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  • hello from the Financial Times in London.

  • I'm Police Clark, and this is news in focus where we offer our insights into the stories that matter.

  • It's nearly two years to the day since The New York Times and The New Yorker published explosive reports revealing that more than a dozen women had accused Harvey Weinstein, the Hollywood producer, off sexual assault and other crimes over a period of a least 30 years.

  • Scandal triggered the me to movement, and Mr Weinstein, co founder of the Miramax Entertainment Group, is now awaiting trial on rape and other sex crime charges, all of which he denies.

  • Ruin A.

  • Chu is a former Miramax employees who kept quiet about her experiences with Mr Weinstein until a month ago.

  • She's here with me now, along with the FT is legal correspondent K P L.

  • E.

  • And Ryan is going to tell her story and explain how a non disclosure agreement forced her to remain silent for more than 20 years and why she's decided to speak out now.

  • Romana, let's start at the beginning and tell us a little bit about your life before you met Harvey Weinstein.

  • So in 1998 I had only graduate from university two years previously.

  • Eso really working for Harvey was my first or second job out of college.

  • And what had you been studying in college?

  • I read English language and literature at Oxford.

  • And how come you decided to get into the film industry?

  • So it Oxford.

  • I did a great deal of film and theatre.

  • Um, I work in theater for a short while, but film seemed tohave more long term prospects.

  • And so I ended up international Creative Management, which is one of Hollywood's big talent agencies.

  • And it was from I C.

  • M that I was recruited to work for Harvey's office here in London, here in London.

  • And so you started working for him in 1998 in Miramax.

  • Is officers here?

  • That's right.

  • Uh, and you'd actually be warned, I think, by Zelda Perkins.

  • One of Mr Weinstein's assistance here in London that he could be a bit of a pest, and he was someone to look out for.

  • Is that right?

  • Right.

  • So I think that I have my interview with Zelda.

  • She had said that he was difficult to manage on that I was the handle him robustly on.

  • I think it is important to stress that, you know, pretty much every boss in the film industry is difficult to manage, whether man or woman.

  • So I, uh I didn't feel deterred by the fact that he would be hard to manage.

  • I think that's Ah, sort of part of the no business of being an assistant in the film industry.

  • It wasn't particularly clear how much that difficulty is to do with temper and how much of it was to do with sexual predator ation.

  • Um, and obviously that became unfortunate.

  • Quite clear later.

  • Okay, So you started working for him in 98.

  • And what specifically was the role?

  • Um, I was also an assistant, Charlie Weinstein.

  • Both Zelda and I were assisting him and I was learning the job from Zelda.

  • So I was in effect, a second assistant.

  • It is that it was our role when Harvey came over to London and then traveled across Europe to accompany him.

  • I'm either on to film festivals most typically, but also if films were shooting cross your we would also do that kind of travel.

  • And then the times in between when he was in the U.

  • S.

  • Or elsewhere in the world.

  • We would be back at the office working on general office work.

  • Azzan reading scripts on dhe general work from Miramax.

  • Yeah.

  • And so when you first met him, how did he seem to you?

  • He is certainly right from beginning.

  • Very difficult to handle.

  • Um, he Ah, When I first met Harvey, it was at a screening room in Soho where we were looking at, Ah, most recent version of Shakespeare in love.

  • Um, certainly.

  • It's not like a typical encounter with the boss.

  • As in, there are no pleasantries.

  • Hey, doesn't come to you.

  • Say hi.

  • I'm Harvey Weinstein, and I hear your Romeo in joining my office.

  • Really?

  • I was asked to ah, you know, do exactly what he asked me to do on.

  • So I tell a story about how we sat in a screening room and he asked me to sit in front of him, and that was really my sort of audition, as it were for working for Harvey.

  • Because what happened?

  • Well, it's, uh he asked me to sit in front of him during the screening on, um if I were to move in any way from sitting in front of him, he would yell at me, abusive of entry.

  • Um, but then you went to the Venice Film Festival and tell us what happened there.

  • The next month, I traveled to the Venice Film Festival on the Dove Il Film Festival, and we did the two festivals back to back.

  • Um, it's a fairly typical trip with Harvey.

  • You got a call from New York saying he's on his way, and your west off by limousine and private Jet Andi essentially as his assistant.

  • You do what you can to facilitate his time while he's there.

  • So that come your phone calls and organizing meetings and making sure that the flow in and out of the office, which is the same as the hotel room suite, is smooth, eh?

  • So that's really the job of the assistant, Um, on the night in question.

  • Ah, typically, what happens is elder being the more senior of the two Assistance would wake Harvey in the morning and work with him in the morning from about 6 a.m. To about 10 a.m. on her own.

  • And then I would come on duty on we would work together during the business of the day, which is typically from about 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. So it's a long day in the evening.

  • I would remain back at the hotel, which also doubled as our office reading scripts, sorting out paperwork, lining up calls and things like that and sell that would accompany him to the events of that evening.

  • Beer, too, did a dinner or a gardener or an award ceremony.

  • Okay, um so tells what happened on, um at the moment when he made some really quite extraordinary advances towards you.

  • What?

  • I think it is fairly typical off.

  • Ah, assistance Life that you stay back in the hotel.

  • I had read some of the scripts, eh?

  • So when he got back from the dinner or the event, he would ask which scripts I had read and for my thoughts on those scripts.

  • And so we will spend a lot of the evening discussing the content of the scripts and what I thought was strong on what I thought was no particularly strong on that segue wade into more general discussions about my ambitions for being in the film industry, you know, at that time was just starting out in films, that he would talk a lot about the things that I'd want to do with my life and film.

  • And some of that would Segway into personal details is dead.

  • Who I was dating, who my boyfriend was at the time, what his aspirations were, and so on and so forth.

  • And so I think you know, there's a process where some of the discussion is professional and to do with the work that I was, therefore, which is assessing scripts and you know, fairly quickly the conversation turns to personal on dhe and also physical because, you know, as we all know, from the various accounts of things that have happened to people in different hotel rooms, there are requests for massages.

  • Harvey is frequently naked in these types of situations on, you know, it can become unpleasant and difficult quite quickly.

  • And was he naked when you were in the hotel room?

  • Yes.

  • So did you just arrive?

  • Walk in the door and I'm already in the hotel at the time when he returns from his event.

  • When he returns from his event in order to be comfortable, he gets into a robe, right, and then removes the road robe.

  • Correct.

  • And you've written in The New York Times this'll month about your experience and how you decided that it would be a good idea to wear two pairs of tights.

  • Why was that?

  • Well, I think that, you know, there's a certain amount of controlling and harassment that comes with working for Harvey.

  • And, um, it's imprudent at the time to try to wear as many layers of clothes as possible because it buys you time if you need to get out of the room.

  • I mean, while he's strolling around naked, Uh, were you expected to sit there and just concentrate on the scripts and the work that you were doing or what was that is frequently what we did?

  • Oh, the two of you.

  • Ah, well, actually, he would only be naked in there as I understand it in the early mornings in the late evening.

  • So it's not something that he would do while two of us were in the room.

  • So, for example, with rnd a one of the things that we had originally asked for was that you travel with two people because that is a form of protection, much in the way that two pairs of tights would be.

  • So what happened on that particular evening?

  • And so it was a fairly typical evening in the sense that I was reading scripts.

  • And we're having some discussion about the scripts which, you know, bled into a discussion on the personal nature.

  • Andi, uh, things became, you know, difficult quite quickly.

  • And I ended up being pushed against the bed on DDE.

  • He attempted to rape me after that happened.

  • Um, what did you decide to do?

  • Or the following morning, I went to talk to Zelda.

  • As soon as we had time on our own, which was really when Harvey left the hotel suite for lunch.

  • Um, Andi, uh, we, uh you know, I told her what had happened the night before, which was a difficult conversation, and she reacted pretty emotionally, and so we were both in the hotel room, you know, really, considering our options on, I think it was very difficult for us at that time.

  • We were far from home.

  • Uh, I was 24 She was 25 and we actually had very few resources at our disposal.

  • and we had come to Venice.

  • Ah, via means that mirror acts are provided by Transportacion that they provided by an Amex card corporate card that they provided.

  • We didn't have a lot of resources at our own disposal to make our own way back to London.

  • So we had briefly talked about going to the Italian police, but it just seemed incredibly difficult.

  • Neither of us spoke Italian, and we didn't know whether we'd be believed.

  • And so, you know, it seemed that the best option was to continue with the trip with certain provides is clearly in place.

  • So number one Zelda with absolute adamant that she was going to go down and confront Harvey right away, which she did.

  • And she was also adamant that I wouldn't spend any time in a hotel room room with him by myself for the rest.

  • The trip and she very much protected me in that sense, and I didn't bet any alone time with Harvey for the rest trip.

  • But we did finish strip in Venice and also subsequently at the developed from possible, and so it was really fast forward.

  • A few days when we go back to London when we considered longer term what our options would be.

  • And, you know, we did approach more senior people in the office, you know, really?

  • Our first port of call with Donald Gelati.

  • He was a producer on Shakespeare in love.

  • Um ah, nde.

  • We, uh But, you know, there weren't very many people working in the Miramax office at that time.

  • So, you know, Donna was the most senior person when you go to you.

  • And there weren't many other attentive.

  • I mean, what was it like working for a corporate company where there's an HR policies in place, nature officers to go to?

  • Perhaps there would be more of that in New York, But in London, we were an outpost on.

  • Eventually you decided that you should look at hiring a lawyer.

  • So Donna had recommended that we hire a lawyer on DDE.

  • You know, really A 24 and 25 we didn't know how to go about finding a lawyer.

  • We sort of did what in retrospect, seems to be ridiculous things, but we went and talked to the Citizens Advice Bureau.

  • I was in law school at the time, so I spoke to my law professor at the time.

  • But, you know, we spoke on the condition of anonymity.

  • We didn't mention our names.

  • We didn't say who we work for.

  • We didn't even say which industry we were in.

  • Um, and so there's only really so much advice people could give you when you can't part with any of the details off.

  • Why you are.

  • You might be seeking a lawyer.

  • Um, so you know, Zelda and I won't.

  • Zelda walked around SoHo looking for a lawyer, and eventually we were able to hire a small firm that took on the negotiations for the N D.

  • A.

  • Okay, and not tell us what happened then, because you had this reasonably small for me.

  • And, of course, Miramax had quite a large for him.

  • Um, what happened in initially?

  • Once you have decided to go with a small firm.

  • Our first step was Jim for constructive dismissal and to fax the New York office to say that's Elder and I were were resigning.

  • So, uh, that was the first step that we took.

  • Um, you will convict constructive dismissal over half his behavior with the help of the lawyers that you have by ourselves.

  • Isil on.

  • And then, uh, you know, we were contacted by Healthy Sawyer's quite quickly after that, okay?

  • And so then you hired your own lawyers, and they took it from there when it came to dealing with Have you one instance, Louis.

  • So before we invoked vote constructive dismissal, we had a law firm who agrees Thio support us in the process off negotiating with Harvey or whatever might come about.

  • Um So once we were contacted by Harvey's lawyers, um, things moves pretty quickly.

  • And what happened?

  • Eso We were summoned to negotiations at large London or phone, which turned out to be Alan Ovary.

  • And so we spent time at the offices of Alan and Ovary while an agreement was bashed out on non disclosure, a nondisclosure for both of you.

  • And so it wasn't really for both of us, wasn't really.

  • When we started these kind of negotiations, it wasn't the intention that we would sign a settlement agreement.

  • In fact, we very much wanted to take Harvey either to legal authorities that would be the police or report him within his own corporate structure.

  • And since Harvey was the CEO of Miramax, that would have meant going to the Walt Disney Company.

  • So the priority at that time was ready to exposed Harvey and to stop these types of assaults happening to any other women.

  • It certainly wasn't to sign a settlement agreement or to take any form of settle.

  • Well, who advised you to take the agreement?

  • Our lawyers.

  • So it was offered by alone an ovary.

  • Well, uh, as I've said several times, we were pretty young at the time, 24 or 25 on dhe, the grown ups in the room, so to speak.

  • Or seemed to make it very clear that our only path forward wants to sign the settlement agreement on Dhe, accept a settlement and go away and never speak of this again.

  • And in order for us to be a kaput through some of the clauses that we very much want to put through, that Harvey should go to therapy that Miramax should put in place some HR ombudsman and so on.

  • It was suggested to us that the only way we could get some of this on the table was if we agreed to be silenced and to take to accept a sum of money in order to never speak of this again.

  • I'm actually surprised that we were.

  • We ended up being ushered into a process where we were negotiating a non disclosure.

  • We found ourselves negotiating a non disclosure agreement without really stronger suggestion from either our lawyers or other more senior people in Iraq that we should go to the police.

  • We seem to be the only people who suggested that we should go to the police on.

  • We were very much discouraged from doing so.

  • I think the feeling was really that we wouldn't be believed.

  • We didn't have any physical evidence.

  • It was a case of she said.

  • He said, She said in a hotel room in Venice, And you know, as I've expressed in my op ed and it has been expressed in numerous other interviews, you know, we really had very little power compared to the most powerful man in Hollywood, as he was at the time.

  • But the nature of the negotiations that you had also sounded quite extraordinary.

  • At one time.

  • You were kept overnight from about 5 p.m. To 5 a.m. In negotiations.

  • Did your lawyers never say Hang on.

  • We need to take a break here.

  • Well, I think the whole process was pretty intimidating and it was very difficult to push back.

  • I mean, there were other issues also, that I you know that looking back, we're very difficult.

  • We were escorted to the bathroom at all times.

  • We weren't allowed to make phone calls.

  • We weren't even allowed to keep a pen and paper.

  • And in the end, we had signed this incredibly regis and very difficult.

  • And yet, I mean, there was no way that there's a boilerplate 30 pages of a very difficult agreement to adhere to, and we weren't allowed to keep a copy of it.

  • Now, that is not necessarily normal.

  • No, no, very much, not highly irregular.

  • And your lawyers didn't object.

  • Well, I think that there was a feeling that we very much wanted certain clauses which I'd ever size that, that we wanted to put safeguards in place to protect other women.

  • You know, for example, were Harvey two assaults anyone else and to settle with them within two years of our agreement, it would automatically trigger his resignation from Miramax and a report of the Walt Disney Company, which is something we very much wanted in the first place.

  • So the feeling was really that In order for us to put through the things that we really wanted, we had to give up so certain things that as as with any negotiation, But, um, yeah, I think the clause that we couldn't keep a copy the negotiation is actually particularly difficult to defend.

  • I really don't have anything to say about that.

  • Other than there was a high level of paranoia from Harvey Side and from his lawyers Um, you know, when you look at certain clauses within the nd a ah, lost the Klaus is going to a great detail about who we can speak to, who we may not speak to, even if there's a court case.

  • I believe that there's a provision that says that if if he ever appeared in court and you were called as a witness, you supposedly wants a when it was supposed to limit your remarks, which seems right or in fact, support, if that use our efforts to support coffee side of things, I mean, that can't be legal.

  • Well, I think quite a bit of Annie and Jay seems like it couldn't be legal um, I would say about the N d A.

  • That it's certainly immoral and unethical whether or not it's technically illegal.

  • That's really for the lawyers to decide.

  • I think it takes a while for the law to catch up.

  • I think the way that RND A's drafted it's certainly not the original use for N.

  • D.

  • A's, um, and so that brings us really into the controversial, murky area off.

  • Should such nds exist on dhe, should moves be made really to abolish these types of entities that are essentially being used to cover up crimes?

  • Yeah, And what led you finally to decide to go public?

  • It's an incredibly difficult decision.

  • Um, I did not go public in October 2017 when Jody and Meghan first broke the story.

  • Um, and it was re conscious decision at that time not to go public with many other victims.

  • Um, I quite a young family.

  • Ah, my youngest child was only six months old at the time, and I really, you know, consider the personal impact on my family.

  • Ah, I hadn't really been able to talk to my own family of origin.

  • My my parents and I hadn't had conversations with their parents and my sister or friends of mine from 20 years ago.

  • And I think also when you've maintained it, Twitter nearly 20 years.

  • Silence.

  • It's not something that you break overnight.

  • It took a while to kind of emotionally get to the place where I thought I'd be ready to come forward with the story.

  • Yeah, Kate, sitting here listening to this You've been following moves in the UK to persuade the government here to legislate to ensure that India's can't be used to cover up harassment on and behavior of the sort that Rohit has experienced.

  • What's actually happened so far?

  • Well, we've had kind of successive waves of consultations here from parts of the government regulatory bodies.

  • There remains a lot of confusion about this area.

  • Last year we had the women and Equalities Committee look into this, and they found some really distressing evidence that n.

  • D.

  • A's were being used routinely to cover up claims of harassment and as a way of avoiding really interrogating, investigating these discrimination claims.

  • So they came out with the Siri's off recommendations on a lot of those were around making it an offence for an India or an employer to stop people from reporting things to the police on Dhe Maur kind of recommendations along those lines.

  • And now we've had the Basil department for business, Energy and industrial Strategy has also looked at this, and they've come out with a series of proposed rules or proposed new laws on.

  • Those include things like preventing any nd a from stopping someone from going to the police from reporting discrimination to a regulator from, you know, stopping people from reporting these things to a health care professional or therapists, for example, on they want to see more enforcement or better enforcement against N.

  • D.

  • A's that don't subscribe to one of those rules.

  • But so far that is really just talk because we haven't seen any new rules on a lot of people are calling it settle.

  • The Perkins, for example, very keen to see Andy is banned in these cases where they are just used to cover up harassment.

  • But we haven't seen much progress on that, and that's on area of quite a lot of debate.

  • Yeah, and do we think that India's air being used in the UK and perhaps in other European countries as much as they've bean in the US or that any countries where they seem to be more prevalent than others?

  • Or is it something that's probably just crept up quietly on Diz?

  • An.

  • In fact, very wide spread around the world.

  • It is actually very difficult to know, I mean by their nature.

  • And Jay's a secretive clauses.

  • We just don't have the data.

  • And that's part that part of the worrying thing here, you know, who knows just how many of these have been signed and for what purpose.

  • Ah, lot of lawyers are saying that what we really need for companies that have effectively registers of NGOs that have been signed so that you can see are their pockets of the department's where they are being used.

  • Time and again, you know, arguably for the wrong purpose is, but without that data, it's very difficult to move forward.

  • And what do you think about the way in which the lawyers behaved in, Really, in this case, I mean her own lawyers as well as, in fact, her own lawyers as well as Elon's.

  • Yeah, I mean, I think a key thing say here is that we're talking a lot about the reform of N.

  • D.

  • A's.

  • And I think in many cases powerful people have used or abuse the confusion around what is and is not already allowed under the eight and the regime to to abuse the rules, basically.

  • But it is very clear when you speak to most people that it is entirely wrong to draft N e N d A.

  • Which would prevent someone from speaking to a therapist prevent them from disclosing that information to regulators.

  • To the police, it is entirely wrong to prevent someone from having a copy of the agreement that they have signed on.

  • It's also wrong to pressure or harass someone into signing one of these.

  • So I think it's quite clear that there there have been egregious behavior is here which most people would consider to be unacceptable under the current regime.

  • Yeah, yeah, really.

  • You're not suggesting that India's should be banned outright?

  • I don't think or are you?

  • You know, I think this is a very difficult issue.

  • I think one thing that is often misunderstood about NDS is there frequently requested by the victim because they feel that their mid career or they have some kind of reputation to protect or a career path to maintain on.

  • I think that a victim of sexual assault is often beguiled into thinking that they can find an Indian and essentially draw a line under a very unpleasant experience and move on with their life.

  • I can really only speak personally.

  • Certainly at the age of 24 I thought I was drawing a line and able to walk away from, you know, a very unpleasant chapter in my young life so far.

  • And I could say that over the last 20 years, that's obviously been far from the case.

  • It's very difficult to move on emotionally.

  • It was certainly impossible to find another job in the film industry, and essentially all careers on our emotional eyes were for a long time derailed after the signing of the India.

  • So I think these are repercussions for us that we couldn't foresee at the time.

  • And having heard from lots of other victims of sexual harassment, you signed N.

  • D.

  • A's.

  • Sadly, my story isn't the only one to sort of end in that way.

  • So whilst they wouldn't call necessarily for their outright abolition, I think they're very much needs much more regulation around their way.

  • They're used.

  • And certainly I think abolition wouldn't be too far for the cases where they they are covering up harassment or outright crime.

  • Crime?

  • What do you think?

  • Hey, what's what's the this way of reforming the system?

  • And I think we certainly needs new rules about where in the A should be used and where they are inappropriate.

  • But I think most of all right now we need more clarity around.

  • What isn't is no allowed under the current rules on We need more standardization off how these clauses are drawn up ons around the behavior around that process in terms of people taking independent legal advice, being given the time to digestive things on being given copies off the agreement, for example.

  • So I think there's quite a lot that we could already do without even the need for more legislation.

  • But I also think that we definitely need more transparency around the way that they're being used.

  • Currently, things like these company registers, we need more information about the use and abuse.

  • Yeah, and would you agree to that sound a reasonable set of provisions?

  • Yes, absolutely I think for the victims, it's, you know, it's difficult enough as it is to kind of understand you already under a very stressful situation on.

  • So it's not up to the victim, really.

  • To understand how India's can or cannot be used so much more.

  • Education used to happen on the part of the lawyers so that they can advise no victims of sexual sort properly.

  • Ridley and I think actually we also need much better enforcements in terms of avoiding India.

  • Is that that have been drawn up in in the wrong kind of settings or in the wrong way?

  • Well, that's actually a really interesting point.

  • I mean, uh, so that would actually allow people have signed them to come forward and attempt to have avoided in a court.

  • Well, I mean, it would be very difficult.

  • This is something under debate.

  • I think it probably would be the case that any new law would not be retrospective.

  • It would probably mean that we would have new legislation setting out the rules and the parameters around in the A's, and then you would have enforcement off those India is going forward, which would prevent people who had been designed them in the wrong circumstances.

  • But I think a lot of people will be left feeling very concerns about all of the people who might have signed them in the past and in settings where that's been abused.

  • Yeah, yeah, and just finally ruined.

  • I suppose that, you know, for anyone listening to this, if they've ever had anything remotely like the experiences that you've been through, what would be your advice to them now?

  • I think it's difficult to generalize about that because everyone has every in the fields of sexual assault.

  • Everyone has their own deeply personal, deeply traumatizing experiences.

  • I think that, um, you know, it's a sort of very individual journey, whether or not to speak out on I don't think that we can.

  • Certainly I don't feel I can judge whether someone remain silent or is prepared to speak out.

  • Uh, I think if you are assigned an N D.

  • A and you're on the verge of breaking it and you want to come out with your story, um, I would definitely say, Get your ducks in a row with lining up your own personal support system, you know, make sure that things are squared away with with your family.

  • You know, I made sure I want to make sure that things were squared away with my husband and my Children and my family of origin before I spoke out.

  • Because the impact there could be, uh, much more devastating than than than you could imagine.

  • Both.

  • You know, I think they complicated whether you remain silent.

  • That's devastating in its own way.

  • But also, even if you come forward with your story, that creates another burden that you didn't carry when you were silent in sense that once the story is out in the public, it grows legs on dhe.

  • It's no longer necessarily, uh, you can't necessarily manage it.

  • So that has his own pressures.

  • Yeah.

  • Ruina, choose.

  • Thank you so much for telling your story and kpl you Thank you very much too.

hello from the Financial Times in London.

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