You liar!

You lying liar who lies!

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Welcome to the only show that's less honest than your tax

returns.

Scam School, the only show dedicated

to social engineering at the bar and on the street.

I'm your host, Brian Brushwood, and this

is a subject I have wanted to cover

since day one of Scam School.

It's finally happening-- we are starting

a two-part interview with Clark Freshman, professor of law

and expert in facial expressions and lying.

Oh my god, you have no idea how excited

I am to cover this topic, finally.

We are here with none other than Clark Freshman, professor

of law and what, lie detection?

What's your exact category?

Professor of law.

We're all professors of law and nothing else.

OK, but you are an expert in--

Negotiation in lie detection and emotion.

And so you're from University of California Hastings, right?

Correct.

So originally I put out to Twitter,

I said, I'm looking for someone who's

the best at lie detection, who happens to be maybe

in the northern California area.

Turns out you're right in our backyard

and this worked out so perfect.

Tell me about what you do.

So what I do is I mostly teach negotiation in law school.

And I started studying about a decade

ago emotion in negotiation.

And then about five six years ago,

moved that into telling whether people

are lying during negotiation, and telling

whether the techniques you're using,

the pitches you're using, would actually work.

So it's the same thing selling cars,

as trying to persuade a judge, as trying

to pick up someone in a bar.

It's all the same of figuring out

where is their traction in what you're saying.

What is the first thing we should know in negotiation

and figuring out who's lying?

Well, a couple places you could start.

The first way I would say is become aware

of everyone's baseline.

Part of that will be the voice.

So your voice is relatively loud, and your voice is--

I prefer energetic.

--relatively fast.

My voice is relatively fast.

So let's take a look at voice.

When you figure out what somebody's baseline is and then

we see when they're acting differently

from their baseline, that tells us something's going on.

Doesn't necessarily mean that they're lying.

Could be that they're lying, could

be that they're more interested-- we don't know.

Face is another one.

So yours, a relatively animated face

from what I can tell right now.

You're now smiling from the lower part of your face,

so that is not a hit.

So right now you're not sincerely happy.

You're acting polite.

But there's no movement in the upper part of your-- now

you just got some movement in the upper part of your face,

so now it's actually moving.

So these muscles that push up your cheekbones,

these are the ones that reveal there's a sincere smile as

opposed to a flight attendant smile

if they're smiling like that.

Wow.

Doesn't mean they're faking it, right?

So we live in a society of politeness.

So people do these kind of deference

smiles, polite smiles.

And they're not being fake, they're just not "felt" smiles.

That's not "felt" happiness.

Just another accessory.

And your nod right here.

Some people are nodders.

Some people are not nodders.

Let's suppose we're talking, and you're nodding all along.

And then I say something about, god, Sarah Palin, what a bitch,

and you stop nodding at that point.

And that might tell you, huh, could be a Republican,

could be brain dead.

We don't now at that point, we just

know that there's something different about the Sarah

Palin.

I talk with my hands, some people don't.

I stop talking with my hands, that's a soft spot.

We want to investigate that.

Why is that?

Could be that I'm stopping talking with my hands

because I'm having to think harder.

Well, that could be because you've

asked me something embarrassing.

Why did your last relationship end?

I'm embarrassed.

I'm not lying, but I'm trying to figure out

what am I going to share with you.

But that is also a clue of deception.

It doesn't mean a person is lying.

But when they stop talking with their hands as they usually do,

soft spot could be that they're lying.

We've got voice, we've got talking with their hands,

we've got their face, and we've got verbal style.

So, so far I said this, so that means

that I speak relatively informally.

If I started speaking relatively formally,

that would be a problem.

If you start in the middle of one of your episodes

saying, well, whereas this is what you said last time,

I'm noticing a certain inconsistency, indeed,

a certain postmodern milieu of inconsistency.

Then you might think, oh, that's inconsistent with Brian's

usual verbal style.

Brian sounds smart today.

Who is this guy?

Right.

Who is that guy.

Great.

So now you changed your voice a little bit there.

You're talking more deeply.

You just started drinking.

So that's a little bit of a clue it's off these five things,

but it can also fit within baseline.

But for a normal person who has better things

to do with their time, when they start reaching for the water,

or they cough, or they swallow, this is a sign of arousal.

And arousal could be that they're sexually aroused,

but it could also be the stress response has kicked in.

That's a sign that I'm making the person uncomfortable.

If I'm trying to sell you something,

I'm trying to get you to take one of my workshops

in lie detection and you start doing that, I would think,

oh, this person is not so comfortable,

let me try something else.

Now, the last technique, besides verbal style,

is verbal content.

Another example of verbal content changing

is you stay on topic for all the others,

but then for one you start meandering around.

It reminds you of something.

So let's say the conversation seems

to be angling towards a certain direction, and then

all of a sudden out of nowhere--

You switch.

--it takes a side.

Yeah.

Just a recap, the baseline, the things

you've got to pay attention to, there was the voice.

Voice was number one we talked about.

So we've got the face is the second one,

and that becomes very important on its own.

We've got verbal style.

We've got body movements.

And we've got verbal content.

Those are the five basic ones that we're looking at.

And basically establishing a baseline

just means paying attention and making a mental note of what

seems to be what they do naturally

in all of those five categories?

Yes, that's right.

And some of them count more than others.

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Let's take a look at facial expressions.

So facial expressions, much more specific.

So there are seven facial expressions

that have a universal meaning across cultures.

The person I do a lot of research

with, Paul Ekman, the person who's

the inspiration for TV show Lie to Me,

the scientific advisor for it, he said he was in Papua,

New Guinea years ago when Papua, New Guinea

had no contact with the West.

He studied it in blind individuals

who've never seen these expressions-- they show up

the same.

So one of them, for example, the easiest one to learn

is contempt.

Now contempt is a nightmare.

If you're scamming on someone in a bar,

they show contempt, just move on.

Picture Dick Cheney-- you started to do it right there.

It's an asymmetrical smile.

It's a smile on one side of your face.

You did a subtle expression of contempt right before.

And if we slowed it down, that would be exactly what it was.

And they're going to do that.

They're going to go back and capture it.

I hate you guys.

That's exactly what it was, you were just slightly moved sense.

So this is contempt.

OK.

Just like that, that's exactly it.

Sometimes it's on the left.

Sometimes it's on the right.

If you look at Dick Cheney, if you look at George Bush--

do it all the time.

So contempt-- the connotation to me

is that it's this sheer hatred for the person,

but that's not necessarily what you mean by contempt.

Not hatred.

Contempt, one extreme could be a sense of moral superiority.

So you might be talking to someone in San Francisco,

and you say, what do you think of Sarah Palin,

and they show contempt.

You might be talking to Sarah Palin

and say, what do you think of same sex marriage,

and she shows contempt.

So it can be a moral quality of derision.

It can be a sense of being better than.

For some people, it's just skepticism.

Now what's the difference between disgust and--

Contempt is just this very simple muscle.

Disgust is pretty complicated.

Discuss at its extreme is everything moves

towards the middle, like this.

Like you smelled something bad?

Like you smelled something bad.

What's your least favorite food?

Brussels sprouts?

I actually love vegetables.

Love Brussels sprouts, cats?

Sour milk, have you ever had sour milk?

Oh, yeah.

Have you ever had food poisoning?