Their agreement now gives the pope of final say over the appointment of thumb, but Beijing is the one who gets to come up with the choices.

Chinese authorities had previously selected bishops, without the say of the Vatican and a division formed between state sanctioned clergy and underground bishops who operated outside state control.

The former bishop of Hong Kong, Cardinal Joseph Zen, has spoken up about this ah, pro Democrat.

He has expressed concern over the church's engagement with China.

Here's DW interview with Cardinal 10 China and the Vatican recently renewed a secretive agreement signed two years ago.

It allowed both Beijing and the Holy See a say in appointing bishops in China.

Former Hong Kong Bishop Cardinal Joseph San accused the secretary of state, Cardinal Parolin, off betraying the 12 million Catholic populations to appease the communist regime.

They always say a bad agreement is better than no agreement.

I cannot understand a bad agreement means agreement, which is immoral, Uh, which is against our faith.

Uh, how can it be better than no agreement.

Incredible.

So it is a betrayal.

Uh, I suspect that Palaly wants thio to have this, uh, diplomatic relation reestablished.

Uh, but that's very bad because that's a political thing.

It's not a religious way.

Our religion eso we first of all is our faith.

Cardinal Sin journeyed to Rome earlier this month in hopes to meet the pope, but in vain.

He is worried that the underground charge in China will face even more.

Prosecution at state run Church gained legitimacy from this secret agreement the two years since the agreement The things went wrong, Wrong, very wrong.

Uh, because the underground received no support from the Vatican, the older bishop's I and the Holy See don't give new bishops to the underground.

They give many bishops to the official church.

Uh, now individual church, all the bishops are legitimate.

Uh, you made them legitimate, But they are still bad people there, huh?

And so the underground fear abundant betrayed because they are those faithful to the authority off the Pope.

Cardinal San was born in Shanghai 88 years ago.

He came to Hong Kong in 1948 just before the Communists took power in China.

He thinks the Vatican is on the wrong track off Ostpolitik.

The appeasement policy towards Beijing.

The Pope, John Paul.

The second the probability.

They had very different experience.

Uh, they lived under Nazism then.

The communism from Russia and the pope comes from South America.

It's understandable that Pope Francis had sympathy for the Communist because communists in the South America are good people.

They come out to defend the poor people under the totalitarian, uh, military government.

Uh, but now China is under the Communist.

Uh, the Communists are the persecutor, huh?

Ostpolitik?

Uh, actually, it was a failure in the in Europe, but now they use a method for for China.

So it was a disaster.

He's been an outspoken critic of the communist regime over the years that could put him in race under the national security law imposed by Beijing.

But he refused to remain silent.

I would be a liar.

E I'm not worried.

Uh, everybody's worried to lose his freedom, huh?

On board.

But that's okay, because, uh, you see way believe in God.

Uh, when God gives you a duty, he's going to give you also the strength, uh, to do that duty.

Okay, for more, we have Martin Jakti, W's religion correspondent, joining us Martin Cardinals in just, uh, talked about his point of view.

And it does seem as if it's morally complex for the Vatican to be engaging with a country like China with its human rights track record.

What is the point of view of Pope Francis?

I think that there is a political concern, and that political concern is How is it that one deals with a government that has had a rough going with the religious group that essentially the Vatican leads or represents?

And the second question is the moral question.

How is it that the Vatican should position itself in relation with a country that has actually a very well established record off human right violations?

The position off this Vatican.

It's actually one that is fairly understandable, which is that they concentrate on engagement because they think that actually disengagement leaves the communities, the Catholic communities in China at a very serious disadvantage.

So the position is not perfect.

But that is probably because it is impossible in such a situation to actually produce a perfect solution.

The issue here is if you have people on the ground that are dependent on the good offices off the Vatican, and then the Vatican has to engage with the Chinese government.

Obviously, this doesn't please everybody and cardinals, and it's one off them.

Uh, the U.

S is another actor in the same position.

Well, you just mentioned the United States.

Cardinal Zen had tried to gain an audience at the Vatican with the pope.

He didn't get one.

Another person who tried to meet with the pope was US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and he wasn't able to gain an audience.

What was that about?

Well, I think that you know the issue with cardinals and on and but much more pronounced with Mike Pompeo.

It's that they come into the Vatican or they come with conversations with the Vatican.

Uh, essentially in the middle off, what are very public battles between China and, uh, regions?

I mean, in the in the in the immediate geographical space, but also sort of an electoral battle in the case of the US, and this is something that the Vatican systematically, and it's not only this Pope has essentially avoided, which is getting involved in what are essentially public campaign.

So this Vatican, it's one, this pope.

It's one that has done most off his policy, his policy work specifically in issues of international affairs.

Behind closed doors.

We find out only months later exactly what is that was happening.

So I think that the reaction of census is correct to say that they were parallel.

I mean, the Vatican was avoiding the spotlight into which cardinals and on Mike Pompeo wanted to pull the Vatican in.

One of the things Cardinal Den was talking about was the situation of the climate in China.

And it is a fact that there are bishops that the Vatican recognizes before this agreement from two years ago that the Chinese government does not recognize and these bishops have been operating underground.

They've suffered that's right for their beliefs.

And in fact, my understanding is at least one of them, to my knowledge, was arrested this year.

He was 70.

He is 70 years old.

Do you feel like some people at least feel as if the Vatican has turned its back on their most faithful in China?

I think that there is.

There is, you know, justification.

Probably in the sense that if China is the government, I mean it's actually treating this way.

Catholic communities, and particularly bishops and priests appointed by the Vatican without essentially certification off the off the Chinese Communist Party.

Uh, then dealing with the Chinese government is essentially a form of betrayal.

But I think that this leads us in a way back to the first question, which is how is the Vatican to calculate how to protect this communities other than to some degree engaging the Communist Party?

So I mean, it's quite clear that simply getting out off the stage and letting the Chinese government do as they please, uh, it's no solution at all.

It might be very satisfying.

Morally.

It might be very good to be able to say, Well, we have done the right thing in terms of principles, but it leaves all of those people that you just mentioned a very precarious situation.

Now we know Cardinal Zen's point of view and feelings.

Um, is there controversy among the church leaders about Pope Francis's decision?

Most certainly, Most certainly.

I mean, it's not It's not, it's not.

It's not a decision.

I mean, the extension off the agreement with China that was taken lightly.

Also because there is a very strong internal fight which actually pities bits.

Sorry.

Pits, Um, conservatives within the church against many of the people that circulate around the helps the pope's fear.

So in a way, what Pompeo And now, then then has been saying for really quite a long time, especially in the context of battles that politically have to do a lot with China, as in the U.

S.

Uh, you know, really give ammunition to a lot off the people that are standing there criticizing the Pope.

Martin.

Jack.

Thank you.

My pleasure.