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  • All right guys, we have an interview with a good friend of ours, Chef Edward Lee.

  • He's done a lot of things.

  • He's most probably visible right now on the Netflix series Culinary Class Wars.

  • We have been binging the hell out of it and we're so proud of him because he's kicking fucking ass.

  • And I think Netflix has revealed seven episodes.

  • I think there's like another seven to go, but he's known at a long time and he's, you know, now a proud son of Kentucky and he's opening up, as important as all that is, he's opening up a very important restaurant in Washington D.C. called Shia.

  • And you're gonna learn more about why it's so special and why it's so important in a little bit.

  • And we're gonna get a slice of life.

  • Welcome to the Dave Chang Show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network, presented by Major Devil Media.

  • Thank you for your love, Tango, as always.

  • If you haven't already, you should subscribe to this podcast on Spotify or Overlords, or, you know, I understand there's still people slumming it on Apple Podcasts.

  • You can subscribe there too, but you can also head over to the new YouTube channel at The Dave Chang Show and watch full episodes and clips from this show.

  • Sometimes we do this live thing that we're still getting hang on.

  • And, uh, Dinner Time Live is back tomorrow night.

  • Yeah.

  • Yeah.

  • For our Season 2 Holiday Edition.

  • Woohoo!

  • And, uh, I'm not very excited about it, to be honest.

  • It's gonna be a great show, but I'm not excited because we're dealing with pumpkin spice.

  • I mean, that's how powerful the algorithm is.

  • The Netflix algorithm is so fucking powerful in that it's clearly my, my boss is getting me to cook with something that I have never worked with in my life.

  • I hate with the white hot heat.

  • I don't like pumpkin spice lattes.

  • I don't fucking understand it.

  • I hate pumpkin pie.

  • And now I have to make several dishes with it.

  • That's how powerful the algorithm is.

  • I have to do things against my will.

  • It's gonna be great.

  • It's gonna be great.

  • Tune in.

  • Watch me have a meltdown. 4 p.m.

  • Pacific Standard Time.

  • On, only on Netflix.

  • To watch a man torture himself.

  • And we're gonna do an interview with Chef Ed Lee in a second, but before that, a little segment we haven't done in quite some time.

  • Slice of Life.

  • Mm-hmm.

  • Where we talk about the neuroses, the idiosyncratic behavior, et cetera.

  • Unbelievable minutiae of everyday life.

  • Yes, and somehow we're gonna tie this in with Culinary Class Wars.

  • I think we're gonna make it happen.

  • So, this is something that has never happened to me, but I've heard this and witnessed my friends tell me these kinds of stories, not specifically this one, but what happens when your kids start to go to school, you basically make a whole new group of friends that I don't want.

  • Meaning the parents of your kids' friends.

  • My kids' friends, classmates.

  • And like, I have no choice but to make the circle that I've been trying to whittle down smaller.

  • Now it's just enormous again.

  • So we're at Hugo's friend's classmate's birthday over the weekend.

  • And there was Slice of Life.

  • There was literally a slice.

  • There's pizza from Triple Bean Pizza.

  • Delicious.

  • I believe Nancy Silverstone is still involved with that.

  • At least started it, yeah.

  • Matt, I think, is still the chef.

  • He used to be the chef at Mozza.

  • Anyway, we show up.

  • There's kids running around.

  • And I know a couple people there.

  • I see somebody across sort of the lawn, and I'm looking to myself.

  • I'm like, oh my God.

  • It's sort of a well-known person, and I don't know what a name drop, but I haven't seen them since before the pandemic.

  • And before, I'd probably see this person two or three times a year.

  • Love this guy.

  • And I was like, oh my God.

  • It's Dick Cheney.

  • And I just found out that, yes.

  • Listen, I do love Dick Cheney.

  • It's not Dick Cheney.

  • I call him Richard.

  • So I haven't seen him, but I've heard that my friend who I haven't seen had recently had twins, young twins that are like, you know, very young.

  • And this person that I'm looking across the distance, like a hundred feet away, wearing the same kind of clothes as my friend, looks fucking exactly like my friend.

  • And I don't care.

  • I even had to ask another person, does that person look like this person?

  • Because they're sort of like a well-known figure.

  • And he's like, yeah, I think you're right.

  • I'm like, wow, that's so crazy.

  • That's so crazy.

  • I can't believe that they're just here.

  • They're just here.

  • Children's birthday party.

  • I didn't know that.

  • Maybe the sibling of Hugo's friend.

  • I finished the conversation I'm in and then I walk up to him and he's got one of his kids in his arms.

  • And when I get closer, it's usually sometimes when you get closer like, no, no, no, that's not the person, right?

  • When you think you are.

  • In that moment, you're like, oh, that looks vaguely.

  • Maybe it is.

  • Let me get close to see.

  • Here's the problem.

  • The closer I got, the more I was like, oh, it's definitely this fucking person.

  • Okay, definitely this fucking person.

  • There's not a doubt in my mind.

  • And I'm like, yo, what's up, man?

  • Can't believe it's been like so long and he looks at me a little bit perplexed.

  • Like, of course, now retrospect, you gotta say like, yeah, it has been forever and I'm like, hey, where's your other kid?

  • He's like, oh, you know, here's the thing.

  • This person also had twins.

  • Get the fuck out of here, but not identical fraternal.

  • And I'm like, oh, the other ones are right over there.

  • I'm like, boy, girl, same.

  • And I'm like, what the fuck?

  • Like, this is crazy.

  • This is crazy.

  • But are you so you're in this conversation now, you're saying, hey, what's up?

  • Where's the other kid?

  • All of the biographical details, all the physical attributes are matching up.

  • Is there a doubt in your mind at this point?

  • Are you like, this is no, now I'm like, this is weird because they look so alike.

  • They both have twins.

  • Yeah, that I haven't met.

  • Yeah.

  • And I was like, similar age.

  • But are you, do you not want your now you're here?

  • So the doubt started to happen when I was like, why are you here?

  • I said, why are you here?

  • She's my sister.

  • The Hugo's friends mom who's hosting the party.

  • It's a sister.

  • She's like, she's my sister.

  • Of course.

  • Like is like, of course, I'd be here.

  • I was like, I know this person.

  • I know their family to a degree.

  • I'm like, I know he's got a sister.

  • I know he's got a mom.

  • They're also close.

  • I was like, what's going on here?

  • I know this person's got a brother.

  • I was like, oh, because you're like, oh, this the mom is so now I'm thinking that the mom of Hugo's friend is just randomly randomly relate.

  • I was like, oh, like I didn't know that.

  • I don't know.

  • So I'm like, oh man, I don't know.

  • Oh, this is not the first.

  • This is not your friend.

  • No, but I'm still looking at him like a weirdo being like in my head.

  • I'm like, I just want to touch his face because it's like he's Tom Cruise and Mission Impossible.

  • Like I was just expecting to rip it off.

  • I'm like, what the fuck man?

  • How is this possible?

  • I want to say, hey, has anyone said you look like X before but I didn't because still at this time after he told me that she's my brother.

  • I know enough about this person to know like that actually still checks out.

  • So I'm now super confused as what to do.

  • You keep on throwing out these little shibboleths to find out if this is the person you think it is, but they keep on passing the test.

  • Yes.

  • Yes.

  • Just keep on asking.

  • That's fucking hilarious.

  • But what made me realize and to this time today, I still don't know what the truth is.

  • I don't and I mean this.

  • I don't know.

  • And now I'm too embarrassed to text my friend, my actual friend.

  • Yo, man, like great seeing you.

  • Just to verify.

  • Yeah, what would what could you tell you?

  • You don't want to do that because I'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about?

  • Right.

  • I didn't know that his sister XYZ like I just didn't know.

  • So I still don't know the reason why I'm still in the belief that I might be right because it's just uncanny.

  • It's fucking uncanny really is is the questions.

  • I was asking this individual who I don't even know whose fucking name was the perplexion.

  • He was just so confused like I'm being civil and I'm going to try to be nice, but you are asking me the most asinine ridiculous questions humanly possible.

  • This is my favorite part of this story is thinking about this other person if it is in fact your friend and you know, they just happen to have been there and it matches up and that was your friend in his mind.

  • He is like God Davis being so fucking weird.

  • I know and that's why I'm not getting a text back.

  • But if it's not your friend, it's a total random doppelganger evil twin situation.

  • Then this doppelganger is going home being like I need the weirdest thing to happen.

  • David Chang came up to me.

  • He's going to go to Hugo's friend's mom.

  • Be like that guy.

  • FYI is fucking out of his mind.

  • You know that chef David Chang is fucking weird.

  • I heard he was weird, but he's really fucking weird.

  • So I didn't know and I was like should I text the mom?

  • I was just like, you know what?

  • I should just see what happens.

  • See what happened.

  • And I hope people understand that this wasn't like looks like.

  • When I say Mission Impossible mask, that's what it was like.

  • Like you were getting closer and it wasn't getting less.

  • No, it confirmed my suspicions that it was the person I had.

  • Okay, so that's that's the part where I'm just like I was at.

  • I was at like as an airport six months ago or something and somebody called my name out and I thought it was our friend Brandon Jew and I was like, oh, it's Brandon.

  • I want to go hug.

  • I want to hug this person with my arms open to hug Brandon.

  • And as I got within 25 feet, I was like, that's a fucking stranger, man.

  • Like put your heart back.

  • So like the fact that you were getting closer and it was becoming more clearly this person.

  • It's been four and a half years since I've seen this person too.

  • Also, I asked another person who I was in a conversation with and he's like, yeah, I think that's him.

  • So I was like, what am I supposed to do?

  • That's my slice of life.

  • I don't think anybody will ever believe me.

  • I don't think anybody will ever experience that kind of match up of a friend slash, you know, face off type situation where I see why I see why this is going to lead us into our Edward Lee conversation because Edward Lee great chef good friend amazing contestant fucking kicks ass in this show.

  • There's an episode where you'll see somebody that has a resemblance to me.

  • Okay, it's true.

  • And it's another one of those things where if you you're going to see Ed on this uncolonial class wars and you're going to be like, what is he competing against Dave?

  • And then the closer you get to the TV, the more confirmed it is.

  • But the fact that there's a person that looks somewhat familiar, not nearly as fucking handsome, right?

  • But you know, still handsome enough to fool people.

  • Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

  • Stunt double.

  • He competes against Edward Lee and I'm just going to listen going to give you a spoiler here.

  • So if you don't want it spoiled earmuffs, Edward Lee fucking crushes this man's soul.

  • Sends them back to the gates of hell.

  • The guy that sort of looks like me.

  • It's interesting.

  • You were very.

  • It is like, I think there can only be one person that looks like me.

  • This is why I was like, this is an interesting story for your therapist.

  • Like, why do you take so much joy in seeing somebody who looks exactly like you get beaten?

  • But now I see the answer is clear because he's destroyed the duffel cake.

  • All right, so that's the slice of life and it's a nice segue into our conversation with Chef Edward Lee.

  • We're joined with our friend, Chef Edward Lee, author, TV personality, humanitarian.

  • And he cooked at the White House.

  • Yes, he did.

  • For the steak dinner that I was not invited to.

  • But you've been in the game a long time and I haven't seen you in a bit and I know that we've seen each other a couple times, but I was telling everybody the last time I like really properly hung out with you was one of the drunkest nights, days I've ever been.

  • Hmm in Louisville with Sean Brock.

  • Yeah, that was a good time.

  • That was a lot of a lot of bourbon.

  • Yeah, things got a little out of control.

  • And the and the other thing that you've been up to the other reason we've got you on the show is you're going for that you were you were going for that culinary competition show EGOT.

  • I feel like you got this with culinary class wars, man.

  • You already took down all the all the biggest game in town in America and you were like, where can I find some more big game to hunt?

  • It was a little bit like Enter the Dragon.

  • It's strange, right?

  • It's like it's like Iron Chef meets Squid Games.

  • Yeah, it's all in Korean and I can't understand 90%.

  • Yeah.

  • Well, the funny thing is is you're talking to two of the biggest fans of physical 100 not because we aspire to look like those individuals, but we just thought it was a only in Korea kind of game show.

  • All right, if they try to do an American version, I don't know if would work.

  • I will definitely say that we were working diligently to come up with a cooking version of cooking 100 and then Netflix said don't please don't we're going to leave it to people that have done this and I will say we would love to do an American version of it, but you are starring in culinary class wars, which is basically for those that haven't even seen physical 100.

  • You're getting a lot of chefs some of the very very best in Korea and clearly Ed from America and it seems like some of the Korean chefs were trained in America as well.

  • So is it about a hundred right a hundred total?

  • So it's a hundred start.

  • Yeah, so it's 20 20 white spoons and in Korea everything is classist.

  • So may not translate to America, but you have 20 white spoons that are deemed as elevated as the the OG Masters and then you have 80 black spoons who are I guess how do they describe them in the show like a relatively unknown get a name.

  • They get a nickname.

  • They take away their names and I think up and coming struggling, you know fighting for their name and so they have to pick a nickname for themselves and only if you get to the finals do you get to reveal that's some Korean shit.

  • Yeah, you guys are crazy.

  • I just love some of the nicknames like genius chef.

  • Yeah, it's so fucking crazy man.

  • That is but like whatever you should it's on Netflix.

  • The hundred chefs participate.

  • It is cut from the same cloth of physical 100 if you guys like that show but Ed is the only American American rep way to represent Ed.

  • I know a lot.

  • It was like it's a lot to it's a lot on your shoulders, you know when you so yeah you so I'm sure you get you've you've done you've won Iron Chef you've done Top Chef like I'm sure you get every you tons of these sort of offers that come across your desk.

  • I'm sure you say yeah and I and I say no to all of them and you know, I stopped doing all that TV stuff a while back and they called me and I said no at first so it's like, you know, I don't think that's you know, a young person's game, but I don't know the more I thought about it and I you guys probably relate like that.

  • There's there's always this weird identity thing of being like am I too American?

  • Am I too Korean?

  • Am I didn't you know, who am I and they kept calling me and I kept calling them and I said, you know what I'm going to do this one thing.

  • Unapologetically Korean all in a hundred percent cheese to the to the nth degree and we're just going to go and and do it and so you'll also be able to spend that much time in Korea like sort of in that community of chefs was was really a special thing.

  • I'm glad I did it.

  • Well just not to ruin it for anybody, but we're recording this where Netflix has only released the first seven episodes.

  • Yeah, and we get to see Ed put the fucking Smackdown fucking Smackdown on an upstart Blackspoon put him in the motherfucking place.

  • So yeah, so round one you go.

  • Okay, I will get into it.

  • We'll get into this later because I just it's the craziest fucking show in the world.

  • We got to talk about that, but it is true round one.

  • You do a blind challenge against a Blackspoon.

  • You're a white spoon.

  • You're you're an elitist motherfucker.

  • One percenter you stand literally on a balcony overlooking all these unnamed Blackspoons beneath you you go head-to-head with the meat master.

  • That's his nickname and I will be honest which is weird because his name in Korean is gun pair, which is more would be like meet gangster.

  • No meet gangster.

  • I think it's kind of a cooler name than beat master, but I'll be honest.

  • I turn this on and I was like pretty high when I turn this on and I was like, oh fuck.

  • I thought Dave said no to this.

  • He said he wasn't going to do this show.

  • What the fuck is he doing battling Ed Lee and I also was a little bit confused.

  • I was not high.

  • I was also watching the show from and I was like, it's a straight Dave Chang doppelganger that you go head-to-head did that thought cross your mind at all when you met which I'll join into because the first time I saw most like wait, no.

  • You're at a distance.

  • I'm like, no, no.

  • So all three of us are in the same shaved head beard the whole thing.

  • It was it was Dave devilishly handsome.

  • I'm sick.

  • Excuse.

  • I mean the most important thing is if you watch this first episode that that motherfucker that guy is so attractive.

  • Clearly, I would be thinking that I hope everyone else in the world.

  • Is that true?

  • Sure, but the show is doing extremely well and the first episode we won't go too much.

  • Not that you need to divulge but you should watch it.

  • It's very entertaining and I did have this conversation with somebody that doesn't like actually I'll tell you Bill Simmons doesn't want to watch it because of subtitles.

  • I said, oh they have the dub.

  • It's done.

  • You can watch it dubbed as well.

  • I watch it in Korean to make myself feel better.

  • Like I know 50% of the things are said.

  • Oh, yeah, we should talk about it.

  • And how would you characterize your your Korean language skills?

  • My Korean is about on the level of a drunk third grader.

  • This is where I'm at.

  • My Korean is that of a well-trained dog.

  • You understand commands.

  • Yeah, you can trick when someone's angry or before I went on the show.

  • I actually hired a tutor.

  • Oh 26 year old kid was practicing to be a minister.

  • And I got yelled at him on a daily basis for like three weeks to brush up on my Korean and that made me feel really small.

  • By the power of God.

  • Christ compels you.

  • Why aren't you converting?

  • Putting us.

  • Okay.

  • So I'm sure the language barrier off the tell me if you feel otherwise like this shows crazy.

  • That first round is a blind tasting and then Korean food competition show.

  • That means the judges literally had blindfolds on when they're fed a bite of food and there was a show with Nigella Lawson.

  • Tony Bourdain.

  • Yes, great was on is called the taste.

  • Yes, and it was patterned really after the voice and it didn't work that well because you couldn't empathize with the judges that were tasting and I feel that the mechanics in the show did they've done something that has never been done in culinary competition to give you a real honest.

  • Like feedback on tasting something blind and clearly when you taste something blind you eat with your eyes as well.

  • But if you're strictly going by taste, it gives you an idea and then you can vote.

  • So the judges vote blind, right?

  • And if it's a tie, they can take the blindfolds off and interview whoever their judge, correct?

  • And I just jumped the gun to the the one-on-one battles.

  • But but so I guess my question is given given all that and like your your your drunken third grade command of Korean when they're sort of described when the producers are telling you what's about to happen.

  • Are you just like what the fuck are you saying?

  • It's gonna happen.

  • Am I misunderstanding this what's going on?

  • I there were most of the time.

  • I was just kind of lost in my own little space.

  • I had a translator in my ear, but she wasn't picking up on everything and so I would get like you that's a disadvantage for you.

  • You know, they would talk they would talk for like 15 minutes and then the translator in my ear would go you must fix seafood.

  • I'm sure they said something more than that.

  • You're like I'm losing some nuance here when you're doing your interviews or you're talking to people generally like give us a sense on your personal level.

  • Like what's going through your head when you're like, I'm going to speak Korean now.

  • I'm going to do my best to speak Korean.

  • I'm going to speak English.

  • Yeah, I mean I didn't listen.

  • I didn't I didn't want to I don't know.

  • I mean part of part of this was my own weird journey going back to finding some roots in Korea, you know, so while I was doing the show at the same time, I really wanted to learn Korean and kind of respect the culture and and feel something about it that you know being raised and living in America just don't have access to so I really tried to as much as possible speak Korean even though it was horrible.

  • Your Korean was very good.

  • It was very good.

  • I gotta say I think the prayers of the up-and-coming minister work because I was clearly on every vowel and every utterance of Korean from your mouth.

  • I was judging the fuck out of you and I was like I couldn't do that.

  • John I'll be honest with you.

  • I was more scared to speak Korean on camera than to cook.

  • Oh, yeah, like that was the thing that that made me nervous.

  • Can I can I funny story?

  • Yeah, we go we go there and there's a white guy on the show.

  • He's an Australian chef, but he's got a restaurant.

  • So really nice guy and you know, I'm in the green room with him and he's the only one there.

  • I'm like, oh finally I'm going to speak better Korean than this so we're speaking and speaking but he didn't tell me that he's married to a Korean girl and he's been living in Seoul for like 15 years and so we're talking and this Korean guy walks into the room and his Korean is perfect.

  • I mean like down to the inflection and I'm like, I'm so angry right now that they would just sandbag you like that.

  • That's fucked up.

  • I was going to say I don't think that's I don't think that's even wrong.

  • I think it's right.

  • I think that guy is cast specifically to make you look bad.

  • Like when I was doing Korean school in Korea and I was in the class with all the white people that were trying to learn the language and I was like that makes you feel so bad that your Korean is less than people that are learning it as like a third language fourth language.

  • Yeah.

  • Yeah, I'm so I'm so mad for you.

  • At least fuck that Aussie dude never, you know, tall poppy syndrome motherfucker, you know, never leave Australia.

  • What was on like the the production level like being in being in a Korean game show which you know, they're they're taking over right?

  • This is the thing.

  • Yeah, this is this is the template for the future.

  • What is it?

  • How different is it when it comes down to like you've cooked in Kitchen Stadium Iron Chef you cook in this like what's what how different is it on that production is production?

  • I think at the end of the day, but it is it's a massive set.

  • It's the it's the largest set I've ever seen and it's just like like most things Korean.

  • There's just a thousand people are running around everywhere.

  • You turn.

  • They're just like PA is just running everywhere.

  • I'm like it was it was an army of people behind the scenes, but you know, they did a great job and they like so efficient.

  • Like we just changed from one set to another, you know, next thing, you know, the whole the whole sets different part of it for me, you know, we filmed in chunks.

  • So it wasn't like everything was filmed in from start to finish.

  • So I had to fly back to America a couple of times during the whole thing.

  • I gotta say most of the time I'm jet-lagged, you know, it says it's like 4 or 5 in the morning for me when we're actually starting to cook.

  • Another disadvantage.

  • Honestly, this is not fair for Ed Lee.

  • We if you're an American listening to this, you should be outraged fucking outrage that they're treating our citizen like yeah, because they would I would get there, you know, you whatever you have a day to do it to acclimate but what are you don't acclimate a day takes two weeks.

  • I would yeah, it's some guy would write you to be like a 9 a.m.

  • Call time or 7 a.m.

  • I would drive up from wherever, you know, I just drove two hours and tired like I just fucking flew 22 hours fucking exhaust.

  • It's not right.

  • It's not right Ed.

  • So it's his performance even now.

  • It's now more impressive.

  • It is more impressive jet-lagged language barrier not getting the information and said this is like I recall.

  • I think that white guy didn't make.

  • They got everything they needed out of his career look bad for a second and said this is like a young person's game.

  • He's got you know, his his Korean is, you know, third grade drunk level like this came across your they asked you to like what were you what stops you from doing this Chang?

  • He's just said it the prospect of speaking Korean to Korean people like I get so nervous.

  • Listen, my Japanese is better.

  • But this is a muscle right when I was born.

  • I'm sure at the same thing.

  • The first thing would you learn was Korean we spoke Korean as kids.

  • But what happens if you become a paraplegic your muscles atrophy into nothing right and I didn't want anything to do with Korea.

  • So anything that was Korean language atrophied into nothing literally.

  • It's like my Korean memory looks like I'm yeah, you know, I don't know if it's easy.

  • I wonder if it's I wonder if that's hard for people to understand who didn't grow up in a household or like the reason why you can't say anything and I know Ed can attest to this.

  • There's so many fucking Korean people that were born just like us.

  • I know.

  • Because I told I feel the same thing if like I go to China or I go to anywhere with like Chinese people.

  • I'm just like fuck.

  • This is gonna be so humiliating as soon as I try to open my mouth and I feel like if they're if you don't grow up with like that expectation people don't understand how embarrassing it is.

  • I mean, I don't know if you feel this way like when I go to Lotte Mart or an Asian supermarket and they start speaking me to me in Korean.

  • I definitely understand what they're saying, but I'm like, oh, no, no, no.

  • I'm Chinese.

  • I don't want to embarrass myself further and I to Korean pride.

  • I don't want it.

  • It's too much and they and they judge you.

  • Oh, yeah, do they judge you?

  • Definitely judge you.

  • So I yeah, I much like you probably had a zoom call and there were like 20 people on it.

  • One person spoke English and they're like, so speak Korean.

  • I said, no.

  • Say things in Korean.

  • I'm like, absolutely not absolutely fucking not and it went on like a like a like a like a game a game of chicken.

  • No, speak Korean.

  • I was like, no, no, really.

  • Come on.

  • You can speak Korean.

  • And the longer went on.

  • There was no way I was gonna speak Korean.

  • There's too much pressure.

  • Everybody's and I just was like there.

  • Listen guys.

  • No, this isn't going to work.

  • It's like incredibly embarrassing not to be able to do that.

  • Yeah, or just like I did my zoom call and so they even I said they said do you speak Korean and I my first instinct is always to lie.

  • So I go.

  • Yeah.

  • Yeah, sure.

  • I speak.

  • My first instinct is always to lie.

  • So we do the zoom call and I mean and I'm speaking Korean the whole time two minutes into it two minutes.

  • They go.

  • You don't speak Korean.

  • Come again.

  • You don't speak Korean.

  • I go.

  • I'm speaking Korean right now.

  • They're like, no, no, you know, you're not.

  • You said it earlier.

  • You said you were less intimidated to cook than you were to speak Korean.

  • Like what did you in the dishes you're making in the you know, you're also doing a lot of like sort of collaborative cooking with with in teams.

  • Like did you feel like you were adjusting your cooking to the audience?

  • Yeah, you know, I again one one thing that you know, again, my little Korean journey that I'm on.

  • I don't know.

  • I just I made a decision on the plane ride over there that I You know, 2530 years of cooking that I really because I don't really cook Korean food.

  • We just opened a Korean restaurant just recently where I've been kind of rediscovering a lot of this and so I just made it a thing where I really only wanted to see what Korea had to offer and I just kind of wanted to surprise myself and you know, I would I would eat like Chuck got right which we all know but I would like taste it and go.

  • All right, that's fucking awesome.

  • And I've had it before but only with some and I'm like, can I find some other way to you?

  • So I would just I don't know.

  • My whole thing was like I didn't want to go all the way to Korea do this show and make like fried chicken, you know, like it just right.

  • Well, I gotta say the the the the salad that you made and for those that know there's a there's different kinds of kimchi clearly, but even of the pet you the normal Napa cabbage, there's different varieties in that by the age of it and that was really stinky old kimchi.

  • Yeah, and I was certainly blown away that you turned it into a light ethereal balance dish and I didn't even taste it but I could imagine it and I was like, oh wow, it's going a completely different direction.

  • So I was like really happy for you.

  • I was stoked that it was delicious because I wasn't I was like, what are you going to make?

  • Yeah, you know, would you what do you think?

  • Do you think you would you have made that same decision as Ed like just like I'm not going to cook what I cook like what do you think your approach is?

  • Can you can you like put yourself in those shoes?

  • Like do you think your food would translate or you'd be afraid?

  • No, I mean the thing is even though Ed I mean for those that are listening like he just said he doesn't make Korean food, but he's opening Korean restaurant like we're very hard on ourselves.

  • But the fact is Ed's growing up eating this the flavors are in his DNA.

  • He knows so it's not like he's learning a new language.

  • It's there.

  • So the ability to recall and plus he spent years cooking at a high level.

  • So it's now just like a it's different to be able to make Korean food now or to reinterpret what you think Korean food might be because he's not 15 years old 25 years old and he has all of this wealth of experience, but the flavors have never left But the expertise and the knowledge to be able to extract flavors and you know, put different combinations of foods together is clearly evident.

  • And I think that's what separates Ed from all the other guys that guys that can't speak fucking English.

  • The guys that you know, we don't have to serve in the military by no choice.

  • There's also this thing too and I do this culturally here like if you are Korean and you have only eaten Korean food and you've sort of been systematized into the canon of Korean food like when you see something like gochujang or or or you know doenjang your brain automatically goes to one thing and sometimes you get stuck in there.

  • I don't know.

  • Sometimes it takes like an outsider to look at an ingredient, you know, and I do this like to like even even myself.

  • I have certain guardrails that I can't get out of and I have white friends who are chefs, you know friends of mine and they'll like, you know, they'll taste like jajangmyeon and go.

  • Oh man, I could do this and this with it like even something that will shock me.

  • I'm like, oh, yeah, I never thought of that because we have cultural guardrails about what something should be but they're all just like I have that much less so than someone who grew up in Korea.

  • Got it.

  • And so that's that's kind of I don't know sometimes it's an advantage sometimes it's a disadvantage.

  • I think that's a that's really evident when it's okay.

  • So another you know, deeply Korean game show part of this is like you you you have your one-on-one opponent and then you walk through this sort of Hall of beautiful Korean refrigerators and you choose one blindly because you don't know what's inside of it for your signature ingredient, right?

  • And you get the aged you open the door and there's just a bowl of aged kimchi in there.

  • Like what is your reaction when you see this ingredient?

  • So I thought it was, you know, again, the I thought it was just kimchi.

  • I was like, yeah, it's cool.

  • It's kimchi and then they're like, oh, no, it's moving G and I'm like, oh fuck because I'll be honest with you.

  • I maybe had, you know, moving G like three times in my whole life.

  • You just you don't see that in America because it stinks.

  • It smells so bad when it gets to that level.

  • I love I had to quickly kind of like I had to quickly go and like I went to like a store in fucking Korea and found some kimchi in it, but I'm also staying in a hotel room.

  • So I have no idea what you know, are you staying with the other competitors?

  • No, because if they don't live there, so I was gonna I stay in the hotel.

  • I got more home advantage for these contestants.

  • I know.

  • I mean, I guess they can do shit.

  • They have a restaurant.

  • So I turned into I have a it's pretty funny.

  • I turned my hotel room into like a little staging kitchen.

  • Like I bought all this because I was like, I'm sitting in my hotel doing nothing.

  • So I, you know, I bought like cutting boards and a little stove top.

  • That's right.

  • American ingenuity.

  • Something that so Dave, at least I mean, we've made a lot of culinary TV.

  • Dave has participated in a lot of the sort of competition television stuff.

  • And you know, the competition is all real in America.

  • Obviously, there's there's compliance officers that make sure that it's real, but there is how do I say this?

  • Like there's a fakeness to a lot of it, especially when it comes to like the portrayal of how good that was or how the quality of the food was.

  • You've seen it all now on both sides of the ocean here.

  • Like give us a sense of the sort of quality of cooking that you're seeing culinary stuff on the show.

  • No, I think I think, you know, in some ways Koreans are like more honest or more like they really follow the rules.

  • And so I think a lot of it was authentically just brilliant cooking and I think it says a lot to the level of cooking that's going on in Korea right now, you know, everything from the high end to the sort of mom pop stores.

  • I just amazing stuff.

  • I'll tell you one little funny story, you know, they didn't want you to take pictures while we were there studio.

  • So they just put stickers over our cell phone cameras, you know, but this is how this is just goes to show how honest and Koreans are.

  • So I'm sitting there.

  • I turn to the guy next to my go.

  • Just take your sticker.

  • Just take the sticker off your picture if you want to and he looked at me with this look of absolute disgust and just turn to me go, why would you do that?

  • They asked us not to like, why would you even think that and it just and I felt like that little microcosmic story like was was kind of the whole production in the whole set like everyone was like, these are the rules.

  • This is how we do it.

  • We're going to follow it and you know, again thousands of people running this thing and they made of it's interesting to see it now because obviously when you're in it, you don't see the production value.

  • Well at if this was squid game and I was the guy controlling everything.

  • I would shoot that guy dead.

  • You take you take your sticker off the camera.

  • You're done.

  • Yeah.

  • No, it's like stop to the head.

  • This is entrepreneur.

  • This is guy thinking outside of the box.

  • You're you.

  • I had this thought shake though.

  • Like I mean, it makes me so you know, like you said in the beginning like we we watched physical 100 and like the you're like I think within the first 10 minutes you were texting just like we have to make culinary 100 like we have to do this but there's like little did they know when they were making physical 100.

  • They're like we're making good.

  • I mean, it's just I mean part of me is like should we just go to Korea and make a show first?

  • No, we can't because I can't speak Korean and the ministers now you're not going to work with me.

  • Can I ask when you're plating the dishes and this is always been my gripe for food competition shows.

  • This is also the reason why I just don't want to be a judge because the honesty never comes out when I say a dish is terrible.

  • It always gets stitched together.

  • That's a good dish.

  • But as a judge your people may not understand it's logistically almost impossible to eat a dish hot like a hot dish hot.

  • So what I always tell people like make cold dishes because they have to set up the shop, you know, it's not a seamless dishes done and then it goes you usually that food is like like dying when they call dying at the window restaurant is like that means that food is not getting from the kitchen to the table.

  • And I'm always like this is not maybe there's no way to do it.

  • And I remember having a conversation to the one person that spoke English on the same thing could they fix this and they're like, no, no, we have a lot of ideas to sort of address some of the shortcomings was the food able to get hot eating hot.

  • Was it hot or is it sometimes sometimes?

  • Yeah, and I think you know, like I I judge on Top Chef every now and then and they always tell you and you're sort of cognizant of like don't judge, you know, if you're having a super risotto, don't judge it based on temperature.

  • Just just imagine what this tasted like 35 minutes.

  • I think that's an impossible task.

  • Yeah, it is.

  • I did like in that first part of the show.

  • I mean, it's funny that you brought that up Chang because I I think there was like an interesting thing where it's it's what it's like sporty people cooking at the same time, but it is like when you're ready to be judged.

  • It's like, okay, the judges come over and taste your food at your station, which is an interesting I had never really seen that especially that kind of a scale.

  • I love the mosu chef just being I knew the show was going to be different when like the hominies the grandmas were going like getting 86.

  • I was like, oh shit.

  • This is the show that we've been promised.

  • Hey grandma, but yeah, it's like yeah, it tastes good, but it's not good.

  • You're you're going.

  • It's so good.

  • There is one that was brutal.

  • He was like the kid was so he was so excited.

  • It was like it's my birthday.

  • Just like oh, happy birthday.

  • You're going home.

  • That was the grandma.

  • That was like I made him like a giga like a stew and like yeah, but you didn't make any rice.

  • You can't eat this without rice.

  • You're going home.

  • It's so good.

  • It's so brutal.

  • I love it.

  • I love it and what else have you what else are you up to back here Stateside?

  • I'm actually getting ready to open a nonprofit restaurant in Washington DC.

  • It's going to be called Shia and one of the things that we're doing is that we're actually the main reason for the restaurant is a research focus where we're trying to figure out practical solutions where restaurants can be more sustainable and then we're going to publish papers so that any restaurant across the country can adopt what we're doing.

  • Do you remember when that video came out of the turtle and the plastic straw and every restaurant and bar started to ban plastic straws and we all felt great about ourselves that we've changed the world and I'm like, you know, I applaud anyone that gets rid of plastic from their bars, but like the amount of plastic that a kitchen goes through every single day is ferocious.

  • And so we're trying to figure out a way like we're going to do zero plastic zero gas and we're going to figure out how to reduce our waste by 50% and I just think that's something that's neat like as we as restaurants keep getting bigger and more and everything like we've got to figure out a way to sort of curtail some of the plastic that we're throwing into the environment.

  • So it's a project that we're launching.

  • So in other words, it's like a it's a test test ground restaurant.

  • Yeah.

  • Yeah, and what we do what slightly did, you know, and other other restaurants are zero plastic, but we're do two things.

  • We're going to record everything.

  • We're going to cost analyze it with labor analyze it and then we're going to publish a paper say if you decide to go this route, it's going to be more expensive, but exactly how much more expensive we don't really know but this way now we will have real data from a real restaurant and we'll be able to tell you.

  • Hey, listen, is it an extra 4% of your of your, you know, annual revenue that you're going to have to put into this if that makes you sleep better at night, you are you willing to do it or like we thought of generation ago when organic carrots organic vegetables came into this world, right?

  • A lot of the gripe was why would I pay double for a carrot?

  • It doesn't make sense.

  • But what they didn't realize was well, no if you go organic and you advertise it on the menu.

  • Will there be a set of people that are willing to pay higher prices to eat at your restaurant and that turned out to be true and I think given everything that's equal would you choose to eat at a restaurant that advertised zero plastic the stainage versus you know, if all things being equal, would you pay a little bit extra to go to a restaurant that was zero plastic and I think people would well, I think.

  • It's extremely difficult to tackle the subject something that needs to be done.

  • Chris clearly has his own organization not-for-profit for carbon footprint.

  • And again, people may not understand how much plastic and how much waste in general even a restaurant that claims that they're sort of minimal.

  • It's just sort of insane.

  • It is and it's a cost that gets subsidized and nobody really pays for that at all.

  • But I also have to commend you because it just seems on paper impossible to do, you know, and not that you can't do it Ed and I want to talk quickly about the not-for-profit and the people financially helping you.

  • I'm worried about the customers if they understand and you are right.

  • Some people are willing to pay more money.

  • But at the end of the day, I just strongly feel that most people don't want to pay more money for food.

  • And there's enough data to show that even people that want organic won't pay more for organic or properly done just because we're just brainwashed to say like oh I can say 25 cents or $2.60 and something.

  • So that's one thing and I think it's a it's an interesting project on so many levels.

  • But on one the one I'm trying to wrap my head around is the customer sort of digesting the concept of the restaurant and what they're willing to pay as a threshold.

  • So yes, you're publishing papers because this is arguably one of the most important restaurants to open up in America in ages.

  • And one of the things that that we you know, this whole sort of environmental stuff that's going on like one of the things that I truly truly believe is if you want people to change, you can't yell at them.

  • You can't shame them.

  • You can't lecture them.

  • You can't be righteous about it, you know, so part of our approach is we're going to do it and then we're going to just lay it out there and we're going to we're going to be transparent about our failures too.

  • Like we tried this didn't work clearly.

  • It's not going to you know in the bull fun and through that just hey, listen, if you want to get it if you only want to do 15% of what we did, that's fine.

  • It's better than nothing.

  • But what we don't want to do is lecture people and say look at it.

  • Look at how righteous we are.

  • You should be doing the same thing because I think that's the wrong approach and I think that's a lot of the resistance that you get from people because no one wants to go to a restaurant to lecture that.

  • Can I ask about the last thing we want to do is yeah, the lecturing aspect not to the customer but to your purveyors, right?

  • So you're asking people that deliver food and send you food and produce food to package it in a way that probably they don't do normally.

  • So how do you do that when you're receiving the product?

  • Well first I'll give you one small example, you know, a spice tub, right?

  • The one-pound spice tubs.

  • They all come in plastic, right?

  • Apricot, coriander, and then we collect them by the pallet full and we call the spice and we're like, do you want them back?

  • They're like, no, just throw them away.

  • So we throw them away.

  • So we went to every spice company and said, hey, if I buy tins and Muslim bags and I'll send them back to you when they're done and you refill them, would you do it?

  • And everyone said no.

  • Finally, we found a couple of companies that said yes, we'll do it, small companies, right?

  • And so they're paying a slightly higher price for it, but I said fine, we'll work with you.

  • We'll do it.

  • And then I said, listen, if you're going to work with us on this, I'm going to blow you up on social media.

  • We're going to feature you on our website.

  • We're going to, we're going to just, you know, you know, put this on a loudspeaker.

  • Maybe you get a couple more restaurant accounts because of this.

  • Maybe someone does this thing in Oakland and Detroit and Austin and whatnot, maybe in five years, the big spice companies lose 2% market share.

  • I guarantee you they'll change at that point.

  • So my thing is you don't do it.

  • You don't tell corporations what to do because they'll never do that.

  • What you do is you figure out how to hurt them in the wallet.

  • And if you can figure out a system where I'm not going to be the one that creates the system.

  • I'm just going to figure out the blueprint and see if other people want to follow it.

  • If a hundred other restaurants start doing it, you'll, you'll, they'll feel them in the wallet and then that's when they'll change.

  • So that's, that's kind of the impetus behind this.

  • So, so to Dave's point, I do, I'll work my way to a question here.

  • But to Dave's point, I, our friend, I think you know him too.

  • Our friend Anthony Mint had a restaurant in San Francisco called The Perennial, which was a very, very mission driven, like the core fundamental, you know, idea was that it's going to be the most sustainable restaurant in the entire world.

  • It was driven entirely by this mission and, you know, ultimately it failed.

  • Ultimately, not enough people came to eat this restaurant.

  • And I used to say to Anthony all the time, like Anthony's a great cook, but I was like, when people are choosing what restaurant they want to go for dinner, nobody says, people say like, oh, I feel like Thai or I feel like Chinese or I feel like Mexican.

  • Nobody says like, I feel like sustainable food.

  • So like Anthony, if you want this to succeed, pick a, pick a cuisine.

  • Think about the like diner experience first and the rest has to follow to your point of not being like lecturing people.

  • It's got to be, I was like, Anthony, make the most delicious Burmese food you can imagine and do it according to all of the principles you have, but lead with like what is delicious first and what's like going to be a great customer experience and then let them find the rest on their own.

  • It's really, really, really hard.

  • So like my question to you is, what is the food at XIA?

  • What is, what is like, what are people coming for?

  • It's going to be a Korean, Korean tasting menu.

  • So it'll be, you know, the stuff that I'm kind of on this weird Korean journey about.

  • So we're importing a few items from Korea and just figuring out what, what that, you know, in this, you know, I study a lot of immigrant food and I kind of, I love getting obsessed over the progress of immigrant food.

  • And I have this thing like, so whenever a food comes to America, whether it's Korean or Thai or Italian or Armenian, it comes in, the first thing, the first generation you see is mom and pop stores, right?

  • It's these people, they have no other way to make income.

  • They do what they do and that's how they make money.

  • They put their kids through college.

  • And then like, you know, the second iteration of it is, it becomes, for lack of a better word, fusion, right?

  • So you get, you get a bulgogi taco, you get kimchi on a hot dog, you get, you know, all this, so this cross-cultural thing happening with food.

  • And then to me, there is this third iteration that happens after that.

  • And you're seeing it in some of the restaurants in New York with, with the tasting menus, Korean tasting menus where you're seeing like, I don't know, it becomes, there becomes a somewhat of a purity, you know, like, like a distillation of everything.

  • It's like some of its cross-meshing culture, some of its authentic, like mom and pop, but some of its modern and innovates and it becomes this sort of like, all the, all the shaft gets kind of filtered out and you get to the core of something.

  • And question being like, what, what, what, what's Korean food in America going to be for the next 20 years?

  • Like, is it, is it, you know, bulgogi tacos or is there another thing after that, which is more pure to Korean, but it's not your grandma's, you know, you know, naengmyeon and kalbi.

  • So I don't know, that's the question in my head.

  • So we're, we're doing that as the cuisine.

  • And yeah, I, Chris, I agree with you 100%.

  • Like, I don't, I don't, I want people to come to specifically, you know, a byproduct is if you come and want, like, we will tell you all about our mission, but only if you ask, like we're not here to shove it in your face and shove it down your throat.

  • But if you're curious, yeah, we'll go down the rabbit hole.

  • Put that salad on the menu.

  • Fill that restaurant right up, that persimmon salad.

  • I'm off to find out where to get you have a new book out.

  • Yeah, and it is called Bourbonland.

  • Quick plug for that.

  • What can people expect?

  • It's my, it's kind of, you know, for those of you that don't know me, you know, I'm a Korean kid from New York, but I've lived 20 years in Louisville, Kentucky.

  • And I've been drinking, cooking and doing everything with bourbon for the past 20 years.

  • And so it's kind of, it's everything about, it's just my opinionated take on bourbon and it's all recipes made with bourbon.

  • There's a lot of bourbon cookbooks out there, but it's all like, you know, Joe's BBQ, add some Jack Daniels and, you know, fry up your ribs.

  • Or it's like, you know, bourbon dessert chocolate.

  • Hey, Ed, let's just call a spade a spade here.

  • They all suck.

  • Okay.

  • You know, if you have that bourbon cookbook that Ed's talking about, you can burn.

  • I joke, but not really.

  • Burn your other food.

  • I just wanted to show, I just want to show that bourbon is an ingredient.

  • It's diverse.

  • You can, you can, listen, I put bourbon in Asian food.

  • It's fantastic.

  • But it's also kind of my love letter to Kentucky.

  • I mean, I found myself, you know, from New York originally, but found myself like falling in love with Kentucky and got married there, had a kid there, just, just had a fucking incredible ride.

  • And so as bourbon becomes more popular and it becomes like global, I just don't want people to forget that it's, you know, born, bred, made, and beloved in Kentucky.

  • It's been 20 years since you moved to Kentucky.

  • I remember like, you were like, Ed moved to Kentucky.

  • I was like, what?

  • Fuckin' in a what?

  • And then I saw how happy you were.

  • You were so happy.

  • You were genuinely happy.

  • And I'm glad that Louisville, I'm glad the great state of Kentucky has welcomed you with open arms because you are a great value add to that place.

  • And I, you know, I remember one of those things you cook for me with bourbon.

  • You made soy butter bourbon on grilled oysters.

  • Oh yeah.

  • Damn, that's a good memory.

  • This guy does not forget it.

  • A lot of, a lot of that bourbon didn't hit the oysters, but hit my mouth.

  • That was with Julian, Julian Van Winkle.

  • That was, that was the early days of Papi Van Winkle before, before everything changed.

  • This must have been a good hang.

  • Super, super drunk.

  • And those are the days, man, Julian before he sold, before it was even popular.

  • I haven't even told Bourdain about it yet.

  • This was like a niche, niche thing.

  • He could just, it was, he cooked, Ed cooked for all of us.

  • It was, it was one of the more memorable meals I've had.

  • And again, just remembering the big shit eating grin on Ed's face, just being there in Kentucky.

  • I'll never forget that.

  • So great seeing you.

  • You guys should all watch Culinary Class Wars and watch Ed at a disadvantage, jet lag, not having any home, you know, to help him out, defying the odds, fucking smoking people.

  • Okay.

  • If you want to see literally somebody rising like a Phoenix from the ashes of all those burned bourbon cookbooks.

  • Thanks Ed.

  • Yeah.

  • Thank you guys.

  • All right.

  • Great, great time talking with Ed.

  • Go watch Culinary Class Wars, go buy his book Bourbon Land, and you have a choice to do something with those other bourbon books.

  • Right now it's a choice.

  • You have a choice.

  • If you were paying attention to the podcast, you know what I was talking about.

  • Subscribe to this podcast, subscribe to our Major Domo Media YouTube channel or at The Dave Chang Show on Netflix, 4 p.m.

  • Pacific Standard Time.

  • We have Pumpkin Spice, as much as I hate it.

All right guys, we have an interview with a good friend of ours, Chef Edward Lee.

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