Like, traditional gender roles?

Like give me an example, what's the traditional gender role for a woman?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Woman takes care of the house takes care of the kids that says that.

Where's the suitor that says a woman has to cook and clean?

I always say, show me the baker chicken.

Ia I'm just show me I just want to see it.

I don't want to see it.

Mhm.

Song and a friend of mine who comes to visit me all the time and we speak in Arabic and we had you know, we had a conversation about, you know, uh toxic masculinity and you don't know what that meant?

He said, What does that mean?

I'm like?

And I try to explain said Yeah.

But what does it mean?

I mean, I'm I'm a man.

It's all masculinity toxic.

I mean, no, all masculinity isn't toxic.

If we said that all masculinity was toxic, we would deny the humanity the humility and the grace of our fathers and grandfathers.

We would deny the excellence and beauty of our sons.

But I think that masculinity just like anything else can be portrayed in ways that are abusive.

I think all things like in their extreme forms can be toxic when we talk about it.

Like as Muslims when it comes to like any really like, extreme radical thing that harms other people is toxic would you say the same in Pakistan growing up in Pakistan that the definition holds in Pakistan.

I think it's hard to sort of take the template of masculinity that exists in the west and then apply it to a country like Pakistan in Pakistan for example, men hold hands walking on the street.

Same in syria, you wouldn't you wouldn't find two straight men walking in the us holding hands, they would die before they would do that.

Like let's let's just you know, you know, I mean has has the definition of masculinity changed over time?

I don't I don't think there's one definition of masculinity that translates across cultures and I think that's what you are speaking to.

There are certain levels of cultural specificity that are important.

I do think that now people are becoming more cognizant of the fact that we need to give men this space to be emotionally vulnerable, but we haven't given them the vocabulary and the tools to do so while that is happening in certain spaces, there's also this rise of you know, I have to beat on my chest.

It's this performance is gender performance, which is very interesting because some of these same people can be extremely homophobic and when you talk about gender performance and things like that, they're like, no, that I'm just being a man.

Do we feel like we have the responsibility to fix like the racist and homophobic relatives and uncles that we have.

I think like twitter would say yes, things can get frustrating when you're dealing with someone who's just sort of grown up in a different time.

Is it anyone's responsibility?

I don't think so.

I also think like, just let people let like, let all people make mistakes.

Let them learn through making mistakes so funky on the scene walked into your office.

How would you help him or would you help him?

I would love to help Uncle Nassim.

Nassim is are my favorite kind of person to help.

I like the hard rock.

Where would you start?

Where would you start?

I think Uncle Naseem needs a hug.

I think he's no man.

You'll you'll like you'll you got you'll have him on your finger.

Like a like a ring on it and he's not difficult.

Uncle Nassim is not difficult to figure out.

He wants love, he wants connection, he wants to be seen.

So you think you think assam's character gives him like, the love he needs.

Uncle Mason is not willing to accept the love that he might get because he's so used to not being loved.

Uncle Nassim has a lot of self loathing.

He has a lot of internalized homophobia throwing this out there.

So where do you where do you think?

Like, homophobia comes from?

Like with his men?

I think it relates to not only to toxic masculinity, but a misunderstanding of religion and the way that we use religion to oppress people.

Um it is considered religiously superior to hate someone who's gay?

But does the text say that it doesn't make any sense.

And I do think that it has a lot to do with toxic masculinity because we think that to be a man means to be a conqueror of women.

It's all related to this gender dynamic and this fear that that some men have of having their power taken away.

What role can men play in defining healthier gender dynamics?

Check your homeboys, check your friends and don't call them out and cancel them.

Call them in and correct them.

This is I want this for you because I want us to be better.

Yeah, I can understand obviously, like if someone is being extremely like racist or sexist or homophobic or whatever, then it's difficult to sort of approach that with love and care.

But like, I think everybody kind of has a fear of being of saying the wrong thing.

And so they would rather just not address the conversation.

Yeah.

So, so the scene was in your office, but then, you know, incomes Rami right after me, What would you say to Rami?

How would you help me?

And what is Romney's problem from your point of view?

How much time do we have?

I'm joking.

I would ask Rami at what point did you stop thinking that you are enough?

Because I think that he's looking he's searching for something, he's looking for something.

He's a lot like Uncle Naseem they both have this this shame and this this heavy secret.

I think his secret is that he doesn't know.

He has not yet decided who he wants to be you and I are gonna be talking a lot.

I'm gonna actually come talk to you as late because life has some serious issues you know?

You know.

But yeah it needs to learn a lot.