確信它是其中一個 讓我們活得比較久的理由

Which is also increased when we're with our women friends.

而我由衷對男生感到抱歉 因為他們沒有

And I do think that's one reason why we live longer.

男生體內的睪固酮 會降低催產素的效果

And I feel so bad for men because they don't have that.

LT：當妳跟我還有桃莉 一起拍攝喜劇《朝九晚五》時

Testosterone in men diminishes the effects of oxytocin.

JF：噢

LT: Well, when you and I and Dolly made "9 to 5" ...

LT：我們一直笑個不停

JF: Oh --

我們發現我們有許多共同點 但我們也是如此不同

LT: We laughed, we did, we laughed so much,

她就像好萊塢貴族

we found we had so much in common and we're so different.

我就像來自底特律的頑強孩子

Here she is, like Hollywood royalty,

（桃莉）是來自田納西 貧窮小鎮的南方小孩

I'm like a tough kid from Detroit,

我們發現身為女人 我們在一起是多麼和諧

[Dolly's] a Southern kid from a poor town in Tennessee,

而我們大笑的程度一定有 至少幫自己延長十年的壽命

and we found we were so in sync as women,

JF：我們倒是很常翹腳

and we must have --

（笑聲）

we laughed -- we must have added at least a decade onto our lifespans.

如果妳知道我在說什麼

JF: I think -- we sure crossed our legs a lot.

LT：我想我們都知道妳在說什麼

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

If you know what I mean.

PM：妳們正在幫我們延長幾十年壽命

LT: I think we all know what you mean.

因此在珍送我們 眾多有關女性友誼的書中

(Laughter)

有一本作者是我們十分景仰的 Sister Joan Chittister

PM: You're adding decades to our lives right now.

她說過有關女性友誼的話

So among the books that Jane sent us both to read on female friendship

女性朋友不單只是社交性的

was one by a woman we admire greatly, Sister Joan Chittister,

她也是精神性的

who said about female friendship

妳覺得妳的朋友是精神上的益友嗎

that women friends are not just a social act,

他們有帶給妳人生精神上的影響嗎

they're a spiritual act.

LT：精神上嘛，我確信是如此

Do you think of your friends as spiritual?

特別是一個你認識很久

Do they add something spiritual to your lives?

你花很多時間相處的人

LT: Spiritual -- I absolutely think that.

我可以從他們身上看到精神上的元素

Because -- especially people you've known a long time,

柔和、脆弱

people you've spent time with --

實際上在這關係裡有一種愛的成分

I can see the spiritual essence inside them,

我只是深深地看透朋友的心靈罷了

the tenderness, the vulnerability.

PM：妳認同嗎，珍？ LT：但我有超能力

There's actually kind of a love, an element of love in the relationship.

JF：朋友各式各樣

I just see deeply into your soul.

有生意上的朋友和派對朋友

PM: Do you think that, Jane --

這類型的我有很多

LT: But I have special powers.

（笑聲）

JF: Well, there's all kinds of friends.

但是讓催產素分泌的友誼

There's business friends, and party friends,

這種友誼是精神上的 因為讓人敞開心房，對吧？

I've got a lot of those.

我們很深入了解彼此，然後

(Laughter)

我發現與閨密在一起時，經常掉眼淚

But the oxytocin-producing friendships have ...

不是因為我傷心 而是因為我被他們感動和啟發

They feel spiritual because it's a heart opening, right?

LT：而且妳知道其中有個人就快要走了

You know, we go deep. And --

（笑聲）

I find that I shed tears a lot with my intimate friends.

PM：莉莉，我們兩個人都坐在這裡

Not because I'm sad but because I'm so touched and inspired by them.

妳是說誰啊

LT: And you know one of you is going to go soon.

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

而且我覺得當女人談友誼時

PM: Well, two of us are sitting here, Lily, which one are you talking about?

男人總是有點不解

(Laughter)

在妳的認知裡

And I always think, when women talk about their friendships,

到底男性友誼跟女性友誼有何差別

that men always look a little mystified.

JF：這有很多差別啊

What are the differences, in your opinion,

我想我們對男人需要很多同理心

between men friendships and women friendships?

（笑聲）

JF: There's a lot of difference,

因為他們沒有我們所擁有的

and I think we have to have a lot of empathy for men --

我想這也是為什麼他們比較早死吧

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

that they don't have what we have.

我對男人深感同情

Which I think may be why they die sooner.

因為女人，我沒有在開玩笑

(Laughter)

我們女性友誼是不隱藏、深入

I have a lot of compassion for men,

是坦承一切的

because women, no kidding, we --

我們冒著自身的脆弱 而這是男人不會做的

women's relationships, our friendships are full disclosure, we go deep.

像是，我多次問妳 妳覺得我怎樣

They're revelatory.

我真的把一切搞砸了嗎

We risk vulnerability -- this is something men don't do.

PM：妳做的很棒

I mean how many times have I asked you, "Am I doing OK?"

（笑聲）

"Did I really screw up there?"

JF：我想表達的是 我們會問女性朋友這種問題

PM: You're doing great.

但男人不會

(Laughter)

人們常把女性關係描述成面對面

JF: But I mean, we ask questions like that

但把男性關係描述成肩並肩

of our women friends,

LT：我是覺得多數時間男生不願意表露情感

and men don't.

他們寧可把更深層的感覺隱藏起來

You know, people describe women's relationships as face-to-face,

我想大致上那是傳統的認知吧

whereas men's friendships are more side-by-side.

他們寧可躲進男人窩裡面 看場比賽打打高爾夫球

LT: I mean most of the time men don't want to reveal their emotions,

或談談運動、打獵、汽車或做愛

they want to bury deeper feelings.

我是說這是種比較男人的行為

I mean, that's the general, conventional thought.

JF：妳說... LT：他們談論性吧

They would rather go off in their man cave and watch a game or hit golf balls,

我是說他們可以做愛

or talk about sports, or hunting, or cars or have sex.

如果他們把人帶進男人窩裡的話

I mean, it's just the kind of -- it's a more manly behavior.

（笑聲）

JF: You meant -- LT: They talk about sex.

JF：我發現有件事很有趣

I meant they might have sex

再一次地，心理學家是最近才發現的

if they could get somebody in their man cave to --

男生與女生出生時 是有相同的情感取向的

(Laughter)

如果你看新生男孩、女孩的影片

JF: You know something, though, that I find very interesting --

你會發現其實男孩跟女孩一樣

and again, psychologists didn't know this until relatively recently --

會凝視媽媽的眼睛

is that men are born every bit as relational as women are.

你知道的，他們需要情感上的的能量交換

If you look at films of newborn baby boys and girls,

當媽媽望向其他地方時

you'll see the baby boys just like the girls,

他們可以看到寶寶臉上的沮喪

gazing into their mother's eyes,

男生甚至會哭

you know, needing that relational exchange of energy.

他們需要情感

When the mother looks away, they could see the dismay on the child,

所以問題是 為什麼長大後這個取向變了

even the boy would cry.

答案是父權文化的關係

They need relationship.

需要情感或感性的男孩與年輕男性

So the question is why, as they grow older, does that change?

是很女孩子氣的

And the answer is patriarchal culture,

真正的男人不需要 詢問方向或表示需求

which says to boys and young men

當他們生病時不會去看醫生

that to be needing of relationship, to be emotional with someone is girly.

他們不求救

That a real man doesn't ask directions or express a need,

有一句引言我很喜歡

they don't go to doctors if they feel bad.

男人畏懼成為「我們」 會使他的「我」消失

They don't ask for help.

其實就是他的自我感

There's a quote that I really like,

相反地，女人的自我感是圓融的

"Men fear that becoming 'we' will erase his 'I'."

我們的「我們」 是我們保有的精神力量

You know, his sense of self.

是讓我們強壯的

Whereas women's sense of self has always been kind of porous.

不是說我們比男人好

But our "we" is our saving grace,

我們僅僅是不需要 證明自己的陽剛罷了

it's what makes us strong.

LT：還有

It's not that we're better than men,

JF：那是一句來自 Gloria Steinem 的引言

we just don't have our masculinity to prove.

所以我們可以表現我們的人性 LT：我知道 Gloris Steinem 是誰

LT: And, well --

JF：我知道妳知道她是誰，但我覺得...

JF: That's a Gloria Steinem quote.

（笑聲）

So we can express our humanity -- LT: I know who Gloria Steinem is.

但我想這是句好引言對吧

JF: I know you know who she is, but I think it's a --

不是說我們比男人好