The pandemic has been an enormous upheaval for us economically.

Last year we had minus 5.5% GDP growth, which is our worst ever.

Uh, in terms of cases, we've had quite a lot of cases 60,000 odd, but fortunately, most of them have not been severe cases, so our fatalities have been very, very low.

I think so far with 29 died of covid.

But the social impact, the disruption anxieties over lots of pay, lots of jobs over what will you do with our Children at home and schools closed?

That has been pervasive.

Globalization is a longer term problem or D globalization.

There have been trends underway for some time now, not least because of us China, but not just that.

And with the covid experience, that may give it a further push.

I hope not over the edge, but it will push it a little bit further because everybody will say I need to make my own masks.

I need to have my own supply chains and, uh, when everyone scrambles at the same time for something scarce.

It's not very good for the world.

Globalization, even in your own country, hasn't always benefited everyone.

Many people have felt left out here.

Do we need a new economic model?

I think globalization has benefited everybody in Singapore.

You may not feel it so, but there were not if we did not have the multinationals here if we did not have the international trade that we have.

If we did not were not open as we are, I have no doubt all of us would be worse off.

But what has generated tensions is when the interface is so stark.

People see the competition directly because they are in a global market now.

But at the same time, they understand that our way forward cannot be too close ourselves up, because if we do that, we are all going to be worse off.

Is that the way you see Singapore growing in the future?

Given the backlash against globalization that we're seeing now, we will work very hard to do.

That is not just a matter of good intentions, but also whether or not we can make sure that people see that globalization is working out for them and for the people who feel that the competition is fierce and the future is unpredictable, that, in fact, that they know that there's an extra help for them.

There's extra support for them that they are not alone in this and that in Singapore we will make sure that they are well looked after, provided they make the effort to continue to upgrade themselves.

And we're putting a lot of effort into this.

We're putting.

We've got skills Future, which is a comprehensive program to train and retrain people throughout their working lives after they have left school causes recognition schemes, uh, arrangements with employers, government subsidies.

Every country is trying to do this, but we are doing it.

We're trying to do it more systematically.

And, uh, with Alpha full resources behind it, the U.

S China relationship has deteriorated significantly over the last few years.

When the time comes, which one will you choose?

I hope the time does not come.

I mean, it is not possible for us to choose one or the other because we are very intense and extensive ties with both the US and with China economic as well as in other areas and so to do many other countries in the world.

So I don't think this is a dilemma only to Singapore.

It's a problem for many countries in the world, which is why we are all hoping and encouraging there too large powers to think very carefully before embarking on deciding that the other one is an adversary and one which has to be kept down if not put down.

What would it take?

Do you think to get to a point where we see real military conflict between China and the United States?

How likely is the possibility?

Do you think it's more likely than it was five years ago?

But I think the odds of a military clash not yet high, but the risk of severe tensions which will raise the odds later on.

I think that's considerable because both sides take their domestic calculations as paramount.

What's a domestic position?

How can they secure it?

What must they do with their own populations and their external relations are based on that and therefore it's not so easy to say?

Well, the external logic compels you to work together because the internal logic may impel you to take a very hard line, and then you may find yourself at an impasse and clash, and that can easily happen.

Do you think the U.

S.

Needs to accept that it's no longer number one?

I think the U.

S.

Is still number one, but number two is not so far behind, and that's what is difficult for the US to accept.

And when it comes to China, you know it very well.

I wouldn't claim that what I wanted to ask you is how concerned you are with the direction that China is taking politically.

Well, I do not.

We cannot judge the domestic pressures which lead China to make the decisions it makes.

But I think internationally, the position which has taken it has wanted some friends.

But at the same time, it has led two tensions with major powers, and there is significant uncertainty anxiety over which way China is going, and will this be good for them?

And I don't think that is in China's interest.

So what do you think might be a better solution or a better way?

I would hesitate to give advice to other countries leaders.

I think they all make their own calculations.

But what we would like to see is China being able to be a country where its prosperity and its development and its growing strength is welcomed by other countries in the world who see this as an opportunity for them to prosper together and to live in a stable world together.

And even now, many, many countries, including Singapore, want very much to maintain good relations with China in order to benefit from China's development and to co prosper with them.

So I think that that is a very important factor which China has had in its favor, which it would be a pity to miss out with Miss Out on in the next phase if you look at America.

It used to be that the business people American businessman MNCs would be one of the strongest advocates for China and for good relations with China because they saw the opportunities there, they saw how they could prosper there.

They were investing there.

They were trading.

Wal Mart buys enormous amounts from China, and it benefits Americans not just Walmart, but benefits American housewives and ordinary people all over the country.

But in the last 57 years, I think American business attitudes have shifted, and they are now no longer has opened in the support of China.

In fact, there's quite a lot of pushback is not that the opportunities are not there, but they see that China has moved forward and they want to see a more open environment and one where they get a bigger bite of the cherry.

I think it's understandable.

China is a new position now, and you have to make a different, uh, set a different balance in your relationship with the world and what the world was prepared to grant you in an earlier phase and now has to be reworked.

And that's quite difficult for a country to accept, indeed, and it makes it quite difficult for a country like Singapore that sits in the middle of all of this to navigate.

When you do try and navigate with these big economic and political powers, what are some of your key considerations?

First, what is in Singapore's interests?

How do we make a rational assessment of that and make that judgment for ourselves and hold our people together, persuade them that this is the right thing to do.

And generally it is that we want to be friends with both.

But we have to find out the right way, our own way forward.

And from time to time there will be kerfuffles.

And we have had kerfuffles with China once in a while, with America also once in a while And when that happens, you have to understand it cannot be helped between countries.

This happens.

It doesn't mean where your opponent but it does mean that we have problems which need to be worked through.

And meanwhile, other areas where we can continue to work together.

And that is how we do it.

Thank you, Prime Minister, for joining us on talking business Asia.

Thank you.