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  • Hello Emma! Rebecca! Lovely to be hanging out with you!

  • 00:00:12,035 --> 00:00:15,255 This is a dream come true for me. This is genuinely...I love this part

  • of the world and to get to interview you

  • in my favorite part of the world is kind of about as good as it gets

  • so - thank you so much for agreeing to do this.

  • My pleasure! lovely to hang out with you again

  • You are one of the most intelligent and

  • prolific women I know and have had

  • the pleasure to meet. You've written 20 books on feminism..

  • Well i've written 24 or 25 books, but

  • many of them are not about feminism [Yes]

  • All of them are secretly feminist and some of them are overtly feminist

  • ...I would say! That makes sense! [Yes]

  • What drives you to write so

  • prolifically? I successfully

  • avoided husbands and children and day jobs. [laughter]

  • Those things can all really interfere

  • with your productivity. [laughter]

  • Amazing! and I'm always

  • fascinated by...

  • I find if I have anything to write I procrastinate

  • magnificently. Do you have

  • a rigorous writing schedule

  • whereby you write between this hour and this hour

  • and you eat this very specific thing and...

  • is there a routine that kind of helps you

  • get so much done?

  • I get up every morning and have tea

  • with milk on an octagonal tray I bought at a thrift store

  • many years ago...

  • and like that has to happen fairly early

  • and then the rest of it is kind of a muddle and a blur

  • and I often feel like the most distracted, disorganized person

  • ever...but books do

  • issue fourth regularly which makes me think

  • 'if i'm this disorganized, what's everybody else

  • doing?' [laughter] and...

  • 00:01:50,085 --> 00:01:52,735 But , you know I really wanted to be a writer

  • I love books and writing was

  • like one way - even more than reading - to be

  • with books, in books, about books and so

  • when I learnt how to read, I just decided I was going to write books

  • ...which is a very easy decision until

  • you actually have to do it, but

  • somehow, one thing led to another.

  • In your bio, you cite that you are a

  • product of the California public

  • school system from kindergarten to graduate school.

  • How did that shape you ? Why did you

  • want to mention it in that way?

  • It's actually very funny, I was on a panel with two men

  • just up the road in Monterey about 10 years ago

  • and they both named dropped

  • their ivy league universities. I was like 'your older than me,

  • we don't name drop our universities'

  • and then I was like 'that's what an ivy league education

  • is for apparently!

  • and I was like well.... can Isay bad words on this?

  • [Yes, I think so] Well I was like well 'fuck it! if they are gonna name drop...

  • the ivy leagues, i'm gonna name drop

  • public education in California. [Yes!]

  • *Applause*

  • That's so cool! I sometimes worry that

  • someday they'll say like 'well we should defund that

  • because it produced her' but... [laughter]

  • But I just realized, you know...

  • we've got to name drop these things. That's amazing! I love that you

  • did that so incredibly specifically.

  • Was there one specific moment or

  • a series of moments that led up to you

  • knowing that you wanted to be a writer?

  • I wanted to be a ballerina and then I learnt how to write,

  • how to read, which apparently happened very rapidly

  • in first grade.

  • My Mom says the first week; and then I thought

  • I wanted to be a librarian 'cos they

  • spar with books all day - what could be lovelier than that?

  • Until I realized that somebody wrote all those books,

  • and books for me, you know it's like a magic

  • box - until you can read them,

  • you can open it, but you can't actually

  • see what's inside, or do anything with what's inside, so

  • just that act of learning how to read pretty quickly

  • to my third and final career decision which I've stuck with.

  • Amazing! Yeah

  • It's very easy to decide to do something,

  • actually doing it is a whole other thing.

  • And it must have been like that with you deciding to be an actress?

  • You had to act? Yeah...well...

  • It did happen fast! Yes! it certainly did

  • I mean, it kind of came out of nowhere

  • to be honest. It was actually

  • poems and poetry that really got me and I was on the debating team

  • because I was really nerdy like that! That was what got me into it...

  • This feels like a ....

  • it must be a calling for you. I mean you've truly dedicated your life

  • to doing this, and I love that sometimes I

  • email you and I get an "out of office" kind of...

  • 'In order to get anything done, I cannot respond to

  • emails' and I just love that you

  • create that.. [I try] Yeah!

  • The really nice people

  • listen to those things and the less nice people

  • continue to chase you around.

  • Really?! As you know, as you know...

  • [Yeah] But it's a really interesting thing that

  • nobody calls you up, nobody emails you

  • desperately urging you to

  • do the work most central to your life and your vision

  • and yourself, everybody wants you to do something other than that,

  • and a lot - some of it's noble causes

  • and some of it's favors for deserving friends

  • and some of it.... you know...

  • and I believe in service and support of the community

  • but....

  • I couldn't possibly do everything i'm

  • asked to do

  • and if I did

  • half of it, I would never write another book, so there's

  • this interesting thing [love that!]

  • I think if I had been popular as a young woman, I would have

  • had a much easier time with people wanting things from me, but

  • you know, I was like hiding in libraries and

  • reading a book a day.

  • I love that 'the work most central to your vision.'

  • That's such beautiful way of

  • putting it - which makes sense

  • because you're a beautiful writer! so, that makes

  • sense. In 'Whose Story is This?

  • Old Conflicts and New Chapters', you

  • talk so brilliantly about how

  • power determines who gets to tell their story

  • and who gets to be believed.

  • Are there

  • stories, or

  • people that you really wish we were hearing

  • more of right now, beyond those that you cite

  • in your book?

  • I think everybody in this room,

  • everybody listening to this recognizes that

  • women, people of color, non-straight,

  • non-cisgender people

  • have not been sufficiently

  • allowed to take center

  • stage to the stories, to determine what matters

  • to set the priorities, and that's changing in some ways,

  • but something I always feel, and I read about in

  • the introduction to this book, before we get all like

  • 'they were a disaster, but now we're

  • awesome and we're so damn woke is...

  • I feel like...

  • next year, next decade, next

  • century, we'll be like 'Oh my God

  • those people in the year 2019

  • so completely missed this and now we see...

  • now we include this thing we excluded, so I feel

  • there are things we don't see yet and we always have to

  • recognize how finite

  • our vision is and how much more is out there

  • and you know there are other things coming along

  • and we have to be grateful to the people who woke us up

  • and who taught us to see these other things as i've

  • been taught so much by indigenous activists,

  • black lives matter, feminism

  • and...

  • a life blessedly spent among the gay men of San Francisco

  • and, you know etc...and the drag queens

  • and the dykes.

  • Have there been moments, are there things that you've written

  • that you look back on that you feel

  • gosh, I ...you know...

  • I had a blind spot here? or...

  • Are there things that you would, you wish

  • that retroactively or in retrospect you could go back and add more

  • context to? It's interesting because

  • there are a bunch of things, including my first book which was

  • about the visual artists who are part of beat culture, who I feel like

  • I kind of surfed a specific layer of

  • the culture and you go deeper...

  • you know I didn't have the

  • equipment to go after the massive misogyny of that era,

  • although some of it, as I was talking to

  • people of that generation was being targeted at me.

  • The memoir I have coming out that's in your lap

  • you know, takes care of the beats very

  • thoroughly as

  • people will presently see. So you revisited?

  • Yeah, so I feel like there were things I

  • understood better and that were clearer

  • you know, and I don't feel like any of those things is a misrepresentation

  • but it often feels like I both

  • have space to say things I might not have earlier

  • and that it's really

  • kind of when you tell a story you decide which layer

  • you're going and that i've been spending

  • a lot of time the last decade on the feminist layers,

  • the gender politics and

  • things which I was gentler about in some of

  • those earlier books. Interesting.

  • Of those 20 books

  • that are part of this

  • anthology, is there one

  • particular one that

  • stands out to you as the one you are most

  • proud of? Or that you feel...

  • If, you know... Oh Emma! Impossible, it's like choosing children!

  • I know, I know!

  • and it's really ...they did different things

  • like, my book 'Hope in the Dark'

  • I wrote in the bleak era

  • after the bombing in Iraq started and it was

  • written to

  • encourage people of what a writer friend of mine reminded me doesn't

  • to, you know pet people on the head, it means literally to

  • instill courage and

  • it played a role in people's own

  • political lives that was really important to me

  • my book 'A Field Guide to Getting Lost'

  • is a much more introspective personal book

  • that has also been meaningful to people

  • and a lot of artists have made art in response to it

  • and stuff - so there's that.

  • You know, I love the swath

  • 'Men Explain Things' has cut through the Universe

  • and....you know

  • and right now the book i'm writing

  • after the memoir comes out

  • that i'm working on now, that'll be out

  • possibly in 2021, maybe in 2022

  • I'm just like madly in love with,

  • but they all have a function and they all represented something -

  • all of them are something I really wanted to say

  • and I really wanted people to think about,

  • so, there's a couple that I think didn't turn out

  • great, but there's a lot of

  • you know...

  • I strongly disagree but...

  • [laughter] You just haven't read those ones yet! [laughter ] Okay...

  • I chose 'Whose Story is This? Old Conflicts, New Chapters'

  • as the book for my book club

  • 'Our Shared Shelf' along with your take

  • on Cinderella.

  • The bit that I loved so much, well

  • I mean you talk about this across your work really - you quote George Orwell

  • in 'The Prevention of Literature' where he writes "totalitarianism

  • demands in fact,

  • the continuous alteration of the past and in

  • the long run, probably

  • demands a disbelief in the very existence of truth."

  • It seems that we've crossed over into this

  • truthless world that Orwell

  • foretold.

  • Do you see a way back?

  • I don't know where we go from here but I have to

  • say that Orwell's sentence could have described

  • hearings this morning for those of you who were listening to them.

  • There was actually a moment where one of those Republicans

  • ...and there's a great old saying like

  • 'if the facts are on your side, argue the facts.

  • If the law is on your side, argue the law and if the

  • facts and law aren't on your side then pound the table with a shoe!'

  • and this Republican said indignantly "are you saying

  • President is lying?" Which is king of like saying

  • 'are you saying water is wet?' which it

  • generally is and,

  • you know and it was really interesting seeing how they

  • were able to use the conventionalities

  • where you can't say 'he's the biggest Goddamn liar

  • you know ever to...

  • 00:12:02,035 --> 00:12:04,905 but it's interesting that basically their defense

  • of Trump is based on

  • the ability to make inconvenient facts

  • go away and to write any story they want

  • and to really kind of

  • divorce themselves from the...

  • enlightenment project

  • of Science, and fact and evidence

  • based reality. I feel like it's a huge

  • struggle, I don't

  • prophecy much, I don't know

  • where we go from here, but I feel as a writer who has trained as a journalist

  • but, you know as a storyteller

  • constantly adhering to the

  • accuracy and precision

  • and factuality as

  • values is really important, and also something that

  • 00:12:44,975 --> 00:12:47,865 all of us do in our lives. Do we share a story that we haven't

  • verified? Do we repeat

  • unsubstantiated stuff? Do we check

  • stuff out? Do we know

  • you know, beyond the kind of

  • soundbite, who the candidates are we are supposed to vote for?

  • and there's a quality of thoughtfulness...I don't know where we go

  • from here. My happiest times I think

  • that social media and...

  • you know personal devices,

  • smart phones - are to our generation,

  • to our era what

  • crack was to the 1980's, suddenly we're the next...

  • that totally caught up a generation that had no

  • kind of preparation for it, no immunities

  • and that a later generation will be like,

  • ...I don't want to go there,

  • I don't need to do this. There's some other way to be,

  • there's some things i'm not going to let go of

  • But the fact that Silicon Valley, because you

  • look at these terrible things happening around the world

  • I mean, why are the rainforests burning in Brazil? because

  • Bolsonaro is President. Why is Bolsonaro

  • President? Well YouTube did a huge amount to

  • aid his rise to power.

  • What is the role of Facebook in the

  • Rohingya genocide in Burma?

  • You know, YouTube is

  • now playing Hindu nationalist videos

  • that are helping this anti Muslim sentiment, you look at

  • so much of this stuff and it is coming from

  • a place that I really used to be proud

  • of being from this San Francisco Bay area which is now Silicon Valley

  • 00:14:17,315 --> 00:14:20,355 and it's an absolute nightmare what they've created

  • and, you know for example

  • Mark Zuckerberg's decision

  • that Donald Trump can rent bald face lies

  • which, because their political advertisements they'll leave alone.

  • So I don't know where we go from here.

  • I'm very excited Elizabeth Warren wants to break up

  • the monopolies that are Google and Facebook and Apple

  • and Amazon and kind of like

  • take a little something back from the oversized billionaires

  • but, I don't know

  • what else we do, the bigger project is cultural.

  • Where do we get our information? How do we communicate?

  • Who do we believe?

  • How do we learn to sort data as data comes out

  • as faster, and harder and weirder than before?

  • I love how you said 'gaslighting is a collective cultural

  • phenomenon, and that

  • being accurate even in our personal encounters and

  • conversations consistently is

  • resistance that matters' and you

  • speak so beautifully as well about lies

  • being kind of, aggressions. Yeah,

  • well I have that, as I called they think they can bully

  • the truth. Where I realized what Brett Kavanaugh

  • - now our Supreme Court justice,

  • Trump, and so many other 'Me Too' men

  • have in common is

  • that they assume they are so powerful

  • they could insist on

  • versions of reality that were convenient for them,

  • that weren't necessarily based on what had actually happened.

  • You see so many of these men who

  • assume they could do whatever they wanted to a woman or a child

  • and then just insisted that it didn't happen - you shouldn't listen

  • to that other person, and who prevailed over and over

  • and over

  • until something shifted and i'm not saying that

  • everything's great now, but something profound has shifted

  • I saw it shift in the 1980's,

  • you know we've had these moments where something cracked open

  • but, we do suffer...

  • and I think this is a democracy problem.

  • In a culture where everyone

  • is valued equally, your version is not more

  • valuable than mine. We don't have

  • a culture in which one category of people are

  • routinely believed in one category

  • or routinely disbelieved

  • which means that we don't have a culture in which

  • officially we're against rape,

  • but we overlook it all the time because men say they didn't do it.

  • So I feel that

  • that democracy part of it is huge.

  • How do we...

  • Whose story is this? How do we create a world in which everyone

  • gets to tell their own story in which people have

  • equal audibility

  • and so a kind of democracy of stories from which everyone gets

  • heard

  • I think is

  • a lot of what the project of feminism, the project

  • of anti-racism,

  • the projects of Intersectionality

  • and inclusion. The projects of getting

  • over heteronormative everything

  • are about, and it is a democratic and it is

  • a storytelling project. You

  • mentioned Brett Kavanaugh in your essay

  • Did you ever think that 28 years

  • after Anita Hill

  • that we would sort of see history

  • repeat itself in a similar situation to that

  • again?

  • I...

  • Anita Hill achieved...because often people are like

  • oh she lost! and the first thing I wanna say

  • I am so grateful to her, I have so much respect for her,

  • she changed the country, she created a

  • space for thousands

  • upon thousands of stories about workplace

  • sexual harassment to appear

  • actual legislation

  • on sexual harassment was passed

  • in 1991 after she spoke up.

  • You know, I sometimes think she casts

  • (you would know about this) cast a spell on Clarence Thomas that

  • silenced him for those 28 years and... [laughter]

  • because he's only spoken ...

  • he's really only spoken up once in this century and it was to defend

  • the right of domestic violence abusers to have guns.

  • Interestingly enough. So, but...

  • there's a way in which what happened with

  • the Kavanaugh hearings were almost worse because

  • it was a more...

  • it wasn't just harassment it was a physical assault,

  • there were, you know...and....

  • you could understand in 1991

  • why these men didn't get it, in

  • 2018

  • the only reason they didn't get it is because it wasn't convenient

  • and they didn't want to...

  • you know, 1991 I remember I actually had great

  • weird experience with handsome bikers

  • in a Denny's on the road North

  • on the i5 from L.A

  • and actually I convinced them that

  • Anita Hill was telling the truth. It was an early victory for me!

  • But people didn't ....

  • all this stuff was really new in 1991, people

  • who had not been sexually

  • harassed in the workplace, and I think a lot of people who had been

  • harassed, knew it happened to them, but might not even have

  • a name for it. Feminists gave us the words 'sexual

  • harassment' in the 1970's,

  • when you don't have a name for something

  • it's very hard to do something about it,

  • it's like not knowing what disease you have, so you don't have a cure.

  • But...

  • the reality of this and how it impacts you and why was really

  • new,

  • in 1991 - it was old in 2018, so I feel like

  • what happened was much worse. You ask a great question:

  • 'How (without idealizing and entrenching anger )

  • can we grant non-white and non-male people

  • an equal right to feeling and expressing it?'

  • I loved that! Can you say more?

  • Yeah, there's been a bunch of stuff suggesting that women's anger

  • is this wonderful, magic, awesome power...

  • and I think on the one hand, women have not been allowed

  • to be angry

  • and it happens to me in my life...

  • I am a feminist

  • but that does not mean my experience in life has been feminist - but quite the

  • opposite at times. Many of them.

  • Like the first 30 years for starters!

  • You know, we often

  • treat women's right to express anger

  • as liberation and there is a

  • liberation being free to express things and having equal

  • access as a democracy of communication

  • but being angry is actually an

  • experience that makes you physically and

  • emotionally miserable. Usually you are

  • shutting down in some way, we used to talk about seeing red,

  • and there is a way in which you

  • no longer are perceptive

  • receptive person. You really

  • don't know ...often you don't know what's going on

  • as a chronic state

  • it can actually cause severe health problems

  • and elevate things that

  • bring on diabetes, hypertension, heart attacks etc

  • I'm not pro-anger

  • and so I think there's a question, do we need more

  • women's anger?

  • I think everyone should have the right to express it

  • as one point, another thing is

  • I think we need less white male anger because

  • it's like an easy go to fun thing for them to do and it's all treated like

  • 'Oh! he's angry

  • there must be a really good reason for it, he's very manly

  • and

  • an action hero when he's angry'

  • I think we should delegitimize some of that

  • rage, but I also think finally,

  • that we call a lot of different things by the same name

  • ....the book before this

  • was called 'Call Them by their True Names', I think language

  • - i'm with Orwell on this - language is really important.

  • I think there's a kind of righteous indignation where it's like

  • 'How dare you do that to those refugee children'

  • which is not like

  • 'I wanna punch you in the face, i'm full of personal rage

  • I want to harm things' It's actually the opposite, like

  • I don't want those children to be harmed, I want to protect them,

  • I wanna dismantle whatever harms them.

  • and so there indignation,

  • there's outrage - like that's completely unacceptable...

  • you know, there's like the sort of short term

  • rage, which is like 'Oh my God you just hit my Mercedes and now

  • i'm going to yell at you until I collect your insurance

  • information - and not my Mercedes you know,

  • the theoretical Mercedes..

  • My Prius C is less exciting!

  • You know, and then

  • there's this kind of like...

  • I am here to solve the problem of these people

  • I'm here to free the slaves, i'm here to get women the vote,

  • i'm here to stop police from shooting black men,

  • i'm here to get women equal pay,

  • i'm here to prevent...

  • to stop

  • discrimination against Trans people - and that can

  • be a kind of fire that

  • drives people, but their not angry at anyone.

  • So we call of these kind of

  • things that I think can be a life purpose and dedication,

  • a kind of defensive

  • protective reaction, which is really a kind of form of

  • love, you know

  • and your adrenaline glands

  • going volcanic - all by the same name and it doesn't help.

  • [inaudible audience member] Thank you, Thank you...

  • Wow! so being more specific ... [laughter]

  • I want to ask you

  • about this -

  • your new memoir which is out in March,

  • which is called 'Recollections of my Non-existence'

  • and you were very kindly earlier telling me

  • about this image of you that's

  • on

  • the cover, which is such a great image.

  • It's a photograph of me at 19 when I was very

  • very thin and very very poor. I kind of made my own way

  • and i'd just moved into my first

  • good apartment, it was $200 a month in a black neighborhood -

  • wonderful black building manager

  • invited me - made it possible for me to move in

  • and that was my home for 25 years, the

  • home in which I became a writer.

  • It's really, it's about voices and

  • voicelessness really, and it's about

  • the kind of experiences

  • of violence against women. I've so often

  • written about it in much more objective and impersonal ways

  • citing statistics, looking at

  • social tendencies etc, my own experience of it

  • of constant sexual harassment and threat

  • as a young woman -

  • which was so intense that I had a few years where I really...

  • 00:24:17,115 --> 00:24:19,995 kind of had pretty intense PTSD

  • behavior, but it's also about

  • what were those circumstances where a man..

  • where you couldn't say no because...

  • that deep voicelessness, you couldn't say...

  • 'You can't do that to me' you couldn't say

  • you know like...

  • 'No, i'm not interested'.

  • Everyone who's female here knows if you say 'No'

  • as soon as you say 'No' to those guys they only get angrier.

  • So I had these experiences of

  • deep voicelessness, where my words did nothing - first of all

  • I couldn't set any boundaries and

  • create the space for me to

  • choose what did and didn't happen to me

  • and then often afterwards people

  • couldn't hear

  • me, didn't believe me etc so there's another kind of

  • voicelessness. So it's really ...

  • the feminism i've been doing for the last dozen years,

  • since I wrote 'Men Explain Things'

  • you know, really for the last 35 years

  • I published my first feminist essay in 1985,

  • you're looking at that and it's like 'yes and

  • I was only a bold theory some people had,

  • that would have happened several years hence! but...

  • I thought..

  • with the recent stuff I was writing about violence against women

  • I realized I was really writing about voicelessness.

  • What happens when no one believes you? What happens when your voice...

  • ...which isn't just the ability to make

  • sounds, but it's ability to use your voice to

  • establish...

  • your path to assert your

  • will to set your boundaries, to bear witness

  • you know your voice is your humanity,

  • your power, your membership in a society

  • and if you don't have it

  • and it happens as much, you know I just read Chanel Miller's

  • amazing memoir. She's the woman who was raped

  • by the Stanford - or sexually assaulted by the Stanford

  • swimmer and..

  • you know, who was anonymous

  • all those years, but she talks about the way that afterwards

  • the whole medical, legal

  • procedure was like a whole other round of being

  • degraded, discredited, devalued,

  • treated as not a competent witness to her own life.

  • So I really wanted to talk about those questions about voice and talk about

  • becoming a writer while having all those

  • extremely ordinary experiences young women do,

  • You know this very specific quest to have a

  • particular kind of voice that means

  • writing books, as well as having the ordinary voice people have in conversation

  • to say 'no that didn't happen, you're not going to gaslight me on that'

  • So, and to also

  • to struggle for other people to become a voice

  • in defense of other people's voices. [right]

  • So, this is literally the first time i've talked

  • in anything vaguely

  • resembling public about it, so

  • you can see i'm still figuring out

  • how to talk about it.

  • It's lovely (as you were saying)

  • you've done so many of these smaller essay books,

  • i'm excited to read something of yours that is

  • more autobiographical.

  • What I do love though about your essays

  • is that they are often so generously personal

  • as well as commentaries on all sorts

  • of different issues. Just to continue

  • with what you were saying though, i'm curious about what happens when we

  • put the word 'sexual' in front of 'violence'

  • or in front of 'harassment' because

  • it somehow seems to...

  • make it...more

  • debatable? or less serious.

  • I've been watching

  • all sorts of men respond

  • to accusations of sexual violence and sexual

  • harassment by saying

  • 'Oh well that never would have happened because I didn't fancy her , or..'

  • There's something about actually removing those words and it's just -

  • sexual violence is just violence, and

  • sexual harassment... It's complicated though

  • because often something consensual becomes non-consensual.

  • Something non-violent becomes violent.

  • I want to just before we...

  • I don't know how much time we've got, I want to make sure I fit this in but,

  • As someone who has played a princess in a fairytale

  • I loved that you re-wrote

  • Cinderella. You call it 'Cinderella

  • Liberator' which is such an amazing

  • title. I read in the afterword

  • about the personal history of your Grandmothers

  • and, were they

  • inspiration for this?

  • Not directly, the actual inspiration for it is not two generations

  • back, but two generations forward.

  • I am the Great Aunt of the most

  • magnificently feisty young person named

  • Ella.

  • But it really began with...

  • you know, I found a Cinderella illustration

  • that I thought was wonderful and I turned it over

  • and it had this very short text on it from

  • the one telling of the fairytale where

  • the fairy Godmother says 'What shall we do for

  • a coachman?' and

  • Cinderella says 'I will get the rat trap'

  • and it's so great because

  • it was...an

  • epiphany I thought first of all Cinderella

  • is an active collaborator

  • in all this transformation, she's not just the lucky one the Fairy

  • Godmother came down and did everything for

  • you know, secondly the trans...

  • I think the

  • conventional version of Cinderella is it's about getting a Prince

  • and it's...

  • just those two

  • or three sentences I thought

  • No, this is a story about becoming

  • about transformation and the Fairy

  • Godmother is an agent of transformation, but so is Cinderella,

  • and then I was like, well how is this...

  • you know if you foreground that all these things becoming other

  • things

  • what happens if you make it, and you know

  • i'm not a huge princess fan.

  • I'm not sure how you feel about princesses having played one or two?

  • I have very mixed feelings. [Yeah, yeah]

  • You play them very nicely. [thank you]

  • I actually took a Great Niece to that movie

  • [thank you]

  • 00:30:16,675 --> 00:30:18,165 you know, so I was like 'What's Cinderella for our time?'

  • and it's like 'What does it look like...

  • what is the point of transformation?

  • It's liberation. What does liberation look like?

  • for this girl who's unvalued and exploited and

  • overworked, and it's also very fun to realize

  • that the name 'Cinderella' contains the

  • name 'Ella', you know Cinder-Ella, so

  • i've written a book for Ella, her younger sister

  • is getting the next one which is going to be

  • a Sleeping Beauty re-write. Oh Amazing! I was going to ask if

  • you were planning to do more. Yeah because also Arthur Rackham

  • did fantastic silhouette images for

  • those too. I have to... can I just hold it up? [yes]

  • because I love it so much. Will I burn my sleeve off

  • with these genuine candles? I love these silhouette

  • illustrations so much, because it

  • felt like they were sort of less racially determined that

  • you know, a kid from Iran or Brazil

  • could look at these and they could feel like 'this could

  • be me, this could be my story too' and they're

  • also just incredibly beautiful [yes, they are] and out

  • of copyright because they turned 100 this year.

  • I love that her happy ending is that

  • she becomes the truest version of herself,

  • that feels... Isn't that everyone's happy ending?

  • It is often not the ending that's told, but yes! [yes]

  • I'm curious to ask the truest version of yourself,

  • but that's going too far. Shall I just ask

  • [laughter] The truest version of myself?

  • Gosh! I mean... To be

  • continued in later years over other beverages.

  • Yes! to be continued! [yes! yes!] I wanted to

  • ask you about Little Women, you have a new movie coming out, do you not? I do...

  • I do have a new movie coming out, and it is...

  • Because it's also, i's a bit like Cinderella Liberator

  • in that it's a feminist retelling of a classic.

  • Yes, it is...

  • Louisa May Alcott....

  • what I love about

  • Greta's retelling of this story

  • is that she addresses what is often very controversial

  • about Little Women, which is that a lot of

  • readers, a lot of big fans of Louisa

  • feel that she was forced by her publisher

  • to write an ending that was not the ending for the story

  • that she actually really wanted for it,

  • and Greta's handling of that

  • whereby, I don't want to ruin it but,

  • Greta's handling of that, and the

  • way that she uses her script

  • to play out

  • almost

  • three different endings for the story, so that the audience get's to

  • see what it would look like in multiple

  • different versions, and you don't really know

  • which one is the real...

  • the version that she chooses for this story.

  • I remember finishing the script and just putting it down

  • and going 'That's Genius!' it's

  • so clever what she does [wow] and...

  • so i'm very proud to part of a

  • retelling of the story that I hope -

  • if Louisa can hear us - is...

  • an honoring of maybe part of it that

  • she maybe didn't get to say, or get to tell.

  • So, yeah it's beautiful

  • and...

  • yeah, thank you for asking me about it. When I saw the trailer

  • and i'm trying to figure out which girls - there's a lot

  • girls from 2 to

  • 17 or 18 in my life, which ones am I gonna round up to go see it. [yeah]

  • I mean I love the trailer, I mean very similar to what address in Cinderella Liberator

  • is that...is all

  • the publisher seems to care about is 'Well, which of the guys does choose?'

  • you know that's really, the ultimate thing that we want to know

  • is which man does she end up with

  • and...

  • Saoirse's response to that in the trailer as Jo is

  • is so brilliant, which is just kind of this

  • 'Oh my goodness, how am I going to stomach the

  • patience for dealing with

  • all of this' I didn't realize

  • how long I felt like i'd been waiting in a story

  • or in this specific story to

  • to hear the step sisters

  • apologize and reconcile with

  • Cinderella. It's secretly kind of a Buddhist

  • Cinderella too. I was wondering about that!

  • I was reading it and I was like

  • I smell it! Well I also felt like

  • the step sisters,

  • I hate when the sisters are portrayed as funny looking

  • as the like

  • we don't really have to like pretty people and

  • good people are pretty and pretty people are good and...

  • everyone else can go to hell,

  • and so we changed it

  • yeah, but...

  • You know it was really interesting this kind of a problem, like

  • how do you take this setup

  • and it sounds a little bit like what Greta's done with Little Women,

  • how do you take this setup and get some place else than the usual

  • you know...

  • Cinderella gets her man,

  • everyone else gets punished etc [yep]

  • and clearly the step mother is a Buddhist hungry ghost

  • and, you know

  • but I also identified her as like the voice we all hear

  • in our own heads, like I can't give you anything

  • because I need more, it's mine, this is all about me

  • and, you notice the step

  • sisters go off and do their

  • glamour glitter thing.

  • There was one thing I also, just

  • while waiting - that I wanted to share that Rebecca bought for me

  • as a gift, that I was so moved by,

  • which is that she's been working on - i'm losing my mic -

  • She's been working on a map, a tube map

  • of New York, but all of the

  • names on it are named after famous women

  • instead of famous men,

  • and it's profound.

  • The minute I looked at it I immediately teared up...

  • Tell me why?

  • Do I know why I teared up?

  • Because it's not something that I...

  • I get to encounter in our culture

  • and our society. I don't gt to see women

  • being celebrated in the same way.

  • Well you call it a tube map because

  • you were a Londoner before you were a New Yorker [I know! It's a subway map]

  • But let's...we should do London!

  • Oh! Please can we do London? Amazing!

  • Wow! That just happened. I have a cartographer and a designer,

  • we just have to come up with the names of...how many tube stops are there on

  • the underground? about...

  • at least that many probably? Well...

  • you know what? maybe not... Which tube stop do you see

  • yourself as, Emma? [laughter - Oh my Goodness] Wow...

  • I grew up in Islington , so... Where?

  • Islington

  • There you go! Yeah that would be very meaningful to me

  • But you cited those two

  • beautiful quotes that two other women who had similar reactions

  • to the reaction that I had when I looked at this map said.

  • Can you please repeat them because... Yeah...

  • yeah the city of women map was part of my 2016

  • New York city atlas, but it's kind of a break out map

  • you know, it's like the singer that's gone solo.

  • We distributed it separately

  • because it just

  • resonated with people and it was so exciting for me to do.

  • one of the thing's that shocking is

  • I've lived my whole life in a manscape, I grew up in a town

  • named after a man, in a county named after a man,

  • on a continent named after a man

  • and...almost all

  • places

  • are named after men whether it's mountains,

  • rivers, buildings, bridges...

  • Cities, States, we have some exceptions

  • we have a couple of English Queens in

  • Maryland in Virginia and a few other things, but it's really

  • a male world, and I think it tells little

  • boys you can grow...like, it's like the fact that most

  • monuments in New York city only until

  • very recently had only

  • 5 statues of historic women, you know

  • and hundreds upon hundreds of men, and so there's nothing

  • for girls that said like 'you can be

  • a general, a hero...

  • you know etc and it really....

  • I think it's one of the infinite things that aggrandize men

  • and withered away the space for women to be,

  • but so I taught at Columbia when this map was coming out

  • and I did a field trip with some students around New York.

  • I showed them the map and I said 'How would your

  • life be different if you - and these

  • mostly not white people either - How would you life be different

  • if you lived in a city named after people

  • like you? Where everything was named after people like you?

  • and these

  • two young women said the most amazing things to me.

  • One of them said

  • I have

  • slumped over all my life, I would

  • stand up straight in a city named after people like me,

  • and the other one just said, would a man

  • dare sexually harass me on a street named after

  • a great woman?

  • and it was really...

  • they were so smart and so right,

  • the subtlety

  • of how this changes our conduct to be

  • in spaces that aggrandizes or not,

  • and Harlem named a bunch of streets after black

  • people, but they're all male.

  • You know the great Harriet Tubman

  • statue at the North end of Central Park, but there's still...

  • we still live in a manscape and it was

  • really....changing that was so

  • exhilarating for me. We did

  • a new version that's got Alexandria

  • Ocasio-Cortez and some other people added,

  • and I don't see why we shouldn't do a London one, I think it would be really fun.

  • I would love that! okay!

  • okay, if you're ready to become a printer and distributor

  • we're ready to go too! For Sure! I will

  • figure it out!, undoubtedly! Yes, see this

  • known as the famous conversation in which

  • cornered Emma and made her commit to print

  • projects. [A London tube map!] Or this will be the

  • fairytale in which I turned her into tube stop! [laughter] I feel very...

  • I am not a tube stop, i'm a human being. [laughter]

  • I feel very uncoerced...

  • Thank you so much for all of your

  • work! Thank you, I say...

  • so at the end of the letter I write for my book club

  • 'We all have all different sorts of Mothers and

  • you have intellectually, politically, spiritually

  • in all sorts of ways and my understanding, have

  • been a mother to me, so i'm very, very grateful to you

  • and thank you! I think of myself more often as an Aunt, but

  • that is the loveliest thing [laughter] anybody said

  • Good.

  • That sort of

  • nonlinear nurture of it, but

  • Thank you so much! Pleasure! Thank you, and thank you to everyone who came

  • I would be proud to be another mother, I'm sure you have many..

  • I know you have an actual one and many others.

  • Yes, I do, I have many - and a wonderful Mother, i'm very lucky!

  • Right. Thank you! and thank you all! [applause]

Hello Emma! Rebecca! Lovely to be hanging out with you!

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