Sheryl Sandberg: First time back. Nice to see everyone. It's always so nice to look out

雪莉·桑德伯格：是的 很高興見到大家，總是很高興

and see so many women.

可以見到這麼多女性聚在一起

It's so not my regular experience, as I know anyone else's.

這不像是我平常會有的經驗 我想其他人也是

PM: So when we first started talking about, maybe the subject wouldn't be social media,

我們第一次談話時 或許主題不算是社群媒體

which we assumed it would be, but that you had very much on your mind

我們以為會是，但妳有許多其它想法

the missing leadership positions, particularly in the sector of technology and social media.

失落的領導位階 特別是科技與社群媒體

But how did that evolve for you as a thought, and end up being the TED Talk that you gave?

但這些是如何讓妳產生想法 最後成為妳上次在 TED 談話的主題呢？

SS: So I was really scared to get on this stage and talk about women,

我本來很害怕在這裡討論女性議題

because I grew up in the business world, as I think so many of us did.

因為我在商場上打滾 我想我們很多人都是如此

You never talk about being a woman, because someone might notice that you're a woman, right?

妳不曾談論身為女性這件事 因為這會讓人發覺妳是一位女性

They might notice. Or worse, if you say "woman," people on the other end of the table

他們可能會察覺，或者更糟 妳提到「女性」時，桌子另一頭的人

think you're asking for special treatment, or complaining.

會覺得妳在要求 特別的待遇或是在抱怨

Or worse, about to sue them. And so I went through -- (Laughter)

或者更糟的情況是要告發他們 所以我在我... （笑聲）

Right? I went through my entire business career,

是吧？我在我整個職涯中

and never spoke about being a woman, never spoke about it publicly.

從不在公開場合提及身為女性這件事

But I also had noticed that it wasn't working.

但我發覺得這樣是沒有效果的

I came out of college over 20 years ago, and I thought

我二十年前從大學離開就在想

that all of my peers were men and women, all the people above me were all men,

我的同事有男有女 但老闆都是男的

but that would change,

我以為這種狀況會改變

because your generation had done such an amazing job fighting for equality,

因為妳們這一代為了平等 做了許多驚人的貢獻

equality was now ours for the taking. And it wasn't.

我們得到平等待遇，但沒有改變

Because year after year, I was one of fewer and fewer,

一年過了一年，我是少數中的少數

and now, often the only woman in a room.

現在是辦公室裡唯一的女性

And I talked to a bunch of people about,

我跟一些人提到

should I give a speech at TEDWomen about women, and they said, oh no, no.

我應該在 TEDWomen 提到女性嗎？ 他們都說不要不要

It will end your business career. You cannot be a serious business executive

這會毀了妳的工作 妳無法同時是執行長

and speak about being a woman. You'll never be taken seriously again.

又談論女性議題 這樣沒有人會再把妳當一回事

But fortunately, there were the few, the proud -- like you -- who told me I should give the speech,

但幸運地，還有些人，值得驕傲的人 像是妳，告訴我應該談論這議題

and I asked myself the question Mark Zuckerberg might --

而我問自己一個問題 這也是馬克·祖克柏

the founder of Facebook and my boss --

臉書創辦人，我的老闆

asks all of us, which is, what would I do if I wasn't afraid?

也可能會問我們的問題 那就是如果我不退縮的話會怎麼做？

And the answer to what would I do if I wasn't afraid is I would get on the TED stage,

而答案是，如果我不退縮 我就會站在 TED 的講台上

and talk about women, and leadership. And I did, and survived. (Applause)

談論女性議題和領導力 我做到了，而且活過來了（掌聲）

PM: I would say, not only survived. I'm thinking of that moment, Sheryl,

我想說，不單只是活過來 雪莉，我想到當時

when you and I were standing backstage together, and you turned to me,

我們站在後台的時候，妳轉向我

and you told me a story.

跟我說了一個故事

And I said -- very last minute -- you know, you really should share that story.

在最後一刻，我跟妳說 妳真的應該分享這個故事

SS: Oh, yeah. PM: What was that story?

沒錯 那是什麼故事？

SS: Well, it's an important part of the journey. So I had -- TEDWomen --

那是旅程中很重要的一部分 TEDWomen 一開始

the original one was in D.C. -- so I live here, so I had gotten on a plane the day before,

是在華盛頓特區，我住在這裡 所以我前一天就要搭飛機過去

and my daughter was three, she was clinging to my leg: "Mommy, don't go."

我3歲女兒則是纏著我的腿 說：「媽咪不要走」

And Pat's a friend, and so, not related to the speech I was planning on giving,

帕特則是我的朋友 所以這跟我要演講的無關

which was chock full of facts and figures, and nothing personal,

演講是關於事實和圖表 不是私人的經驗

I told Pat the story. I said, well, I'm having a hard day.

我跟帕特講了這個故事 說我有個難過的一天

Yesterday my daughter was clinging to my leg, and "Don't go."

昨天我女兒纏著我腿叫我別走

And you looked at me and said, you have to tell that story.

而妳看著我叫我要講這段故事

I said, on the TED stage? Are you kidding?

我說，在 TED 台上嗎？ 妳開玩笑的吧？

I'm going to get on a stage and admit my daughter was clinging to my leg?

我要站在講台上 然後承認我女兒纏著我的腿？

And you said yes, because if you want to talk about getting more women into leadership roles,

妳說，對，如果妳要讓更多女性 扮演領導者的角色

you have to be honest about how hard it is.

妳必須承認這是有多困難的

And I did. And I think that's a really important part of the journey.

而我就真的講了這故事 那真的是旅程中很重要的一部分

The same thing happened when I wrote my book. I started writing the book. I wrote a first chapter,

同樣的事在我寫書的時候又發生一次 我開始寫書，寫了第一章

I thought it was fabulous. It was chock-full of data and figures,

我認為寫得很好 都是數據和圖表

I had three pages on matrilineal Maasai tribes, and their sociological patterns.

我有三頁在講 母系社會的馬賽部落和其社會習性

My husband read it and he was like, this is like eating your Wheaties. (Laughter)

我老公讀了之後他覺得 這像是在吃威迪（Wheaties）麥片 （笑聲）

No one -- and I apologize to Wheaties if there's someone -- no one, no one will read this book.

沒有人 -- 如果這裡有吃威迪麥片的人 我先說抱歉 -- 沒有人會讀這本書的

And I realized through the process that I had to be more honest and more open,

在過程中，我發現 我必須要更坦白更放得開

and I had to tell my stories. My stories of still not feeling as self-confident as I should,

我必須要講我自己的故事 在很多情況下對自己不夠有自信的故事

in many situations. My first and failed marriage. Crying at work.

我第一次失敗的婚姻 工作時掉眼淚

Felling like I didn't belong there, feeling guilty to this day.

感覺我不屬於那裡、至今仍感到內咎

And part of my journey, starting on this stage, going to "Lean In," going to the foundation,

我的旅程某部分從這個台上開始 一直到《挺身而進》出版，再到基金會

is all about being more open and honest about those challenges,

全部都是更開闊 更坦然地去面對這些挑戰

so that other women can be more open and honest,

所以其他女性也能 更開闊更坦然地去面對

and all of us can work together towards real equality.

我們可以一起朝向真實的平等前進

PM: I think that one of the most striking parts about the book,

我想書裡最令人震驚的是

and in my opinion, one of the reasons it's hit such a nerve and is resonating around the world,

我認為，這本書能切中要害 在全世界引起共鳴

is that you are personal in the book, and that you do make it clear that,

某個原因是妳在書裡分享私人的經驗 而且講得很清楚

while you've observed some things that are very important for other women to know,

妳發現某些事 是其他女性也必須知道的

that you've had the same challenges that many others of us have,

妳也和其他人面對相同的挑戰

as you faced the hurdles and the barriers and possibly the people who don't believe the same.

妳面對的障礙和困難 可能其他人並不相信是一致的

So talk about that process: deciding you'd go public with the private part,

跟我們談談這個過程： 妳決定公開妳私人的生活

and then you would also put yourself in the position of something of an expert

讓自己成為

on how to resolve those challenges.

克服挑戰的專家

SS: After I did the TED Talk, what happened was --

我在 TED 演講之後，接下來

you know, I never really expected to write a book, I'm not an author, I'm not a writer,

我沒有想過會去寫一本書 我並不是一位作家

and it was viewed a lot, and it really started impacting people's lives.

但很多人看了這本書 也開始影響很多人的生活

I got this great --- one of the first letters I got was from a woman

我覺得很棒 -- 我收到的第一封信 是來自一位女性

who said that she was offered a really big promotion at work, and she turned it down,

說她的工作獲得升遷 但她拒絕了

and she told her best friend she turned it down, and her best friend said,

她跟她的好朋友說她拒絕了 她好朋友說

you really need to watch this TED Talk.

妳真的應該去看看這個 TED 演講

And so she watched this TED Talk, and she went back the next day, she took the job,

她去看了 TED 演講 第二天回去上班，她接受了升遷

she went home, and she handed her husband the grocery list. (Laughter)

她回家後 把購物清單交給她老公（笑聲）

And she said, I can do this.

她說，我也可以做得到

And what really mattered to me -- it wasn't only women in the corporate world,

對我真正有意義的是 它不只影響在公司中的女性

even though I did hear from a lot of them, and it did impact a lot of them,

雖然回應有很多是來自商場上的女性 也確實深深影響她們

it was also people of all different circumstances.

但它也影響到所有不同環境下的人

There was a doctor I met who was an attending physician at Johns Hopkins,

我遇到一位在約翰·霍普金斯的主治醫師

and he said that until he saw my TED Talk, it never really occurred to him

他說在他看 TED 之前 他從沒發現

that even though half the students in his med school classes were women,

雖然他醫學課有一半女學生

they weren't speaking as much as the men as he did his rounds.

她們卻不像其他男生踴躍發言

So he started paying attention, and as he waited for raised hands, he realized the men's hands were up.

之後他開始留意，等學生舉手 結果他發現舉手的確實都是男生

So he started encouraging the women to raise their hands more,

所以他開始鼓勵女生舉手

and it still didn't work.

但沒有什麼效果

So he told everyone, no more hand raising, I'm cold-calling.

他就告訴大家 不用舉手了，用叫名字的

So he could call evenly on men and women. And what he proved to himself was that

他就男女均等的叫名 結果他發現

the women knew the answers just as well or better,

女生回答的跟男生一樣好，或更好

and he was able to go back to them and tell them that.

他決定要回課堂上告訴大家這件事

And then there was the woman, stay-at-home mom, lives in a really difficult neighborhood,

還有一位家庭主婦 住在非常糟的社區

with not a great school, she said that TED Talk -- she's never had a corporate job,

不是好的學區 她從沒在公司行號上班過

but that TED Talk inspired her to go to her school and fight for a better teacher for her child.

但 TED 演講啟發她 讓她去學校替小孩爭取好的老師

And I guess it was part of was finding my own voice.

我猜這像是找回自己的發聲權

And I realized that other women and men could find their voice through it,

我發覺其他女性和男性 也能找回自己的發聲權

which is why I went from the talk to the book.

這也是為什麼我從演講變成出書

PM: And in the book, you not only found your voice, which is clear and strong in the book,

妳在書裡很明白的強調 妳不只是找回妳的發聲權

but you also share what you've learned --

妳也分享了妳的經驗

the experiences of other people in the lessons.

在這些過程中其他人的經驗

And that's what I'm thinking about in terms of putting yourself in a --

這讓我想到，把妳自己放在...

you became a sort of expert in how you lean in.

妳像是成為挺身而進的專家

So what did that feel like, and become like in your life?

這是什麼的感覺？ 對妳人生有什麼改變？

To launch not just a book, not just a best-selling, best-viewed talk,

不只是出版一本最暢銷的書 或最多人瀏覽的演講

but a movement, where people began to literally describe their actions at work as,

也是一個運動 讓人們開始可以說自己在職場上

I'm leaning in.

我挺身而進

SS: I mean, I'm grateful, I'm honored, I'm happy, and it's the very beginning.

我很感激，很榮幸，也很開心 這只是一個開始

So I don't know if I'm an expert, or if anyone is an expert. I certainly have done a lot of research.

我不知道我是不是專家，或誰是專家 但我做了很多研究

I have read every study, I have pored over the materials,

我研讀每一個報告 探究每一份資料

and the lessons are very clear. Because here's what we know:

而我學到的是顯而易見的 因為我們知道：

What we know is that stereotypes are holding women back from leadership roles all over the world.

刻版印象讓全世界的女性 難以坐上領導者的位子

It's so striking. "Lean In" is very global, I've been all over the world,

這很驚人 「挺身而進」 是全球化的

talking about it, and -- cultures are so different.

我在世界各地演講 各地文化差異很大

Even within our own country, to Japan, to Korea, to China, to Asia, Europe,

就算在國內，在日本、韓國 中國、亞洲、歐洲

they're so different. Except for one thing: gender.

文化都不一樣 但有一項例外：性別議題

All over the world, no matter what our cultures are,

在這個世界上 不管我們是什麼文化

we think men should be strong, assertive, aggressive, have voice;

我們都認為男性應該是強壯的 決斷的、積極的、有發言權的

we think women should speak when spoken to, help others.

我們認為女性只有在被允許時才發言

Now we have, all over the world,

在全世界我們都會說

women are called "bossy." There is a word for "bossy,"

女性很「跋扈」 在所有言語中

for little girls, in every language there's one.

都有形容小女生「跋扈」 的字眼

It's a word that's pretty much not used for little boys,

這是一個幾乎不會用在小男生身上的字眼

because if a little boy leads, there's no negative word for it,

因為小男生位居領導時 沒有負面的意義

it's expected. But if a little girl leads, she's bossy.

那是預期中的 但小女生位居領導時，她就是跋扈

Now I know there aren't a lot of men here, but bear with me.

我知道現場沒有太多男性 不過還是先忍耐一下

If you're a man, you'll have to represent your gender.

如果你是男性 就請你代表全體的男生

Please raise your hand if you've been told you're too aggressive at work.

如果你在工作上被說過太積極的，請舉手

(Laughter) There's always a few, it runs about five percent. Okay, get ready, gentlemen.

（笑聲） 總是會有一些的，大約是 5% 好，男士們請準備好

If you're a woman, please raise your hand if you've ever been told you're too aggressive at work.

女士們，如果妳在工作上 被說過太積極的，請舉手

(Laughter) That is what audiences have said in every country in the world,

（笑聲） 這就是每個國家都有的現象

and it's deeply supported by the data.

而且數據可以有效證明

Now, do we think women are more aggressive than men? Of course not.

我們真的認為女性比男性更積極？ 當然不是

It's just that we judge them through a different lens,

這只是我們對女性用不同的標準

and a lot of the character traits that you must exhibit to perform at work, to get results, to lead,

在工作上表現突出，領導他人的人

are ones that we think, in a man, he's a boss,

是男性，我們認為他是老闆

and in a woman, she's bossy.

是女性，我們認為她很跋扈

And the good news about this is that we can change this by acknowledging it.

好消息是，我們可以 因為認知這件事而改變它

One of the happiest moments I had in this whole journey is,

在整個旅程中，我最開心的事是

after the book came out, I stood on a stage with John Chambers, the CEO of Cisco.

在書出版之後，我和思科 (Cisco) 的執行長 約翰·錢伯斯 (Chambers) 一同站在台上

He read the book. He stood on a stage with me, he invited me in front of his whole management team,

他看了這本書，他邀請我與他同台 站在他經營團隊的前面

men and women, and he said, I thought we were good at this. I thought I was good at this.

有男有女，他說，我以為 我們在這方面做得很好了

And then I read this book, and I realized that we -- my company --

但我看了妳的書之後 我才發覺我們 -- 整個公司 --

we have called all of our senior women too aggressive,

會覺得資深女性員工太過積極

and I'm standing on this stage, and I'm sorry.

而我現在站在這台上要說，我很抱歉

And I want you to know we're never going to do it again.

我要妳們知道 我們再也不會這樣認為了

PM: Can we send that to a lot of other people that we know? (Applause)

我們可以把這件事 告訴我們認識的每個人吧？（掌聲）

SS: And so John is doing that because he believes it's good for his company,

約翰這樣做是因為 他相信這對他公司是件好事

and so this kind of acknowledgement of these biases can change it.

所以認知到有這樣的偏差 是可以改變現況的

And so next time you all see someone call a little girl "bossy,"

所以下次你們看到有人 稱小女生 「跋扈」 時

you walk right up to that person, big smile, and you say,

你要微笑地走向那個人，跟他說

"That little girl's not bossy. That little girl has executive leadership skills." (Laughter)

「那個女生不是跋扈 她是有領導才能的。」（笑聲）

PM: I know that's what you're telling your daughter. SS: Absolutely.

我知道妳是這樣教導妳女兒的 當然

PM: And you did focus in the book -- and the reason, as you said, in writing it,

妳也在書中強調這點 而妳提到原因是

was to create a dialogue about this.

妳想要引發這個議題的對話

I mean, let's just put it out there, face the fact that women are --

我是說，先把這個放一邊 正視關於女性

in a time when we have more open doors, and more opportunities --

-- 我們有愈來愈多的管道和機會 --

are still not getting to the leadership positions.

但仍然很難達到領導的位階

So in the months that have come since the book,

所以這本書發表後的幾個月中

in which "Lean In" focused on that and said,

《挺身而進》 著重的部分

here are some of the challenges that remain, and many of them we have to own within ourselves

仍舊存在很多挑戰 很多是我們必須承認

and look at ourselves. What has changed?

必須檢視的，這些改變了嗎？

Have you seen changes?

妳有見到任何改變嗎？

SS: Well, there's certainly more dialogue, which is great.

已經開啟了很多對話，這是很好的

But what really matters to me, and I think all of us, is action.

但真正重要的是，我認為 我們要有所行動

So everywhere I go, CEOs, they're mostly men, say to me,

每到一個地方，執行長告訴我 大部分都是男性

you're costing me so much money

他們說妳讓我花費太多錢了

because all the women want to be paid as much as the men.

因為所有女性 都想跟男性拿一樣高的薪水

And to them I say, I'm not sorry at all. (Laughter)

而我回說 我一點也不覺得有什麼不對（笑聲）

At all. I mean, the women should be paid as much as the men.

一點也不，女性應該 跟男性領一樣的薪水

Everywhere I go, women tell me they ask for raises.

我所到之處 女性跟我說她們要求加薪

Everywhere I go, women say they're getting better relationships with their spouses,

我所到之處 女性跟我說她們和另一半的關係更好了

asking for more help at home, asking for the promotions they should be getting at work,

在家裡要求更多的協助 在工作上要求應得的待遇

and importantly, believing it themselves. Even little things.

重要的是，她們肯相信 即使只是小小的事情

One of the governors of one of the states told me that he didn't realize that more women were, in fact,

某一位政府官員跟我說 他沒有查覺到現實上

literally sitting on the side of the room, which they are,

很多女性都坐在房間的一角

and now he made a rule that all the women on his staff need to sit at the table.

現在他訂了規則 他所屬的所有女性都要坐在會議桌旁

The foundation I started along with the book "Lean In"

我跟這本書《挺身而進》發表時 同時成立的基金會

helps women, or men, start circles -- small groups,

幫助了女性和男性 發起了小團體