Leveraging language can help us achieve our communication goals.

Join me as we take a deep dive into wording.

My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today, I am really excited to speak with Jonah Berger.

Jonah is no stranger to Stanford and the GSB.

He was an undergrad here and then went on to the GSB to earn his PhD.

He studied with one of our previous guests, Chip Heath.

Jonah is now a professor at Wharton, a consultant, speaker, and author of several incredibly educational and fun books, including Contagious, Why Things Catch On, The Catalyst, How to Change Anyone's Mind, and Invisible Influence, The Hidden Forces That Shape Behavior.

I look forward to discussing Jonah's research, his writings, and his new book, Magic Words.

Welcome, Jonah, and thanks for being here.

Thanks so much for having me.

Yeah, I'm super excited for our conversation.

Let's jump right in.

Persuasion and influence are topics that our listeners are thirsty to learn more about.

In your book, Contagious, Why Things Catch On, you talk about what makes ideas, products, and services become popular.

Can you distill down a few of the key tools and tactics we can deploy in our communication to help our ideas catch on?

Yeah, so I think one of the main takeaways from that book is the power of word of mouth and how to use it.

So whether we're making a presentation, whether we're selling a product, we often want people to support what we're doing.

And sure, what we do matters.

What we say in that presentation or as marketers, what we say in an advertisement might have an impact, but we can have a much larger impact if we can get other people talking about our stuff, if we can turn customers into advocates, if we can turn listeners and colleagues into supporters, if we can get them to share a message, not only will we have more reach, we reach a broader set of people with that message, but we'll have much more impact.

And so Contagious is all about, yes, word of mouth has power, but how do we get it?

And so I spent a long time studying the science of word of mouth, why people talk and why people share about some things rather than others.

We've looked at thousands of pieces of online content, tens of thousands of brands, millions of purchases around the United World.

Again and again, we saw the same six factors come up.

So in Contagious, I talk about those factors that drive word of mouth and drive consumer behavior and more importantly, how we can leverage them to craft contagious content, how we can leverage them to build messages and ideas and products and presentations that will spread and catch on.

Certainly word of mouth is powerful.

I find myself looking for things to watch and listen to based on what my friends tell me and products to buy.

What's one or two techniques that can help word of mouth develop?

Sure.

The first big principle I talk about is something called social currency.

And the very simple idea there is the better something makes us look, the more likely we are to talk about it and share it.

So I talk about a story of a bar, for example, hidden in a hot dog restaurant.

You walk down a flight of stairs, there's this hot dog restaurant, but in the corner of the room is a phone booth and if you go into the phone booth and you dial a number, someone will pick up the other line, they'll ask you to have a reservation.

If you're lucky and you have one, the back of that phone booth opens and you get let into a secret bar called Please Don't Tell.

And what I love about that story is, first of all, you know, everyone, everyone can understand that story, that sort of hidden information, really cool stuff.

This place is hugely popular though, never advertised, no sign on the street, no sign inside the restaurant.

How did they get so much attention?

And they did something really, really simple.

They made themselves a secret.

And if you think about it, there's a little secret about secrets.

If you think about the last time someone told you something and they told you not to tell anybody else, what's the first thing you probably did with that information?

Yeah, told somebody.

You told somebody.

Because having access to information makes you look good, makes you look smart, makes you look in the know.

And so the idea of social currency, it's not just about secrets, but it's about we're more likely to share things that make us look good than make us look bad.

If I'm the first person to adopt a new product or service, if I have information that not everyone else has access to, if something really good or cool or exciting happens to me that makes me look smart, I'm more likely to share it.

We talk about frequent flyer status because it makes us look good to our peers.

We talk about a new album coming out because it shows we're ahead of the curve.

And so the key insight there is as communications professionals, as individuals who want to get the word out, we often spend a lot of time thinking about us, our message, our idea.

We spend a lot less time thinking about how the audience will look if they tell people about it.

When I'm selling a product, maybe I make a perfect advertisement and I want to make sure that everyone will love the ad, but I don't think as much about, okay, well, if someone sees that, how are they going to look if they tell their friends about it?

Because the better that's going to make them look, the more likely they'll be to talk about it and share it.

Wow.

I love that insight.

I want to know where that bar is.

And I have to tell you that we often speak on this podcast about knowing your audience and taking time to understand what they need.

And you're adding an additional layer to that, which is, it's not only what they need, but how does your message impact them and how they feel, how they look, and that can lead you to greater success.

And I have to tell you, you use that technique on me as in preparation for this interview, you sent me a copy, an advanced copy of your new book, Magic Words.

I read it.

I told lots of people I know that it's a great book and that they should pre-order it as a result of having that information.

And I have to share with you, some of my colleagues think I'm smarter because of what I shared from your book.

So you helped make me look good and you helped me become an evangelist.

So thank you for that.

And I'd like to turn our attention to your new book.

In that book, Magic Words, you suggest impact on behavior.

In fact, I have a quote here.

You write, words suggest who's in charge, who's to blame and what it means to engage in a particular action.

Consequently, slight changes in the words we use can have a big impact.

So my question to you, Jonah, is what kind of impact are you talking about?

And can you provide one or two examples that demonstrate that quote?

Sure.

Yeah.

So what I find fascinating is we use words all the time, how we even to connect with our loved ones, we use words.

Yet, while we think a lot about the general ideas we want to communicate.

So maybe we get up in front of an audience and our goal is to sell them on a certain project.

We talk a lot about how great the project is.

We think a lot about the topic or the what we want to communicate.

We don't think a lot about the how we communicate it, the specific words we use when sharing ideas.

And unfortunately, that's a mistake because it turns out that subtle shifts in language can have a huge impact on everything from convincing clients and holding attention to connecting with loved ones in our lives.

And so by understanding the science of language, the power of language, how it works, and these types of magic words, we can increase our own impact, whether that means being more creative, being more persuasive, holding attention and captivating audiences.

In almost every area of life, we can use language to be more effective.

You've got me sold on that.

I have often told people that words matter.

We really have to think about the language we use and we need to make sure that that language is appropriate for our audience and serves a purpose for them and for us.

Do you have some examples you can share about language use and how it can help us achieve our communication goals?

Sure.

The book has six main types of words.

I like frameworks, so I put them in a framework called the speak framework, that's S-P-E-A-C-C, because I couldn't come up with something that had a K in it, but that stands for words that evoke similarity.

Posing questions is the P, E is for emotion, A is for agency and identity, one of the C's is concreteness, and one of the C's is confidence.

And so I'll pick just one example from posing questions.

I find questions really fascinating because they do a lot of work.

We often think about questions as collecting information, right?

Getting us an answer, but they also have a big impact on how people perceive us and how we see the world and perceive others.

There's some nice research, for example, on asking for advice.

And often we think we shouldn't ask for advice.

Why?

Well, first of all, we don't want to bother someone, right?

So if we're at the office and we've got a problem that we're stuck on, we could ask a colleague, we could ask our boss, but we don't want to bother them.

They may not know the answer and even worse, we're where they'll think less of us.

They'll go, well, why are you asking me?

Why couldn't you figure it out yourself?

And so we often don't ask for advice.

And not only is that bad because we don't get the benefit of others' thoughts and advice and collect that information, but it's also bad because we're missing out on a big opportunity.

Because when research examined asking for advice and in a variety of experiments and situations that looked at how people were perceived when they asked for advice versus did, not only didn't they find that asking for advice hurt, made us look less smart, less knowledgeable, have less expertise in a space, it actually had the exact opposite effect.

Asking for advice made people look better, not worse.

It made others think they were more competent, smarter and more knowledgeable.

And the reason why, very simply, is it takes advantage of people's egocentrism.

Everyone thinks they have great advice.

Most of us like ourselves, we like our own advice, we think we're pretty good, right?

And so when someone asks us for advice, we go, oh, that person must be really smart because they're smart enough for ask me for my opinion.

And so asking for advice makes us look better, not worse.

And you could say, well, hold on, is that really a type of words that's asking questions in general?

But there's also research on the types of questions to ask.

We often, in conversation, do sort of introductory questions.

At the beginning of this you probably said something like how are you?

And I probably said something that back like, fine, how are you?

Right.

And those are good questions.

They're not bad, they're polite.

But when researchers looked at a variety of different types of conversations, hundreds of different types of conversations, they found that a particular type of question was particularly impactful, quite useful in shaping how others perceive us.

It wasn't these introductory questions and it wasn't kind of mimicry questions when someone asked, what are you having for lunch, blah, blah, blah, what are you having?

Instead, it's a type of questions called follow-up questions.

And what follow-up questions are is when someone says something, I enjoyed this presentation, rather than saying, oh, I did as well, saying something like, neat, oh, what part did you like?

When someone says I had a really tough day, not just saying, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that, but oh, what made it so difficult?

Tell me more.

They're questions that follow up on whatever someone said and show that you're interested in collecting more information.

Because follow-up questions do a few things.

First, they show you're paying attention.

Being polite is easy, but they don't really signal that you're paying attention.

But if you took the time to listen to what someone said and follow up with what they said, it showed you pay attention and you care.

You're interested in learning more.

And not only does that allow us to collect information, but it leads people to like us more.

We show that we care about them and what's going on with their lives.

And so they like us more as a result.

And so even something as simple as the questions we ask and how we ask them can have an important impact on how we're perceived.

I really like this notion of the benefits of doing so because you as a teacher, as a teacher myself, we often tell our students, seek feedback, seek advice.

And many of them are shy to do that because as you said, they're afraid it demonstrates weakness or lowering their status.

And I love the fact that research suggests it actually bolsters it.

And clearly the types of questions you're giving examples to not only can help you getting input that you're seeking, but it demonstrates that you're listening and interested in what the other person says, which is a great way, as you said, of connecting.

I'd love to ask you about one other category of your speak framework.

And we talk a lot on this podcast about confidence, confidence and communication.

Any guidance around language use and confidence you can share?

Yeah, I think all of us in our own lives can think about someone that just exudes confidence, right?

They have so much charisma.

Whenever they speak, other people listen.

We can all think about someone in our own lives like that.

And if you look, whether you look at gurus, you look at startup founders, you look at leaders that are often thought about charismatic, they often have something quite in common.

They often do the same thing, which is they speak with a great deal of certainty.

And what do I mean by that?

Well, if you look at what some of these leaders do, you know, things aren't just going to happen.

They're definitely going to happen.

A course of action isn't just a potentially good course of action.

It's clearly the right course of action.

Everyone agrees this is unambiguous.

This is essential.

It's irrefutable.

It's guaranteed.

They use a lot of what some people call definites.