WELCOME BACK TO "A LATE SHOW."

HE IS THE NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLING AUTHOR OF

"UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS WITH A BLACK MAN."

ON MONDAY NIGHT, HE WILL BE HOSTING "THE BACHELOR: AFTER THE

FINAL ROSE."

PLEASE WELCOME BACK TO "A LATE SHOW," EMMANUEL ACHO!

EMMANUEL, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> MY BROTHER, SO GOOD TO SEE YOU, MY FRIEND.

SO GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> Stephen: YOU'RE ONE OF THE FEW GUESTS WE HAVE ACTUALLY HAD

TWICE IN COVID.

THIS IS HOW LONG IT'S BEEN GOING ON.

THE LAST TIME YOU WERE HERE, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT

"UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS WITH A BLACK MAN" AND

UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS IN GENERAL.

AND WHILE TALKING ABOUT SYSTEMIC RACISM AS A WHITE MAN CAN BE

UNCOMFORTABLE, I DON'T MEAN TO DISAPPOINT YOU, BUT YOU'RE

ACTUALLY VERY COMFORTABLE TO TALK TO.

I HOPE THAT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE A FAILURE TO YOU.

>> OH, IT'S A CATCH-22.

I LURE YOU IN BY SAYING IT WILL BE UNCOMFORTABLE, BUT ONCE

YOU'RE HERE, STEPHEN, IT'S ALL COMFORT, MY FRIEND.

>> Stephen: THIS SUMMER, YOU LAUNCHED A WEB SERIES TO TALK

ABOUT RACE IN AMERICA.

AT THAT POINT, WHEN WE WERE TALKING THIS SUMMER, DID YOU, IN

YOUR WILDEST DREAMS, THINK YOU WOULD BE HOSTING "THE BACHELOR"

THE NEXT TIME WE TALKED?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

THAT IS THE CRAZIEST OF STORIES THAT "UNCOMFORTABLE

CONVERSATIONS WITH A BLACK MAN" A BOOK ABOUT RACIAL

RECONCILIATION WILL LEAD YOU-- LEAD ME-- TO NOW HOSTING THE

MOST-UNCOMFORTABLE EPISODE OF ONE OF THE MOST-WATCHED SHOWS IN

OUR RECENT HISTORY.

MIND BLOWING.

>> Stephen: IT IS ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE.

LET'S GET TO THAT.

"THE BACHELOR" IS ALWAYS FULL OF DRAMA, OBVIOUSLY.

BUT THIS SEASON WAS PARTICULARLY DRAMATIC.

THERE WAS CONTROVERSY OFF SCREEN.

FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW, CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED, AND

WHY PEOPLE WERE SO UPSET?

>> TWO-FOLD.

FIRST AND FOREMOST, THIS SEASON WAS THE FIRST BLACK BACHELOR,

MATT JAMES.

THAT'S NO SMALL FEAT.

20 SEASONS AND WE NOW HAVE OUR FIRST BLACK BACHELOR-- OVER 20

SEASONS, IN FACT.

BUT ALSO, ONE OF HIS FINAL THREE FRONT-RUNNERS, RACHEL, SHE WAS

PICTURED AT AN ANTEBELLUM-STYLE PLANTATION ON SOCIAL MEDIA IN

2018.

AND THOSE PICTURES RESURFACED.

SHE IS A WHITE WOMAN, OBVIOUSLY, AND SO YOU HAVE MATT JAMES, A

BLACK MAN, ONE OF HIS FINAL FRONT-RUNNERS, RACHEL, HAS THESE

PICTURES SURFACE, THESE RACIALLY INSENSITIVE PICTURES.

IMAGINE HOW CONVOLUTED AND VOLATILE THIS TOPIC IS BECAUSE

YOU'RE DEALING WITH LOVE AND YOU'RE ALSO DEALING WITH RACE

AND RACIAL INSENSITIVITY.

>> Stephen: OKAY, AND THIS IS-- AND I BELIEVE, IF I'M NOT

MISTAKEN, THESE ARE LIKE A-- QUOTE, UNQUOTE-- OLD SOUTH DAYS.

IT'S PEOPLE IN HOOP SKIRTS.

IT'S ACTUALLY RCREATING THE LOOK, IF NOT THE ENVIRONMENT

OF-- OF AN OLD SOUTH PLANTATION.

>> CORRECT.

ANTEBELLUM SOUTH PLANTATION IS THE PROPER TERM.

FOR THOSE AT HOME WONDERING, REMEMBER ANTEBELLUM IN LATIN

MEANS "BEFORE THE WAR," THE WAR IN QUESTION, THE CIVIL WAR THAT

FREED THE SLAVES.

SHE IS PICTURED IN ATTIRE CELEBRATING, IF YOU WILL, BACK

IN 2018, FOR WHICH SHE HAS SINCE APOLOGIZED, BUT SHE IS PICTURED

IN ATTIRE OF OLD SOUTH ANTEBELLUM PLANTATION, A

CELEBRATION, IF YOU.

THAT'S AT LEAST HOW IT LOOKS.

>> Stephen: AND, YOU KNOW, A CELEBRATION AND, ALSO, AT THE

VERY LEAST, A WILLFUL IGNORANCE ABOUT THE TRAGEDY ASSOCIATED

WITH THAT ENTIRE CULTURE.

OKAY, SO, THERE'S THE ORIGINAL SCANDAL, OR THERE'S THE ORIGINAL

PROBLEM.

NOW LET'S TALK ABOUT CHRIS HARRISON.

HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?

FOR THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW THAT STORY, WHAT HAPPENED THERE

THAT HAS NOW PUT YOU IN THE HOSTING POSITION?

>> YEAH, SO CHRIS HARRISON, WHO HAS BEEN THE HOST FOR 20 YEARS

AND HAS RECENTLY STEPPED ASIDE DURING THIS MOMENT, HE TRIED TO

GO TO THE DEFENSE OF RACHEL IN AN INTERVIEW WITH RACHEL

LINDSEY, AND CHRIS HARRISON, HE WAS-- AS HE WOULD ADMIT-- WAS

IGNORANT AND WAS ARROGANT IN SAYING THAT, WELL, IN 2018, WHAT

RACHEL DID WASN'T THAT BAD."

CHRIS HARRISON'S WORDS, NOT NECESSARILY MY OWN.

AND "WE'VE ALL KIND OF ACKNOWLEDGED AND CALLED TO THE

ATTENTION."

NO, NO, NO, IN 2018, IT WAS JUST AS BAD.

WE ARE MORE AWARE NOW, BUT 2018, ACKNOWLEDGING AND DRESSING IN

THE ATTIRE OF AN ANTEBELLUM SOUTH PLANTATION IS JUST AS BAD

AS IT IS RIGHT NOW TODAY.

>> Stephen: I THINK THAT IS SAFE TO SAY, THOSE ARE HIS WORDS

NOT YOURS.

>> VERY SAFE TO SAY.

>> Stephen: HERE WE ARE.

SO HE STEPS ASIDE TEMPORARILY FROM THOSE DUTIES.

DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT WHETHER HE SHOULD BE DISMISSED

FOR GOOD FOR THIS?

OR IS THIS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR EDUCATION AND REDEMPTION FOR

SOMEONE?

>> YEAH, I DON'T BELIEVE IN CANCEL CULTURE.

I DO BELIEVE IN ACCOUNTABILITY.

AND SO, I THINK THAT RIGHT NOW, HE IS TAKING ACCOUNTABILITY FOR

HIS ACTIONS.

FOR EVERY ACTION THERE'S AN EQUAL AND OPPOSITE REACTION.

THAT CAN BE A LAW OF NEWTON OR BASIC COMMON SENSE.

HE HAD AN ACTION AND IS CURRENTLY DEALING WITH THE

REACTION FROM THAT.

SHOULD HE RETURN TO THAT ROLE?

YOU HAVE TO DECIDE WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF CHRIS HARRISON?

WHAT'S IN THE BEST OF THE SHOW AND THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS.

BUT, ALSO, WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CAST?

YOU KNOW, THEY'RE TRYING TO COMMIT TO DIVERSITY.

YOU HAD YOUR FIRST BLACK BACHELOR.

WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF ALL THREE OF THOSE PRIMARY

PARTIES AT PLAY AND MAKE THE DECISION THAT SERVES THE MOST

GOOD.

>> Stephen: AS YOU SAID, IT WAS AFTER 20 SEASONS-- 23

SEASONS, SOMETHING LIKE, THAT BEFORE YOU HAD THE FIRST BLACK

BACHELOR, AND WHEN YOU HAD THE FIRST BACHELORETTE.

DO YOU THINK THESE SHOWS SHOULD MORE ACCURATELY REFLECT REALITY

IN AMERICA?

YOU KNOW, THE REALITY THAT WE ALL LIVE OF-- OF A DIVERSE

CULTURE OF 20 DRUNK WOMEN LIVING IN ONE HOUSE TRYING TO GET ONE

GUY TO MARRY THEM-- YOU KNOW, THE REALITY OF AMERICA

( LAUGHS ) >> OH, YOU ARE A FOOL, MY

FRIEND.

>> Stephen: I TAKE THAT AS A COMPLIMENT.

BUT-- YOU KNOW, IT IS-- BECAUSE THE REASON I ASK IS THAT

DIVERSITY IS A WONDERFUL THING.

ARE THESE SHOWS ESSENTIALLY FANTASY TO BEGIN WITH?

ARE WE PUTTING TOO MUCH WEIGHT ON A REALITY SHOW?

>> SO, HERE IS THE ISSUE AT HAND.

THIS SHOW, "THE BACHELOR" AND "THE BACHELORETTE," THEY ARE

SUPPOSED TO BE THE UTOPIAN RELATIONSHIP IN AMERICA.

BUT IF FOR 20 SEASONS ALL WE SEE IS A WHITE MALE LEAD, IF FOR 13

SEASONS ALL WE SEE IS A WHITE FEMALE LEAD, THEN WHAT IS A

UTOPIAN DEPICTION OF LOVE IN AMERICA?

AS ME, AS A BLACK PERSON, I'M LOOKING AT THAT SHOW AND SAYING,

"WHERE DO I FIT IN?

WHERE I DO BELONG?" SO I THINK WE ALL HAVE TO COMMIT

BOTH IN SHOWS LIKE "THE BACHELOR" AND "THE

BACHELORETTE," AND IN OUR SOCIETY OF MORE ACCURATELY

REPRESENTING THE WHOLE, MORE ACCURATELY SERVING EVERYONE.

HOW DO YOU DO THAT?

YOU DON'T JUST DO IT BY WHO YOUR LEAD CHARACTER IS, BUT WHO IS

CASTING?

WHO ARE YOUR PRODUCERS?

IS THERE DIVERSITY ACROSS EVERY BOARD, MY FRIEND.

>> Stephen: OKAY, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE "AFTER THE ROSE" SHOW

THAT YOU'RE HOSTING.

I KNOW YOU CAN'T TELL US WHO GOT PICKED OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

I'M NOT TRYING TO, LIKE, SQUEEZE THAT OUT OF YOU--

>> IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE.

IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE.

>> Stephen: JUST GIVE ME A SCALE OF THE DRAMA.

ON A SCALE OF ONE TO 10, WHERE IS THE DRAMA ON THIS ONE?

>> I CAN FERVENTLY SAY THIS WILL BE THE MOST UNCOMFORTABLE

CONVERSATION IN BACHELOR FRANCHISE HISTORY.

WHY?

BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND --

>> Stephen: BECAUSE EMMANUEL ACHO IS WILLING TO HAVE THAT

UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATION.

>> LOOK, THOUGH, STEPHEN, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND.

YOU'RE NOW MIXING LOVE-- WHICH IS ONE OF THE STRONGEST

EMOTIONS-- ALONG WITH RACIAL TENSION, WHICH IS ONE OF THE

MOST TOXIC AND VOLATILE TOPICS OF OUR CURRENT DAY.

LIKE, YOU'RE MIXING TWO INCREDIBLY STRONG AND VOLATILE

SUBJECT MATTERS, AND WEAVING THEM TOGETHER IN ONE FINAL

HOUR-LONG EPISODE AFTER THE CULMINATION OF THE SHOW.

IT BREEDS DISCOMFORT, AND I'M SO THRILLED TO BE A PART OF IT.

>> Stephen: I'LL WATCH.

I'LL WATCH.

OKAY.

JUST AS A FAN, I'VE GOT TO KNOW, ARE YOU A BACHELOR GUY OR A

"BACHELORETTE" GUY?

BECAUSE I-- "BACHELOR," QUALITY SHOW.

"BACHELORETTE," I REALLY ENJOY, LIKE, THE 20, YOU KNOW,

GREASED-UP MEAT SLABS FLEXING ON EACH OTHER.

THAT'S WHAT I REALLY LIKE.

THAT'S MY FAVORITE.

I-- I'M HERE FOR IT.

>> I'M GOING TO SAY I'M A "BACHELORETTE" GUY BECAUSE I

LIKE SEEING THE MEN HAVE TO COMPETE AND SEEING ALL THEIR

EGOS GET INVOLVED.

>> Stephen: SURE.

>> THEY GET SENSITIVE AND ALL THESE MACHO MEN GET THEIR HEARTS

BROKEN AND WHATNOT.

I PREFER IT THAT WAY.

>> Stephen: NOW, YOU WOULD MAKE A GREAT BACHELOR ON "THE

BACHELORETTE" COMPETING WITH THE OTHER GUYS.

HAVE YOU-- HAVE YOU-- WOULD YOU DO THE SHOW?

>> DUDE, TRUE STORY, TRUE STORY.

I'VE SAID IT BUT NEVER THIS PUBLICLY.

I WAS ASKED TO DO THE SHOW THREE TIMES NOW.

IN 2018, THEN LATER IN 2018 FOR WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN HANNAH

BROWN SEASON, AND THE BEGINNING OF 2020, I WAS AGAIN APPROACHED

ABOUT DOING THE SHOW.

AND I TURNED IT DOWN ALL THREE TIMES.

AND LOOK -- >> Stephen: WHY!

YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN AN AUDIENCE FAVORITE!

>> I'D LIKE TO KEEP MY PUBLIC LIFE PUBLIC, AND MY PRIVATE LIFE

PRIVATE.

>> Stephen: ALL RIGHT, OKAY.

SO ONE OTHER THING YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TELL ME ABOUT IS YOU'RE

NOT GOING TO TELL ME WHO GOT PICKED.

AND I WON'T EVEN SAY...

WHO YOU WOULD PICK BETWEEN THE TWO FINALISTS, WHICH ARE RACHEL

AND MICHELLE.

BUT DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION?

DO YOU HAVE A CHOICE IN YOUR MIND IF YOU HAD TO PICK?

>> I MEAN, IT'S INTERESTING, RIGHT, RACHEL IS CURRENTLY

DEALING WITH ALL OF THIS RACIALLY TENSE CONTROVERSY.

SO THAT WOULD KIND OF, OBVIOUSLY, SKEW MY DECISION AS A

BLACK MAN, IF I ALREADY KNEW ABOUT SAID CONTROVERSY.

BUT I THINK WHAT'S SO INTERESTING IS WATCHING BOTH OF

THE LOVE CONNECTIONS PLAY OUT.

I THINK MATT AND RACHEL HAVE AN INCREDIBLE CONNECTION, JUST

INFECTION.

MATT ADMITTED HE WAS FALLING FOR RACHEL FIRST.

AND MICHELLE AND MATT THEY REALLY VIBE AND WE SAW IT AND

CONTINUE TO SEE IT OVER THE COURSE OF THE SEASON.

I CAN'T SPEAK FOR MICHELLE-- FOR MATT, RATHER.

BUT I'M EXCITED TO WATCH IT PLAY OUT.

>> Stephen: ME, TOO.

AND I'M ALSO EXCITING ABOUT YOUR NEW BOOK.

IT'S A-- IT'S A FOLLOW-UP TO "UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS

WITH A BLACK MAN."

AND IT'S "UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS WITH A BLACK BOY."

WHO IS THIS BOOK FOR?

>> STEPHEN WHEN I WAS AN ADOLESCENT, I ALWAYS HEARD,

"EMMANUEL YOU'RE LIKE AN OREO-- WHITE ON THE INSIDE, BLACK ON

THE OUTSIDE."

I DIDN'T REALIZE HOW OFFENSIVE THAT WAS BECAUSE MY WHITE

FRIEND, WHEN I WAS YOUNG WERE SAYING, "EMMANUEL, YOU'RE TOO

SMART TO BE BLACK."

OR "YOU DRESS TOO WELL TO BE BLACK."

SM I HAD AN IDENTITY COMPLEX.

SO THIS BOOK IS FOR OUR YOUNG ADULTS.

THINK AGES 12-16, 10-14, BECAUSE IF WE CAN FIX THE NEXT

GENERATION OF IGNORANCE, IF WE CAN FIX THE NEXT GENERATION OF

INSENSITIVITY, THEN WE CAN CURE THE PROBLEM AT THE ROOT.

DON'T TRY TO CORRECT THE LEAVES.