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But honestly, my opinion with thinking in this really aggressive type of tumor that is out with the melanoma vaccine, which seems so much more promising, and it's evaded the radiation, which is such a strong treatment, my feeling is that Panacure would not be, it might be a supportive thing, but I just wouldn't hold out great hope that it would really help with the metastasis.

Welcome to Dog Cancer Answers, where we help you help your dog with cancer.

Here's your host, James Jacobson.

Hello, friend.

Today's episode is a question and answer show, featuring a call that we received on our listener line about a dog with oral melanoma.

To answer this caller's question, we have, once again, our medical editor, Dr. Nancy Reese.

Dr. Nancy has been practicing veterinary medicine for over 30 years now, and as if that wasn't enough, Dr. Nancy also has a master's degree in preventative veterinary medicine and a PhD in epidemiology for good measure.

Best of all, Dr. Nancy loves sharing her knowledge and compassion with all of us dog lovers.

Once again, Dr. Nancy, thank you so much for being with us.

Hi, nice to be back.

Your listeners always seem to have some good, challenging questions, so it's always a good discussion with you.

Well, I think you will enjoy this question from Shirley in Arizona, who has a rescue dog.

Let's listen.

Hi, my name is Shirley Ernst, and I live in Arizona.

I have a rescue dog.

She's probably 11, 12 at most.

She has been diagnosed with oral melanoma.

I have been doing these radiation, the three days radiation, and then also she already got the four vaccines.

And I have been, you know, doing the diet and a lot of natural stuff, most from CBDs, four factor, et cetera.

And now she has the cancer in the mouth and also in the lymph nodes when she was diagnosed.

She was age three.

So like a week ago, I started to feel like her lymph nodes are getting bigger.

And I went to the oncologist and they took an X-ray and seems like she has a little tumor in her lungs.

So I just wanna have an advice what I can do next, because, you know, despite all everything that I have been done, so it seems like the stupid melanoma is not stopping.

And I was reading about PenaCure and well, I just wanna ask for any advice because according to oncologist, the only option that I have is to do chemo.

And she said that I only have 30% of chances.

Thank you so much.

Stupid melanoma, I like that.

And it's probably how a lot of people feel when they're grappling with cancer, stupid melanoma.

Dr. Nancy, this sounds like it's metastasizing.

What are your thoughts for Shirley?

Yeah, well, I'd have to agree with you of stupid melanoma because it is, especially the oral ones, they're just really awful tumors.

I mean, not that there's a lot of good tumors out there, but some are certainly worse than others.

And you can see all the things that she has done.

She's done the best possible treatments between the radiation and the vaccine, which when the vaccine came out, it really made us excited.

But obviously it isn't 100% effective in all cases.

And it's just such an aggressive cancer that despite those best efforts, unfortunately it seems to have spread to the lymph nodes and presumably the lungs as well.

So like I said, I think she wrapped it up the best saying stupid melanoma.

I think that's so true.

So the oral melanoma vaccine, let's talk a little bit about that.

And the idea of using both the vaccine and the rounds of radiation.

Yeah, so the radiation helps to shrink the size of it overall.

So it's a pretty good treatment in terms of getting rid of the bulk of the mass that's in the mouth.

The melanoma vaccine, I think it was kind of one of the first vaccine types of things we had for cancer.

So again, super exciting.

And they actually make it from a human version of a component that stimulates the dog's immune system to fight the cancer.

So it's kind of one of these interesting ones where the humans are actually helping the dogs.

Whereas usually most of the things are the dog studies help the humans.

So yay for us.

One health, we like this one health, one health.

Yes, we do, yeah.

So the idea of the vaccine is to, again, we're always looking for those ways to get the body's own immune system to attack the cancer.

Because that's what the body tries to do in general.

You know, we're always fighting off things.

I mean, there's probably so many things that happen to a dog or a human on a daily basis that could have run rampant and caused problems, but our immune system has effectively dealt with it.

So, you know, some cancers never get started because the immune system can go after it.

So once the tumor is already there, the idea is to supercharge the immune system to attack that particular cell type and try to reduce the effects of it.

But again, unfortunately, it's not sometimes a full-blown cure.

Well, I think you have your PhD in epidemiology, right?

Yes.

Yeah, so, I mean, vaccines are something that people talk about a lot these days, just to make sure, because we've covered this before on Dog Cancer Answers, but this vaccine is not something you do as a preventative.

Correct.

It's something you do once you have the diagnosis.

Right, right, it's very specific to, you know, train the body to go after those types of cells.

And the normal melanin or pigment-containing cells that exist in the body, I mean, that's what causes, you know, things like freckles or black pigment or the black spots in dogs' tongues.

They have melanocytes, which are the melanin-containing cells.

But when those cells go rampant and turn into cancer, they become the melanoma.

And those cells react a little differently than normal melanin cells.

So the vaccine helps to target the abnormal ones and get the body to fight off the cancer that way.

So going back to that first question I posed, clearly, Shirley sounds like she's a type A personality based on our personality structure.

So she's doing everything she possibly can.

Is it pretty common in a situation like this to use both radiation and the vaccine?

Yeah, it's definitely not uncommon, depending on what resources that particular guardian has available to them.

So some people are so against radiation that they would not consider that, and they might just use the vaccine.

Or they might try to surgically remove as much of the tumors they can if it's in an area that that's possible.

So you might do surgery and then the vaccine afterwards to try to prevent the metastasis.

So the metastasis that she is seeing now, in terms of going into the lymph nodes and seeing it in the lung, just pretty much textbook.

Yeah, unfortunately, it's just such an aggressive type of tumor that it is not uncommon to have it continue to spread despite the best efforts.

Well, Shirley asked about Panacur.

I wanna get into that right after the break.

We'll be right back.

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So one of the things that Shirley asked about was Panacur that she'd been reading about.

What are your thoughts on that?

Her oncologist says that, you know, just stick with chemotherapy, but what are your thoughts on Panacur?

And what is Panacur?

Good question there.

Yeah, the oncologist, I think, mentioned chemo was the quote, best option, but still only gave it a 30% chance.

And I think that's, you know, yeah, that's very realistic because it's not one of the most chemo-responsive cancers.

You know, something like lymphoma, we can say, wow, a lot of lymphomas do very well with chemo.

Melanoma, it's just not as effective anyhow.

So, you know, we've already got a cancer that's spread multiple places, so the chemo is a tough option when you've only been given 30% odds.

Panacur's a brand name, and so the drug is fenbendazole that's in it.

And a lot of people have probably heard of that or maybe even had their dog on Panacur at one point or another because it started out as a dewormer and it works for bizarre things that, you know, how we started trying to use dewormers for cancers.

I haven't quite made that connection.

And other things, I hear.

Yes, and other things.

So it's pretty amazing.

And this whole concept of using existing drugs for cancers, I find fascinating.

There's a whole subject, they call it the repurposing of drugs.

So they're looking at drugs that have been used for other things like deworming or certain antibiotics and things.

They go back and find that some of these drugs truly have anti-cancer effects.

And I think that's just a testament to the fact that we cannot seem to come up with truly things that cure cancer.

So people are desperately looking for outside the normal realm and trying to find drugs that have at least some benefit.

And with Panacur, or the fentanyl, that class of drugs, they actually have several effects that could potentially affect cancer.

It seems to sort of stimulate the P53 gene, which is the tumor suppressor gene.

And who doesn't want a tumor suppressor gene to be charged up when you've got cancer?

So it seems to have some effect on that.

It also seems to affect some things called microtubules, which is one of the ways that cancer tries to spread by forming these microtubules.

So the fenbendazole seems to have an effect on cutting off that signaling pathway.

And then there's some other pathways that affect apoptosis that Panacur seems to stimulate.

So you're causing potentially some cell suicide like we all want cancer cells to do.

So it seems like in test tubes, the Panacur seems to work pretty well against, well, I shouldn't say well.

It has some effect on some human melanoma cells.

And it's fascinating work, and I think it's a possible supportive type of thing.

But honestly, my opinion with thinking in this really aggressive type of tumor that is out with the melanoma vaccine, which seems so much more promising, and it's evaded the radiation, which is such a strong treatment.

My feeling is that Panacur would not be, it might be a supportive thing, but I just wouldn't hold out great hope that it would really help with the metastasis.

Unfortunately, I mean, I'm all for trying things because the odds are so bad, and Panacur is a pretty low-risk drug.

It doesn't have significant side effects.

I think I did see one case of a human dosing himself, and they caused some liver problems.

But with proper dosing, I think you can do it safely.

In a dog.

We humans like to use pet dewormers.

Do- Yes, we do.

So Shirley, basically her oncologist said, let's stick with the chemo.

Your thought is, Bianca's probably right.

Let's stick with that on this.

However, it sounds like Shirley is also doing these other variety of things in terms of diet and CBD and supplements.

Good stuff to be doing for the quality of life for her pup.

Absolutely.

I think, again, all those things help support quality of life, and as we've mentioned before, I mean, sometimes that, if they can maintain a quality of life, even if they still have cancer, that's a desirable goal as well.

Awesome.

Well, Dr. Nancy Reese, thank you so much for your input on Shirley's dog.

Well, I hope that something helps this dog because it's a really tough diagnosis to get.

And thank you, listener.

Oral melanoma is one of the tougher cancers that can attack our dogs.

And as Dr. Nancy went over, treating it often requires aggressive tactics, just like the ones that Shirley and her dog pursued.

If your dog has been diagnosed with oral melanoma or with any other cancer, we welcome you to join us on our support group.

You can find that at dogcancersupport.com.

That's dogcancersupport.com.

It is a vibrant community of dog lovers going through the same hardship.

You can find links to the resources mentioned in today's episode in the show notes, and you can find those at dogcanceranswers.com.

Also, if you have a question that you would like answered on a future episode of Dog Cancer Answers, well, just give us a call on our listener line, and you can do that at 808-868-3200.

That number again is 808-868-3200.

It is a recorded line available to you 24 hours, seven days a week.

Well, that is all for today's show.

I'm James Jacobson, and from all of us here at Dog Podcast Network, I'd like to wish you and your dog a very warm aloha.

Thank you for listening to Dog Cancer Answers.

If you'd like to connect, please visit our website at dogcanceranswers.com, or call our listener line at 808-868-3200.

And here's a friendly reminder that you probably already know.

This podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only.

It's not meant to take the place of the advice you receive from your dog's veterinarian.

Only veterinarians who examine your dog can give you veterinary advice or diagnose your dog's medical condition.

Your reliance on the information you hear on this podcast is solely at your own risk.

If your dog has a specific health problem, contact your veterinarian.

Also, please keep in mind that veterinary information can change rapidly.

Therefore, some information may be out of date.

Dog Cancer Answers is a presentation of Maui Media in association with Dog Podcast Network.