to getting authentic Greek phyllo pastry incredibly thin.

But this is only one of the challenges of making phyllo.

"Phyllo" means "leaf" in Greek.

And, well, the name couldn't be more accurate.

These thin layers are achieved

by a very complex lamination that involves

not only a fat, like butter or margarine, but also oil.

The oil gives extra slip and makes the pastry

incredibly difficult to stretch.

So difficult that most bakers

have given up making phyllo by hand.

We're in Thessaloniki, and we're about

to meet with Philippos Bandis.

He's one of only a few artisans left

still making phyllo by hand.

This is his shop. Let's walk in.

Philippos makes his phyllo using water,

a soft semolina flour with strong gluten,

salt, vegetable oil, and margarine.

Philippos: To make our phyllo more

crunchy and light to the taste.

Claudia: To be strong enough

to be tossed in the air,

the dough needs to be mixed for 20 minutes

and then be mixed again with more oil and margarine.

So how is this dough different from other types of dough

that have a lot of layers, like,

for example, croissants or other pastries?

Philippos: You cannot say that they

have something in common.

It's completely different. Claudia: Okay. [laughs]

Philippos: Because we don't make

layers of butter, dough, butter, dough.

The layers are from the folding.

Claudia: Yeah.

Philippos: But we make here.

Claudia: You can smell a little bit

the oil and the margarine.

[upbeat music]

After mixing, the dough rests

for another 20 minutes on the counter.

Here, Philippos is cutting it in small pieces

of 250 grams each that will then be rolled into a bowl.

Philippos: Like a perfect --

Claudia: -- perfect bowl.

Philippos: We leave them to rest,

again for 20 minutes, with our oil on it.

It will make a crust over there

if we don't put the oil, and we don't want that.

Claudia: After the 20 minutes' rest,

Philippos uses his palms

to press the dough, and not his fingers,

as they would create unwanted holes.

Then, guess what? We have to wait another 20 minutes.

It may sound like a lot of breaks,

but this method is actually speeding things up.

If the dough was kept as a whole,

it would need much longer periods of rest.

Philippos: Now, margarine inside.

Claudia: Ooh. Philippos: Everywhere, okay?

We put them together, okay?

This will help us make the lamination, the layers.

Claudia: Mm-hmm.

Philippos: This will separate the dough.

Claudia: Yeah, the dough.

Philippos: The dough.

Claudia: We wait 20 minutes again, and then

the dough is ready to be tossed in the air.

[upbeat music]

Philippos: Can you go a step back?

Thank you very much. Claudia: Okay.

[upbeat music]

[dough slapping]

Claudia: Despite its theatricality,

this technique is not for show.

It's used to evenly spread the fat in the dough

and to avoid any lumps.

And, again, it's a faster and more effective way

than any rolling pin could possibly be.

So, should I give it a try? Tossing out phyllo in the air

reminded me a bit of tossing pizza dough.

It made me feel a little bit closer to home,

although I have a feeling

that it won't be very useful today.

Philippos: One hand like that. Claudia: Yeah.

Philippos: Okay...

And the other hand like that, here.

No, no, no.

Claudia: Like that? Philippos: Yeah.

Claudia: Okay.

Philippos: Now, there and there.

Claudia: Whew, like that?

Philippos: Here, no, no, no. Claudia: No, no, no.

Philippos: This side stays up, okay?

Philippos: We will not... Claudia: Ah, okay, I see.

Yeah. Philippos: Yeah. Like that.

The finger here. Claudia: The finger here?

So you don't want to flip it. Philippos: No, no, no.

Claudia: It's really to give it a little bit of air.

Philippos: A little bit -- and that.

[upbeat music]

Philippos: Good. Very, very good. Bravo.

Claudia: Why is it that it doesn't break?

Philippos: Because all this preparation

we make, and the flour that, as I told you,

it's strong. We have a strong [inaudible].

Claudia: Wow, my God, look,

you can see your hand.

Philippos: It's ready now.

If you can see your hand, it's ready.

Claudia: Yeah. It feels very thin, but strong.

I don't really want to dare touching it more

because I'm really scared I'm going to break it.

Philippos: You can try later. Claudia: Yeah.

Is the cold also why it stays like that?

Philippos: Of course. We don't want the dough to be hot

because it will break it.

Claudia: And what's the most common

mistake when you do this?

Philippos: These edges, you need a lot

of practice and the experience to make them thin

as in the center of the fold.

All this phyllo must be the same everywhere.

This is the most -- the more difficult part.

Of course you must not have holes.

Claudia: Okay. That's --

I think I touched there, sorry. [laughs]

Philippos: It's a problem, that,

for many of us, the holes.

Claudia: If you don't take into account

my awkward tossing technique, the right technique

might still give you some holes.

This can be because of the wrong preparation of the dough

or the wrong temperature, especially in the summer months.

In Greece, phyllo pastry is always paired with a pie,

and often the making process changes

depending on which pie it is.

The one Philippos is making is specific to bougatsa,

a popular breakfast pie in Thessaloniki and northern Greece.

Bougatsa phyllo is one of the most complicated to make

because it has to be stretched

and tossed in the air as a full large sheet,

whereas other pies can be stretched in individual portions.

Bougatsa has been around for centuries,

from the times of the Byzantine Empire.

In fact, Philippos tells me that both his family

and the pie came to modern-day Greece

from Cappadocia, Turkey.

Philippos: My grandfather came as a refugee here in 1922

and brought all the recipes that we continue to make them.

This is my father the year that opened this store, in 1969.

This is how they used to sell bougatsa in the streets.

This photo is in Constantinopolis, Istanbul.

Claudia: The way you make phyllo is different

depending on where you are in Greece.

Philippos: Ah, yes, have some difference.

The most popular breakfast is in north Greece.

This bougatsa, here in Thessaloniki,

we try to make more crunch in the phyllo.

In Ceres, the other town, they make the phyllo more soft.

Claudia: Okay.

Philippos: It's a little different.

Claudia: The giant phyllo sheet is cut in the middle

and covered with more oil and margarine.

Philippos then fills it with a sweet cream

that he and his team make in the shop.

The cream is added at room temperature.

Otherwise it would break the phyllo.

It's now time to fold the phyllo.

Each folded side has four layers,

so there are 16 in this half.

The first folded half with the cream filling

goes inside the unfolded half,

which creates 32 layers in total for our bougatsa.

Yeah, the dough looks super moist

and humid, like a -- there is a little bit of air.

Philippos: We want the air inside.

It will help us to cook better inside the bougatsa.

Claudia: Apart from sweet-cream bougatsa

you can also enjoy it as a savory pie

with local cheese, spinach, or meat.

Philippos: The people that make bougatsa,

year by the year, less and less and less and less,

and this art will disappear.

And it's a pity. It's another kind of food,

the bougatsa with the machines,

so I want to show the young people

that it's a beautiful job and it is nicer.

Claudia: The pie rests in the fridge for 24 hours

so all the flavors can come together

and form maximum crunch.

To achieve a golden crust, it cooks for 30 minutes

at 180 degrees Celsius.

[pastry crackling]

One bougatsa makes four portions.

Traditionally, each portion is then cut in 10 small pieces.

As the pie is traditionally eaten for breakfast,

in Thessaloniki bougatsa with sweet cream is often enjoyed

with a glass of chocolate milk.

Philippos: You can see the layers from here,

over there, all these.

Claudia: Yes, they're over here.

Philippos: Yeah.

Claudia: How many do we put? Thirty-two, you said?

Philippos: Yes, 32.

[upbeat music]

Philippos: It's very simple cream,

but the ingredients are all first quality, you know,

and around Thessaloniki local.

Claudia: Also the crunch is not a aggressive crunch.

It's not oily, it's light -- oh, it's very, very nice.

Philippos: It's very good.

[upbeat music]