and when I give my name, I'm often asked, "Where are you from?"

我是奇坦巴特，

And I normally say London.

當我說出我的名字時， 常會被問：「你來自哪裡？」

(Laughter)

我通常會說：「倫敦。」

But of course, I know what they're really asking,

（笑聲）

so I say something like,

但，當然我知道他們要問什麼，

"Well, my grandparents and my mum were born in India,

所以我會說類似這樣的話：

my dad and I were born in Kenya,

「我的母親和外祖父母在印度出生，

and I was brought up in London.

我父親和我在肯亞出生，

And then they've got me mapped.

而我在倫敦長大。」

"Ah, you're a Kenyan Asian. I've worked with one of those."

接著他們就會用地圖來標示我。

(Laughter)

「啊，你是肯亞亞洲人。 我之前有跟你們其中一個共事過。」

And from my name they probably assume that I'm a Hindu.

（笑聲）

And this sort of fixes me for them.

他們從我的名字 推測我可能是印度教徒。

But what about the Christians

他們就這樣把我定型了。

and the Muslims and the atheists

那麼，基督徒呢？

that I grew up with?

還有穆斯林或無神論者呢？

Or the socialists and the liberals,

我和他們一起長大。

even the occasional Tory?

或其他社會主義者及自由主義者，

(Laughter)

甚至偶有保守黨黨員呢？

Indeed, all kinds of women and men --

（笑聲）

vegetable sellers, factory workers, cooks, car mechanics --

的確，各式各樣，男男女女，

living in my working class area,

賣菜的人、工廠工人、 廚子、汽車技工，

in some profoundly important way,

他們住在我這勞動階層的地區，

they are also a part of me

大家都扮演重要的角色，

and are here with me.

他們也是我的一部份，

Maybe that's why I find it hard to respond to questions about identity

現在也與我同在這裡。

and about origin.

也許這就是為什麼我覺得很難回答

And it's not just a sort of teenage refusal to be labeled.

關於身分、關於出身的問題。

It's about our own most identities,

這並不像年輕人不想被貼標籤 這麼地單純而已。

the ones that we put our hands up to,

這是關於我們自己的身分，

the ones that we cheer for,

我們會舉手認同的那些身分，

the ones that we fight for,

我們所引以為傲的身分，

the ones that we love or hate.

我們會奮戰爭取的身分，

And it's about how we apprehend ourselves

我們熱愛或討厭的身分，

as well as others.

以及關於我們如何理解自己

And it's about identities we just assume that we have

和看待別人的身分。

without thinking too much about them.

這些身分是我們自己會認同、

But our responses to questions of identity and origin

想都不用想、理所當然的身分。

have substantial social and political importance.

但大家對於身分及出身問題的回應，

We see the wars, the rages of identity going on all around us.

有著極高的社會與政治的重要性。

We see violent religious, national and ethnic disputes.

我們到處看得到 因身分認同問題所引發的戰爭，

And often the conflict is based on old stories of identity

到處都有宗教、民族、 人種認同問題的暴力與爭執。

and belonging

而衝突的根本原因

and origins.

經常是身分、歸屬感、

And these identities are based on myths,

出身地認同問題等等的老故事。

typically about ancient, primordial origins.

這些身分認同建立在迷思上，

And these could be about Adam and Eve

典型是古老、原始、 出身源頭的身分認同問題。

or about the supremacy of a caste or gender

可能與亞當和夏娃有關，

or about the vitality of a supposed race

或是誰的社會地位比較高、 性別地位比較高，

or about the past glories of an empire or civilization

或是哪一族群的人才是正宗的，

or about a piece of land

或是過去帝國或文明的榮耀，

that some imagined deity has gifted.

或是一塊土地的所有權，

Now, people say

想像出來一塊神所賜予的土地。

that origin stories and identity myths make us feel secure.

人們說，

What's wrong with that?

出身源頭的故事及國家認同的迷思 能讓我們有安全感。

They give us a sense of belonging.

那樣有什麼不好？

Identity is your cultural clothing,

它們能給我們歸屬感。

and it can make you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

身分認同是你的文化外衣，

But does it really?

讓你覺得被包著很溫暖很舒服。

Do we really need identity myths to feel safe?

真的是這樣嗎？

Because I see religious, national, ethnic disputes

我們真的需要虛構的身分認同 才能感到安全嗎？

as adding to human misery.

因為在我看來， 宗教、種族、人種的爭執

Can I dare you

只會增加人類的苦難。

to refuse every origin myth

我能否挑戰你

that claims you?

是否敢拒絕每一個 宣稱與你有重大關係的

What if we reject every single primordial origin myth

出身源頭的身分認同迷思？

and develop a deeper sense of personhood,

如果我們拒絕每一個 原始的出身迷思，

one responsible to humanity as a whole

並發展出對個人特質更深的認識，

rather than to a particular tribe,

對整體人類負責，

a radically different idea of humanity

而不是為特定的族群負責，那會如何？

that exposes how origin myths mystify,

用一個全然不同的角度 來看待全體人類，

disguise global power,

揭露出身分的迷思如何迷惑、隱藏了

rapacious exploitation,

全球的權力、

poverty, the worldwide oppression of women and girls,

貪婪的剝削、貧困，

and of course massive, accelerating inequalities?

全球對女人和女孩的壓迫，

Now, origin myths are closely linked to tradition,

當然還有海量、快速增加的不平等。

and the word tradition points to something old

出身迷思與傳統有著密切的關係。

and permanent, almost natural,

「傳統」一詞是指某件古老、

and people assume tradition is just history,

恆久不變，幾乎純天然的東西，

simply the past condensed into a nice story.

很多人誤以為傳統

But let's not confuse tradition with history.

僅僅是濃縮成美好故事的歷史。

The two are often in severe conflict.

但千萬不要把傳統和歷史混淆了。

Origin stories are usually recently created fictions of ancient belonging,

這兩者常常會有劇烈的衝突。

and they're absurd

出身的故事通常是近代創造出來 虛構的古早歸屬感，

given the complexity of humanity

它們很荒謬，

and our vastly interconnected, even if very unequal world.

畢竟人性其實很複雜的，

And today we see claims to tradition

即使在這個非常不平等的世界中 我們彼此都是相互連結的。

that claim to be ancient

現今，我們看到有人打著傳統的旗號、

changing rapidly in front of our eyes.

號稱自己才是古老正統的人，

I was brought up in the 1970s near Wembley

正明目張膽快速地 改變著我們的社會。

with Asian, English, Caribbean, Irish families living in our street,

1970 年代，我在溫布萊一帶長大，

and the neo-Nazi National Front was massive then

和街坊的亞洲、英國、加勒比、 及愛爾蘭家庭一起長大，

with regular marches and attacks on us

那時新納粹民族陣線十分壯大，

and a permanent threat

常常在示威，且會攻擊我們，

and often a frequent reality of violence against us

威脅沒消失過，

on the streets, in our homes,

經常在街上、在我們家裡，

typically by neo-Nazis and other racists.

對我們使用暴力

And I remember during a general election a leaflet came through our letter box

幾乎都是新納粹主義者和 其他種族主義者所策動的。

with a picture of the National Front candidate for our area.

我記得有一次普選， 家裡的信箱有一張宣傳單，

And the picture

上面是我們那區的 民族陣線候選人照片。

was of our next-door neighbor.

而那張照片，

He threatened to shoot me once when I played in the garden as a kid,

是我們的隔壁鄰居。

and many weekends, shaven-headed National Front activists

我小時候在花園玩時， 他曾威脅過要射殺我，

arrived at his house

許多個週末，都有光頭的民族陣線

and emerged with scores of placards

激進份子到他家，

screaming that they wanted us to go back home.

許多標語海報被張貼出來，

But today he's one of my mum's best mates.

大聲吶喊著要我們滾回老家。

He's a very lovely, gentle and kind man,

但現在，他是我母親 最好的朋友之一。

and at some point in his political journey out of fascism

他是個很親切、溫和、仁慈的人，

he embraced a broader idea of humanity.

在他的法西斯主義政治 旅程中的某個時點，

There was a Hindu family that we got to know well --

他對人性有了更寬容的想法。

and you have to understand that life in our street

有一個我們很熟知的印度家庭──

was a little bit like the setting for an Asian soap opera.

各位要知道，在我們街坊的生活，

Everyone knew everyone else's business,

有點像是亞洲肥皂劇的場景。

even if they didn't want it to be known by anyone at all.

每個人都知道每個人的事，

You really had no choice in this matter.

即使你不想讓任何人 知道的事也會被知道。

But in this family, there was a quiet little boy

這不是你能選擇的。

who went to the same school as I did,

但這個家庭， 有一個很安靜的小男孩，

and after I left school, I didn't hear much more about him,

他和我上同一所學校，

except that he'd gone off to India.

我離開學校之後， 就沒什麼聽說他的事了，

Now around 2000,

只知道他去了印度。

I remember seeing this short book.

約 2000 年時，

The book was unusual

我看了一本簡短的書。

because it was written by a British supporter of Al Qaeda,

這本書很不尋常，

and in it the author calls for attacks in Britain.

因為它是由英國蓋達組織的 支持者所寫的，

This is in 1999,

在書中，作者呼籲大家攻擊英國。

so 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq was still in the future,

這是 1999 年，

and he helped scout New York bombing targets.

還沒有發生進攻伊拉克 事件和九一一事件，

He taught others how to make a dirty bomb to use on the London Underground,

他協助監視紐約炸彈攻擊的目標。

and he plotted a massive bombing campaign in London's shopping areas.

他教別人如何製作髒彈 用來炸倫敦地鐵，

He's a very high-risk security prisoner in the UK

他策劃了一個針對倫敦購物區的 大規模炸彈攻擊活動。

and one of the most important Al Qaeda figures to be arrested in Britain.

他是英國監獄中高風險的囚犯，

The author of that book

是英國逮捕的最重要的 蓋達組織人物之一。

was the very same quiet little boy

那本書的作者

who went to my school.

正是跟我上同一所學校的那位

So a Hindu boy from Britain

安靜的小男孩。

became an Al Qaeda fighter

所以，來自英國的印度男孩，

and a most-wanted international terrorist,

變成了蓋達組織的鬥士，

and he rejected what people would call his Hindu or Indian or British identity,

且是國際間極想要逮補的恐怖份子，

and he became someone else.

他拒絕了人們會用來稱他的 印度教、印度人或英國人身分，

He refused to be who he was.

他變成了另一個人。

He recreated himself,

他拒絕做過去的自己。

and this kind of journey is very common

他重新創造了他自己，

for young men and women

這對開始涉入蓋達組織、

who become involved in Al Qaeda or Islamic State

或伊斯蘭國、或其它

or other transnational armed groups.

跨國武裝團體的年輕男女而言，

Al Qaeda's media spokesman is a white American

這類的旅程非常常見。

from a Jewish and Catholic mixed background,

蓋達組織的媒體發言人 是個白種美國人，

and neither he nor the boy from my school

來自猶太教和天主教的混合背景，

were from Muslim backgrounds.

不論是他，或是我學校的那個男孩，

There's no point in asking them where are they from.

都不是來自穆斯林背景。

A more important question is where they're going.

問他們來自哪裡是沒意義的。

And I would also put it to you

更重要的問題是，他們要去哪裡。

that exactly the same journey occurs for those young men and women

我也要跟各位說的，

who were brought up in Muslim family backgrounds.

同樣的旅程也會發生在

Most of those who join Al Qaeda

在穆斯林家庭背景中長大的 年輕男女身上。

and other Salafi jihadi groups from Europe, Asia, North America,

大部份來自歐洲、亞洲、北美，

even in many cases the Middle East

甚至有許多來自中東，

are those who have comprehensively rejected their backgrounds

接著去蓋達組織及其他 沙拉菲聖戰團體的那些人，

to become, in essence, new people.

這些人都完全否認他們過往的背景，

They spend an enormous amount of time attacking their parents' backgrounds

而從本質上變成一個新的人。

as profane, impure, blasphemous,

他們花大把大把的時間 攻擊父母的來歷背景，

the wrong type of Islam,

說那粗俗、不純淨、褻瀆神明，

and their vision instead

是種錯誤的伊斯蘭教；

is a fantastical view of cosmic apocalypse.

而他們的觀點

It's a born again vision.

才是最高級正統的宇宙啟示觀點。

Discard your past, your society, your family and friends

它是重生的版本。

since they're all impure.

拋棄你的過去、你的社會、 你的家庭、你的朋友，

Instead, become someone else,

因為他們都不純淨。

your true self,

取而代之，變成另一個人，

your authentic self.

你的真正自我，

Now, this isn't about a return to the past.

你的真實自我。

It's about using a forgery of the past

這跟回到過去的傳統無關，

to envision an appalling future which begins today at year zero.

這跟他們利用偽造的過去有關，

This is why over 80 percent of the victims of Al Qaeda and Islamic State

預設了一個駭人聽聞的未來， 說今天就是這個未來的元年。

are people from Muslim backgrounds.

這就是為什麼蓋達組織和 伊斯蘭國的受害者中有 80%

The first act by Salafi jihadi groups when they take over an area

都是來自穆斯林背景的。

is to destroy existing Muslim institutions

沙拉菲聖戰團體佔據一個 地區時做的第一件事，

including mosques, shrines, preachers, practices.

就是摧毀既有的穆斯林機構，

Their main purpose is to control and punish people internally,

包括清真寺、神壇、傳道者、實踐機構。

to dictate the spaces that women may go,

他們的主要目的是控制人的思想 並懲罰人的內心，

their clothing, family relations,

像是限定女人能去的地方，

beliefs, even the minute detail of how one prays.

限定她們的服飾、家庭關係、信仰，

And you get the impression in the news

甚至如何祈禱的瑣碎細節。

that they are after us in the West,

你從新聞得到的印象是

but they are actually mainly after people from other Muslim backgrounds.

他們的主要目標是在西方的我們，

In their view, no other Muslim can ever be pure enough,

但其實他們的主要目標是 其他來自穆斯林背景的人。

so ordinary beliefs and practices that have existed for centuries

在他們的觀點， 其他的穆斯林是不夠純淨的，

are attacked as impure

所以已經存在數百年的 一般信仰和實踐機構，

by teenagers from Birmingham or London

會被來自伯明罕或倫敦的

who know nothing

青少年視為不純淨， 而被他們攻擊，

about the histories that they so joyously obliterate.

這些無知的青少年

Now here, their claim to tradition is at war with history,

根本完全不懂那些 他們樂於想要抹滅的歷史。

but they're nevertheless very certain about their purity

在這裡，他們打著 歷史傳統的口號發動戰爭，

and about the impurity of others.

認定他們才是純淨的，

Purity,

其他人是不純淨的。

certainty,

純淨、

the return to authentic tradition,

正統性、

the quest for these can lead to lethal visions

返回到真實的傳統、

of perfect societies and perfected people.

追尋這些，會讓一個

This is what the main Hindu fundamentalist organization in India

完美的社會和人民受傷害。

looks like today at its mass rally.

如今在印度，信奉印度基本教義的人 他們的大型集會

Maybe it reminds you of the 1930s in Italy or Germany,

看起來就是這個樣子。

and the movement's roots are indeed in fascism.

也許它會讓你想起 1930 年代在義大利或德國

It was a member of the same Hindu fundamentalist movement

紮根的法西斯主義活動。

who shot dead Mahatma Gandhi.

當時射殺甘地的人，

Hindu fundamentalists today view this murderer as a national hero,

就是這個活動中的成員之一。

and they want to put up statues of him throughout India.

現今的印度基本教義主義者 把這個兇手視為是國家英雄，

They've been involved for decades

他們想要在整個印度為他立雕像。

in large-scale mass violence against minorities.

數十年來，他們都有涉入

They ban books, art, films.

針對少數族群的大規模群眾暴力。

They attack romantic couples on Valentine's Day,

他們禁止書籍、藝術、電影。

Christians on Christmas Day.

他們在情人節攻擊浪漫的情侶，

They don't like others talking critically

在聖誕節攻擊基督徒。

about what they see as their ancient culture

他們不喜歡其他人去批判

or using its images

他們如何看待他們的祖先文化、

or caricaturing it

或使用它的形象，

or drawing cartoons about it.

或用漫畫誇張地描述它，

But the people making the strongest possible claims

或是把它當卡通題材。

about ancient, timeless Hindu religion

但針對古老、永恆的印度教

are dressed in brown shorts and white shirts

提出最強烈主張的人，

while claiming, oddly,

很奇怪地，在聲稱自己

to be the original Aryan race,

是正統的亞利安人的時候，

just like the violent Salafi jihadis

卻穿著褐色短褲和白色上衣，

who make their claims about their primordial religion

就像暴力的沙拉菲聖戰士

while dressed in black military uniforms

申稱他們才是創始宗教時，

and wearing balaclavas.

卻穿著黑色的軍服，

These people are manufacturing pure, pristine identities of conviction

戴著巴拉克拉法帽。

and of certainty.

這些人就是在製造純正信念、

Fundamentalists see religion and culture as their sole property, a property.

創始教義正統性假象的人。

But religions and cultures are processes.

他們將宗教和文化 視為他們獨有的資產，一種資產。

They're not things. They're impermanent. They're messy. They're impure.

但宗教和文化的演變是一個過程，

Look at any religion and you'll see disputes and arguments

它們不是東西，不會恆久不變； 它們是零散複雜、不純正的。

going all the way down.

世界上任何一個宗教

Any criticism of religion in any form

都會有人支持與批評。

has to therefore be

因此，任何形式對信仰

part of the expansive sense of humanity

做的任何評論，

we should aspire to.

都可以被視為人性的延伸，

I respect your right to have and to express your religion

我們都必須有包容的雅量。

or your culture or your opinion,

我尊重你有不同信仰、文化，

but I don't necessarily have to respect the content.

以及表達信仰理念的權力，

I might like some of it.

但我不見得要尊重它的內容。

I might like how an old church looks, for example,

但我可能會喜歡其中某些內容。

but this isn't the same thing.