Okay, since we are like a YouTube channel, two of the hottest, many ball are we not hot eso?

Last year we made a video called the Onley Anti aging cream Networks, according to Science, and were immediately shown a video by the incredible lab muffin.

That explains some of the things that we got wrong about the complexity of beauty products.

So we decided to fly during a global pandemic to Australia, to visit lab muffin because famously you tours can't get or spread Cove it true.

I guess we'll just stay home and zoom with her because that's actually really easy.

And everyone should be doing that.

It's cheaper.

Michelle.

Okay, Love Muffin.

Hi, Michelle.

Can you give us a background on who you are?

I have a PhD in chemistry, and I've got a background in science education.

I've been making videos and blogging about the science behind beauty products since 2011, and I do it so hopefully people who don't have a background in science understand.

It's sort of like what you guys do.

But for beauty, be honest.

When you saw the video.

Were you annoyed?

I wasn't annoyed.

I'm sorry if it felt like I was coming for you, I was actually really excited because it is sort of read that anyone makes ah whole video about skin cat like from a science perspective.

So one of the best parts of being YouTubers, I think, is that you get real time feedback on what you're doing.

And in the past, we have definitely had to fix, like biological pathways drawings.

We've made mistakes or even like the periodic table we've updated.

Yes, there was new information that came in for it.

And we also once said that it took eight seconds for son to get to Earth, and it's eight minutes, things like that.

But with you, this was like a full video.

What we thought we could do today is go through our video and you're going to explain the parts that we got wrong.

So we're going to sit down with my partner, Mitch, because I don't really know or you skin creams to see if he can actually pick and choose which ones are more effective and teach.

You had actually read the ingredients lists of these beauty products to understand from a scientific perspective which ones work.

So the very idea of this game is flawed.

Some might say Correct.

Yeah, there is a bit of a problem with it.

In most countries, products have to have an ingredient list, and it's listed in order of decreasing concentration.

It's tempting to look at how high an ingredient is on the list to see if you have more of an ingredient.

MAWR is usually better, but while you have to have enough of an ingredient for it to work, you can also have too much of an ingredient.

And that's when you start to see side effects.

Skincare ingredients are often irritating if you have too much soem or is not always better.

Another problem with focusing on the ingredients list is that it only really tells you how much of an ingredient you have at the start.

Some ingredients, like rational and vitamin C, are unstable, so, for example, 1% regional products from different brands can end up containing very different amounts of rational by the time it gets to you.

So if you have a product with a high concentration of an active but It has a pretty crappy delivery system that might not work as well as a product that has a lower concentration but a better delivery system so you can think of formulation like a chocolate cake.

Technically, the final chocolate cake and a bag of chocolate cake ingredients would have the same ingredient list.

But when you use them in your mouth, it gives you two very different experiences.

Is it just something that you just navigate by doing a lot of research before you buy a product?

Because if you are just showing up there looking the ingredients lesson reading, what's on the bottle, it's gonna be confused because they're trying to get you to buy it.

If you're trying to go for a medicine, you want a medicine that's been proven in clinical trials in skin care because that doesn't actually exist.

You kind of have to try to grab anecdotal evidence.

So look at reviews.

Look at the ingredients list, look at what's on the label and put it all together to try to make a good decision.

As somebody who's never really done that much skin care.

Honestly, I don't really watch my face.

Tough is it to my detriment that I'm not thinking about it that much.

Honestly, I think if you're happy with your skin, don't bother your half brown.

You'll probably age beautifully.

It's me you're not.

Don't worry about.

Antioxidants are something that are claimed on a lot of products that people are buying.

There is not a scientific consensus that antioxidants will help with anti aging.

In your video, you talk about how this was misleading, but personally, I had read those studies that you talk about in your video stimulation of college and bio synthesis by topically applied Vitamin C double blind slash half a study comparing topical vitamin C and vehicle for rejuvenation of photo damage.

When I read these studies, I didn't comfortably think I could say there was a scientific consensus behind them.

The sample sizes were so small it was 10 people in each study.

The big problem with skin care is that there just isn't that much funding for it.

So we kind of have to take these studies and look at it with a grain of salt.

Generally, there are small sample sizes in skincare studies compared to pharmaceuticals, for example, so for skin care.

We kind of have to lower our expectations and do a bit of educated guesswork.

10 people with a relatively objective measure, like a biopsy, is generally decent as far a skincare studies go.

Vitamin C is regulated as a quasi drug in Japan, which means there's enough evidence that it does something.

In this case, it's a pigment fading quasi drug.

So the reason it's such small sample sizes is because it's not like a top medical priority toe.

Have glowing beautiful skin, a lot of things that claim college and help with wrinkles.

But the molecule itself is too large to actually go through your epidermis.

What we were talking about earlier, the cretinous sites it does not get through so anything with collagen do not ever buy.

Collagen is a very overrated ingredients, but I wouldn't say 100% PS.

I'd probably put it back down to maybe 90% p s.

Most of the time.

It is in there to tell a good story.

Like you said, it's too big to get into skin.

But even though it's too big, it is really good at acting as a humidity.

So Humeston's ingredients that grab onto water and keep it on your skin.

Keeping it hydrated can do a lot of good, so it can reduce the appearance of wrinkles.

It can help it act as a good barrier against irritants.

Collagen does tend to make the product a little bit more expensive.

It's really glycerin that's usually during the heavy.

Lifting.

Their retinal and retinoic acid is what we're gonna talk about right now because it is the Onley face cream for anti aging that there is a scientific consensus about, especially in Western marketing.

The idea of wrinkles is really I guess it shouldn't our brains.

But in a lot of other countries with different skin types, aging isn't just about wrinkles.

So, for example, white skin.

You start getting wrinkles late twenties, early thirties with Asian skin.

It's a lot later, so I think it's something like forties and fifties.

I guess the signs of aging the anti aging products really are targeting things like pigmentation.

That's probably the biggest thing for Asians.

I've definitely got some hidden under there.

Um, yeah, uneven pigment and age spots are much bigger thing because obviously we have a lot more ability to produce pigment So my mom is like half South Asian, like from India.

Obviously, I have, like, slightly tanned skin, and I thought about how darker skin protects you from the sun.

But I've never really been like.

And that is why darker skin doesn't wrinkle or age in that way as early.

Yeah, so I guess it's where the same black don't crack comes from so many of the signs studies that I'm reading.

They're focusing on wrinkles, and they have moments where they talk about the science of why different skin tones don't age.

Our story there, I just said it don't get wrinkles the same way white people do, and then they just move on and go back to talking about wrinkles.

It just shows you how like Eurocentric and White science is.

There was like a big thing about manifestations of covert in dark skin.

There are a lot of dermatologist pointing out that a lot of the pictures off covert manifestations on skin.

It was like 90% white skin, and they were like a few pictures of darker skin, and so it was actually a lot harder to diagnose and fix those issues.

Question.

Should we take our original video down?

I don't think so.

I think it is really good to have people see how conversations go.

Because I think there is a lot of pressure on scientists, especially in 2020 2021.

That science is just this perfect monolith.

That doesn't change.

And I think that's really damaging.

Okay, Thank you so much for educating us for coming on.

And for your video.

Where can people find you?

Slash Subscribe to your channels.

Chefs kiss Amazing.

Thank you s Oh, my channel is lab muffin beauty science.

And I am also on instagram.

I started on chick talk, but I don't know what I'm doing and on Twitter as well.

So it's lab off in beauty science.

Old lab muffin, depending on how many letters I'm allowed.