Oh my god, I think this is one of my favorite topics.

天哪，我覺得這是我最喜歡的話題之一。

Okay, let's go.

好了，我們走吧

So you know how people say, well, it's fruit so it's natural.

你知道人們會說，這是水果，所以是天然的。

Yeah, okay, so I have a scoop for you.

好吧，我有個獨家新聞要告訴你。

The fruit that we have today in our supermarkets is not natural.

我們今天在超市裡買到的水果並不是天然的。

Just like humans bred gray wolves into chihuahuas for their entertainment, humans have been crossing and breeding fruit for millennia to make them more appetizing for humans, to make them sweeter, to make them have fewer seeds, less fiber.

就像人類把灰狼培育成吉娃娃供自己娛樂一樣，千百年來，人類一直在對水果進行雜交和培育，以使它們更對人類的胃口，使它們更甜，使它們的種子更少，纖維更少。

If you look at an ancestral banana, it's tiny, it's full of seeds, it's quite dense and it's not very sweet.

如果你看一下祖傳的香蕉，它很小，種子很多，密度很大，而且不甜。

If you look at a banana today, it's very sweet, very little fiber, very little seeds, super easy to eat.

現在的香蕉很甜，纖維很少，籽也很少，吃起來超級方便。

Humans have been creating these fruits to be extra juicy and extra sweet and extra full of sugar.

人類把這些水果做得特別多汁、特別甜、特別富含糖分。

So that's one thing to note.

是以，這是需要注意的一點。

The fruit you see today in the supermarket is not natural.

今天你在超市裡看到的水果並不是天然的。

However, a piece of fruit still has fiber in it.

不過，一塊水果中仍然含有纖維。

And fiber is protective, as I explained at the beginning.

正如我在開頭所解釋的，纖維具有保護作用。

Fiber helps reduce the glucose spike of a meal because it creates that mesh in the intestine.

纖維能在腸道中形成網狀結構，是以有助於降低進餐時的葡萄糖峰值。

So if you want to eat something sweet, eating fiber is still the best.

所以，如果你想吃甜食，吃纖維還是最好的。

Sorry, eating a piece of whole fruit is still the best thing to do because of that fiber blunting the spike from the sugar.

對不起，吃一塊完整的水果仍然是最好的選擇，因為纖維素能抑制糖分的飆升。

The problem arises when we denature that piece of fruit.

當我們將這塊水果變性時，問題就出現了。

So maybe we're going to juice an apple.

所以，也許我們要給蘋果榨汁。

As a result, we're removing all the fiber from the apple and we're concentrating the sugar that was already being concentrated for centuries by humans in that whole apple.

是以，我們去掉了蘋果中的所有纖維，把人類幾個世紀以來濃縮在整個蘋果中的糖分集中起來。

When we dry fruit, we take away all of the water.

當我們烘乾水果時，就會帶走所有的水分。

So we concentrate the sugar and we eat way more pieces of dried fruit than we would a regular fruit.

是以，我們濃縮了糖分，吃的乾果比普通水果多得多。

And what's, I think, particularly concerning about that is there's quite a few companies now which are targeting children with dried fruits.

我認為，尤其令人擔憂的是，現在有很多公司都在用乾果來對付兒童。

And I think many parents are, again, I always say this and I want to reiterate this point.

我想很多家長都是這樣，我總是這麼說，我想重申這一點。

I genuinely believe that all parents are doing the best that they can in the context of their life situation, the context of their knowledge.

我真誠地相信，所有家長都在根據自己的生活狀況和知識水準盡力而為。

But I'm not sure that those dried fruit packets are the best thing to be giving our kids, particularly on an empty stomach.

但我不確定給孩子吃這些乾果包是不是最好的選擇，尤其是在孩子空腹的時候。

Yes.

是的。

Although you could argue that dried fruit is better than candy because at least it has some fiber in it.

雖然你可以說乾果比糖果更好，因為它至少含有一些纖維。

But what would be even better if you really want to give dried fruit would be to pair it with some nuts, for example.

但是，如果您真的想給乾果配點堅果，那就更好了。

So you make a little snack with a few dried apricots and then some pecans or whatever.

所以，你可以用一些杏乾和山核桃之類的東西做成小點心。

That's better because you're putting some clothes on the carbs, right?

這樣更好，因為你給碳水化合物穿上了衣服，對嗎？

I get it.

我明白了。

And that's what I love about all your suggestions.

這就是我喜歡你們所有建議的原因。

They can be applied by anyone in any situation, no matter what diet they're following.

任何人在任何情況下，無論採用何種飲食習慣，都可以應用這些方法。

Yes.

是的。

Little hacks, little tweaks just to make things a little bit better than they would have otherwise been, right?

一些小技巧、小調整，只是為了讓事情比原來更好一點，對嗎？

Exactly.

沒錯。

We're not talking like big overhaul of your life, of your food habits.

我們並不是說要對你的生活和飲食習慣進行大刀闊斧的改革。

No, no, no.

不，不，不

Small tweaks, big impact.

小調整，大影響。

Yeah.

是啊

Adding those nuts into the dried fruit, you can see how it could be really tasty.

在乾果中加入堅果，你會發現它真的很美味。

Yeah, absolutely.

是的，當然。

And change the blood sugar response.

並改變血糖反應。

Absolutely.

當然可以。

Now, I had a thought there, Jessie.

我有個想法 傑西

A lot of the time, the cultural wisdom that's there, we're now learning the modern science again.

很多時候，我們正在重新學習現代科學中的文化智慧。

That's why that works.

這就是為什麼它能起作用。

Now, the only place where I think your recommendations don't match up with certainly the ancient wisdom that I'm aware of is with fruit on empty stomachs.

現在，我認為你的建議唯一與我所知的古代智慧不符的地方就是空腹吃水果。

Because I know in Ayurvedic medicine for many years, they had been talking about if you're eating a piece of fruit, have it before your meal, because then it's digested really easily and it doesn't then sort of fester on top of your meal afterwards.

因為我知道，多年來，阿育吠陀醫學一直在說，如果你要吃水果，那就在飯前吃，因為這樣很容易消化，也不會在飯後發酵。

Now, first of all, I welcome your thoughts on that.

現在，首先歡迎各位就此發表看法。

But just a little addition there.

不過，這裡要補充一點。

Based on what you just said about the fact that the way fruit is bred now compared to how fruit was bred in the past, maybe two or three thousand years ago, the fruit that we were getting, lower in sugar, not quite as sweet.

根據你剛才所說的事實，現在培育水果的方式與過去培育水果的方式相比，也許兩三千年前，我們得到的水果含糖量較低，不那麼甜。

Maybe that worked then.

也許當時這招還管用。

Maybe it doesn't work so well now.

也許現在效果沒那麼好了。

I don't know.

我不知道。

But what's your sort of perspective on that?

你對此有何看法？

Well, this is a very common question.

嗯，這是一個很常見的問題。

And I was fascinated by it.

我對此非常著迷。

I was like, OK, where does this come from?

我當時想，好吧，這是從哪裡來的？

Like, why do we think that fruit rots in the stomach if it's eaten last?

比如，為什麼我們認為水果最後吃會爛在肚子裡？

And through my research, I found that there was a doctor in the Renaissance who said that fruit, and this is a separate branch from the Ayurveda stuff, but this doctor said that if you eat fruit after a meal, it's going to rot and putrefy in your stomach and create all these vapors and stuff.

通過研究，我發現文藝復興時期有一位醫生說過，水果是阿育吠陀學的一個分支，但這位醫生說，如果你在飯後吃水果，水果會在胃裡腐爛變質，產生各種蒸氣之類的東西。

That doctor just said that.

剛才那個醫生說的

I mean, I don't know where he pulled that out of, but it just is not true.

我的意思是，我不知道他從哪裡聽來的，但這不是真的。

Like, nothing actually rots or putrefies in the stomach.

比如，其實沒有什麼東西會在胃裡腐爛或腐敗。

So, that particular thing about the rotting is just not true.

是以，關於腐爛的說法是不正確的。

Nothing can rot in the stomach, actually.

其實，沒有什麼能爛在肚子裡。

So, there is this ancient wisdom about having the fruit on an empty stomach or at the beginning of a meal.

是以，有一種古老的智慧，即空腹或在餐前吃水果。

And to that I say, well, we have two opposing views, right?

對此我要說，我們有兩種截然相反的觀點，對嗎？

We have the glucose science, which says if you want to eat something sweet, the best time for your glucose is at the end of a meal.

我們的葡萄糖科學表明，如果你想吃甜食，血糖的最佳時間是餐後。

And we have ancient wisdom that could also, you know, have some really good sources.

我們有古老的智慧，你知道，這些智慧也可能有一些非常好的來源。

So, maybe where we land is if you don't feel any discomfort by eating fruit after a meal, maybe you do that.

所以，如果飯後吃水果沒有任何不適感，那就吃吧。

And if you're somebody and your body's like, no, it's not working, maybe it gives you bloating or whatever, then you switch it up, you know?

如果你是某人，而你的身體覺得 "不行"，可能會讓你腹脹或其他什麼的，那你就換一種，你知道嗎？

It's up to you to sort of tailor these recommendations to other things going on in your life.

你可以根據生活中的其他事情來調整這些建議。

So, what you're recommending is we take a pragmatic, nuanced approach to our health.

所以，你的建議是，我們要採取一種務實的、細緻入微的方法來對待我們的健康。

Mind-blowing!

震撼人心

It's 2023, that's not the way it goes.

現在是 2023 年，事情不是這樣發展的。

Yeah, I know, I know.

是的，我知道，我知道。

And I think this is also why, you know, my work has been so well received, is that it feels fresh and nice and it's no longer an extreme diet.

我想這也是我的作品廣受好評的原因，因為我的作品給人一種新鮮、美好的感覺，不再是極端的節食。

It's not like cut out entire food groups.

這並不是說要砍掉整個食物種類。

It's like, okay, guys, I think we're over diets.

這就像，好吧，夥計們，我想我們的節食已經結束了。

Personally, I would rather we never, ever have any diets ever again.

就我個人而言，我寧願我們再也不要節食了。

So, what about we use all this recent science and we find these principles that are easy, that have a big impact on our physical and our mental health, that are not very hard, don't cost any money.

那麼，我們利用所有這些最新科學，找到這些簡單易行、對我們的身心健康有重大影響、不太難、不花錢的原則，怎麼樣呢？

And how about we do that?

我們這樣做如何？

And people seem to be quite happy with that approach.

人們似乎對這種做法非常滿意。

Jessie, it's almost impossible now to have the audience size which you have and not get pushed back.

傑西，現在要想擁有像你這樣的觀眾人數而不被排擠，幾乎是不可能的。

Okay, I'm sure it's technically possible, but I would say it's almost impossible.

好吧，我相信這在技術上是可能的，但我要說這幾乎是不可能的。

If and when people push back against your work, what is the common thing they say and how do you respond?

如果有人反駁你的作品，他們通常會說什麼，你如何迴應？

So, I've experienced like multiple waves of this and I sort of categorize pushback or criticism in two camps.

是以，我經歷過多次這樣的浪潮，我把推回或責備分為兩個陣營。

So, there's like the stuff that really I can't do anything about, for example, people who don't want to hear any information about food because maybe they had an eating dessert in the past, maybe they're just like, no.

所以，有些事情我真的無能為力，比如，有些人不想聽到任何關於食物的資訊，因為他們過去可能吃過甜點，可能他們就是不喜歡。

So, for those people, my work is like, they just hate it because I'm talking about food.

是以，對於那些人來說，我的作品就像是他們討厭的東西，因為我在談論食物。

Those things I don't really pay attention to because, you know.

這些事情我並不太在意，因為，你知道的。

It's not for them.

這不適合他們。

Exactly.

沒錯。

And then you have the useful criticism.

然後是有用的責備。

And from the beginning of the Glucose Goddess project, I've always really listened to feedback, whether it's in comments or in DMs or in real life.

從 "葡萄糖女神 "項目一開始，我就一直認真聽取反饋意見，無論是評論、DM 還是現實生活中的反饋。

Because my purpose here is to make science accessible, to make it inclusive, to make sure that I'm serving the people that I want to give this information to.

因為我在這裡的目的是讓人們能夠了解科學，讓科學具有包容性，確保我為我想提供這些資訊的人們服務。

So, I would say the biggest criticisms have been from people with type 1 diabetes.

是以，我認為最大的責備來自 1 型糖尿病患者。

Maybe this was a year ago that it started happening, that they didn't like that I was using a glucose monitor as a person without diabetes.

也許這是一年前開始發生的事情，他們不喜歡我作為一個沒有糖尿病的人使用血糖監測儀。

And I really listened very carefully to this because a lot of people were sharing with how saddened it made them that I was like showing my glucose monitor like, hey, I'm wearing a glucose monitor.

我真的很認真地聽了，因為很多人都在分享，我展示我的葡萄糖監測儀讓他們多麼難過，就像，嘿，我戴著葡萄糖監測儀。

And for them, it was a device that they need to survive.

對他們來說，這是一種生存所需的裝置。

And so, I really took that to heart.

是以，我真的把這句話記在了心裡。

And I started thinking a lot about my glucose monitor approach and, you know, whether I think it's for everybody.

我開始思考我的葡萄糖監測方法，你知道，我是否認為它適合每一個人。

I stopped also posting photos of myself with the device being like, hey, glucose monitor.

我也不再發布自己帶著設備的照片了，就像，嘿，血糖監測儀。

Now, I really am just like, I'm using it to make the illustrative graphs, but I no longer use it as like a fashion statement.

現在，我真的只是喜歡用它來製作插圖，但我不再把它當作時尚宣言。

Yeah.

是啊

You know?

你知道嗎？

So, that was really, really helpful.

所以，這真的非常非常有幫助。

I think another thing that people push back on is the clothes on carbs thing.

我認為人們反感的另一件事是碳水化合物上的衣服。

They say, yes, but if you take it to an extreme, it could be harmful.

他們說，是的，但如果走極端，就可能有害。

Like, as I explained at the beginning, you could put two pounds of butter on a piece of bread and that would reduce the spike, but you need to have more nuance.

就像我在一開始解釋的那樣，你可以在一塊麵包上放兩磅黃油，這樣就能減少峰值，但你需要有更多的細微差別。

And that I think I really addressed it in the book quite well.

我認為我在書中很好地解決了這個問題。

I think you do address it really well.

我覺得你說得非常好。

I think, you know, I've read both books and I think you're really clear that this is not to stress you out, right?

我想，你知道，我讀過這兩本書，我想你真的很清楚，這不是給你壓力，對嗎？

This is not necessarily to be applied in every situation.

這並不一定適用於所有情況。

This is to try and help you, right?

這是為了幫助你，對嗎？

Yeah, sure.

是的，當然。

In an ideal world, we'd all eat an exclusively whole food diet that was naturally stabilizing our blood sugars.

在一個理想的世界裡，我們都會食用純天然的全食物飲食，從而自然地穩定我們的血糖。

But the reality is most people, or at least many people, are going to struggle with that.

但現實情況是，大多數人，至少是很多人，都會為此而掙扎。

Yes.

是的。

And I think, particularly in the second book, this new book, the testimonials, I just love reading them.

我覺得，尤其是在第二本書，也就是這本新書中，我很喜歡讀那些推薦信。

You know, you mentioned eating disorders.

你知道，你提到過飲食失調。

There is a testimonial, right?

有推薦信吧？

There's a testimonial, I can't remember which book it's in, about bulimia and how a young lady, I think, with bulimia said your method has really helped them.

有一篇推薦信，我不記得是哪本書裡的了，是關於暴食症的，我想是一位患有暴食症的年輕女士，她說你的方法真的幫助了她們。

And before you answer, I've quite a lot of thoughts on what you just said.

在你回答之前，我對你剛才說的話有很多想法。

And, you know, I've been trying to communicate health messaging to the public since maybe 2014 now, through TV shows, books, podcasts, whatever it might be, right?

而且，你知道，也許從2014年開始，我就一直試圖通過電視節目、書籍、播客等方式向公眾傳達健康資訊，對嗎？

And you simply cannot anymore communicate health information and not get pushback.

你再也不能在傳播健康資訊的同時不受到反擊了。

And the reality is not all information is for everyone, right?

而現實情況是，並非所有資訊都適合所有人，不是嗎？

I try, I think like you do, to be as compassionate as possible when putting out that information.

我想，我和你一樣，在發佈這些資訊時，儘量做到富有同情心。

And now I can be relatively detached if and when pushback comes and go, yeah, I can actually learn from that.

現在，我可以相對超脫，如果遇到反駁，我會說，是啊，我其實可以從中吸取教訓。

That's a good point.

說得好。

Or I actually disagree with that.

或者說，我其實不同意這種說法。

Or I can see that that person is being really, really triggered by something.

或者我可以看出，那個人真的是被某些事情觸發了。

This ain't about me.

這與我無關

This is about them, right?

這是關於他們的，對嗎？

So I think taking a compassionate approach to that has been really helpful.

是以，我認為採取一種富有同情心的方法真的很有幫助。

I understand what you're saying about the type 1 diabetics and I can understand why certain members of that community may feel like that.

我理解你所說的 1 型糖尿病患者的情況，我也能理解為什麼該群體的某些成員會有這種感覺。

But technology and progress is going to come in every form.

但技術和進步會以各種形式出現。

CGMs are here.

CGM 在這裡。

They're here to stay.

它們會一直在這裡。

They're only going to get more and more popular.

它們只會越來越受歡迎。

I do believe they can be a valuable tool for some people with the right education, with the right context.

我確實相信，對於一些接受過正確教育的人來說，在正確的背景下，它們可以成為一種有價值的工具。

I think they can be an incredible tool for the right person.

我認為，對於合適的人來說，它們可以是一種不可思議的工具。

Yeah.

是啊

And to be fair, there's a whole other part of the community of people with type 1 diabetes who are super happy that I'm wearing one because it destigmatizes it for them.

而且公平地說，社區裡還有一大部分 1 型糖尿病患者，他們非常高興我穿上了這身衣服，因為這對他們來說消除了糖尿病的恥辱感。

There you go.

這就對了。

So there's always, you know, pros and cons.

是以，利弊總是存在的。

And on the eating disorders front, I really got very interested in this topic.

在飲食失調方面，我真的對這個話題產生了濃厚的興趣。

And I spoke to many experts on the subject because I got a few comments being like, oh, these rules are just an eating disorder waiting to happen.

我和很多專家討論了這個問題，因為我收到了一些評論，比如，哦，這些規則只是一種飲食失調，等待發生。

And I thought that was really unfortunate that, you know, we need to nuance something that's a diet and that's really unhealthy, unscientific, completely random and could cause some difficult behaviors, but also with advice that people need because people are so, and that was a tough one for me to get through.

我認為這真的很不幸，你知道，我們需要對飲食這種不健康、不科學、完全隨意、可能導致一些困難行為的東西進行細微的調整，但同時也要給人們提供他們需要的建議，因為人們是如此，這對我來說是很難理解的。

I was like, okay, how, like, where do I land?

我當時想，好吧，那我該怎麼降落呢？

Like, what's true about not wanting to encourage disordered eating?

比如，不想鼓勵飲食不規律是真的嗎？

And what's true about wanting to give these very important pieces of information that are life changing and potentially life saving?

那麼，想要提供這些改變生活、有可能挽救生命的重要資訊，又是真的嗎？

So, but it's an ongoing journey, you know, the pushback.

所以，但這是一個持續的過程，你知道的，推倒重來。

I try to learn from every thing that happens.

我努力從發生的每一件事中學習。

Yeah, you get this.

是的，你明白這一點。

I've definitely had it when we've done podcasts on fasting before.

以前我們做關於禁食的播客時，我肯定也有過這樣的經歷。

And I've thought long and hard about this.

我對此深思熟慮了很久。

Is this irresponsible?

這是否不負責任？

Should I be doing it?

我應該這樣做嗎？

And where I've landed is, you know, I try and caveat it.

我的出發點是，你知道，我試著提醒自己。

I try and make sure in the introductions to each podcast, we say this may not be suitable for people who are recovering from or suffering with eating disorders.

我儘量確保在每次播客的介紹中，我們都會說這可能不適合正在康復或患有飲食失調症的人。

Having said that, some people with eating disorders find fasting incredibly useful.

儘管如此，一些患有飲食失調症的人發現禁食非常有用。

I know that because people are fed back.

我知道這一點，因為人們反饋了意見。

And also, let's just look at what's going on around us.

另外，讓我們看看我們周圍發生了什麼。

You know, in America, what is it?

要知道，在美國，這是什麼？

88 or 90% of people may be metabolically unhealthy, right?

88%或 90%的人可能新陳代謝不健康，對嗎？

Stabilizing their blood sugar is going to save their life.

穩定他們的血糖將挽救他們的生命。

Yeah, exactly.

是啊，沒錯。

Right?

對不對？

Exactly.

沒錯。

So, and I think we all, and I know it's hard because I know sometimes it's parents of kids who are struggling.

所以，我想我們都知道這很難，因為我知道有時是孩子的父母在掙扎。

They've got like a 12 year old or a 14 year old who's really struggling with an eating disorder.

他們有一個 12 歲或 14 歲的孩子，正在與飲食失調作鬥爭。

And then they get often, and I can totally understand it, feel very defensive and upset when they see certain posts.

我完全可以理解，當他們看到某些帖子時，往往會感到非常自衛和不安。

But I'm not sure I have the solution to it apart from trying to approach these things with compassion.

但是，除了嘗試用同情的態度去對待這些事情，我不知道自己是否有解決的辦法。

Yes.