I would like to start today's episode by sharing a selection of some of the, let's say, more critical reviews the podcast has received over the past year. I tuned in to listen to the episode with Dr. Mary Frances O'Connor. Dr. O'Connor was brilliant, but Forrest, not so much. Out of his depth to the point that I felt secondhand embarrassment. Great interview with Gabor Maté. He is a gift to us all. I was a little nervous Forrest would talk too much, but he was pretty quiet on this one. All was going well, discussing abundance and scarcity mindset, until they turned against capitalism. What is this podcast if not a capitalist endeavor? I'm sick of being lectured by hypocrites. And then finally, I really enjoyed this one. This would be a lot better if Forrest relaxed a lot and stopped croaking into the back of his throat. He also laughs throatily and it makes him sound fake. Otherwise,

I love Dr. Rick Hansen's wise and steady demeanor.

Now, criticism is an unavoidable part of life. Sometimes it's overt, like in these reviews, and sometimes it comes in more subtle forms, like advice giving or comparing ourselves negatively to other people. Sometimes we can take it with some good grace and are able to accept the useful parts of it without too much discomfort, like, you know, apparently

I should work with a vocal coach, and other times it really stings. And then, a lot of the time, most of the time, there's probably a little bit of both. But even though we're all going to be criticized from time to time, many of us spend a lot of our lives living in fear of criticism. Speaking personally, my behavior is totally influenced by wanting to avoid criticism. And then on the flip side, we're all critics ourselves. We've all been in situations that aren't quite the way that we want them to be, so we either need to do something to change them or accept them as they are. And that's what we're going to be focusing on today. On the one hand, how to take criticism well, receiving the useful parts without feeling a lot of the bonus pain. And then, on the other, learning to avoid chronic complaining and learning to accept things when they're not quite the way we'd like them to be. So to help us do that, I'm joined by the impeccable, not back-of-throat talking Dr. Rick Hansen. Rick is a clinical psychologist, he's a bestselling author, and he's also my dad. So, Dad, how are you doing today?

Oh, man, I'm already stirred up on your behalf. Like, wait a minute here. I'm a walking demonstration right now of not necessarily good ways to react to criticism, just in that. But still, that said, if somebody were to say to you on the street, hey, your head is made of green cheese and you were to say, well, actually, no, it's not. Then they would say, well, you're being defensive. And then you might say, I'm not being defensive. I'm just saying my head's not made of green cheese. And then they would say, now you're being defensive about being defensive. So it can become kind of circular here, right?

Oh, totally. So what is the sweet spot where we receive the input? And I'm, myself, actually, on reflection, very aware in these podcast conversations with you of multiple things I either did poorly or could do better.

Same. Totally. Every time. Yeah. And I would like to state for the record that the enormous and overwhelming majority of the reviews and comments we get on the podcast are positive.

And I had to kind of go out of my way to dive into the reviews to find those. And also,

I think it illustrates a really key point here that we're probably going to talk about a little bit more today, which is that so much of life is about what you choose to focus on, right? It often really pops out to me when we get a negative review, when somebody leaves a one-star review and they complain about some aspect of what we're doing. And

I go, oh my God, I can feel the sting of that. And then we get so many five-star reviews that just kind of blend into the background for me. And you don't really pay attention to them because they're not rocking the boat of my experience in the same way. I appreciate them. I don't want to act like I don't appreciate them. I really do. People say some incredibly touching things about the show. But it's really easy for them to just slip right through my mental sieve without me really paying a lot of attention to it. One of the things that I've been really conscious of in my own life recently is paying attention to where

I am placing my attention and being a lot more thoughtful about focusing on the elements of my experience that are more positive and taking in the good, of course, as you like to say, and to really be wearing what I've started calling the mood of complaint, which is just our tendency sometimes to fall into these cycles where just everything is not quite right. I am really looking forward to this exploration, right? Because we can fall into trouble either way. On the one hand, we can be reactive to criticism. And second, we can be critical ourselves. For me, it's been a real journey initially to claim my voice to be able to critique the things that weren't so good. Because when I was a kid, we were really muzzled. My parents had a monopoly on anger, and I was really scared of sticking my neck out. It took a long time for me to be the proverbial kid at the parade saying, the emperor's wearing boxer shorts with polka dots, or Oliver Twist walking up to the table and saying, please, may I have another bowl of oatmeal? That took me a while to do, but then I began to really have to pay attention to being overly critical and also paying attention to the ways that the content of the correction—let's just think of it in terms of the distinction between what could be and what is, what realistically could be and what is, between standard and actual, let's say, goal and actual—whatever that information might be, because that's what that is, that's information, wrapped around it can be a lot of topspin, including topspin that's just conferred by your privilege in where you stand in society. So as a male, older, professional person, I can offer a piece of information about a gap between what is and what actually could be with good intentions, and yet it can really sting. Because in ways

I'm not entirely aware of, it can have an impact, understandably, way out of proportion to what I actually intended. And yet, if we also bring in the dimension for us of criticizing ourselves, there is no way to get through this life without screwing up, including in ways that you regret every single day and in ways that fill you with pain and remorse whenever you think about them. But that's simply part of the stew of life. Call it the hot pepper in the stew of life. There's just no way around it, and it burns every time you taste it. And you got to accept that and not be too hard on yourself about that.

And for me, really look down deeply. Do you have basically good intentions? Do you act in basically good faith? Have you learned from screwing up? That's really important.

Are you still doing it? Or have you learned from doing it? And can you go forward?

Totally. And I think that inside of that, it's useful to separate out different kinds of complaints. And people often break complaint into two big categories. The first one are called instrumental complaints. And these are constructive complaints. They're complaints that somebody could actually do something about. And then the second category are expressive complaints. And they're called expressive because they're about expressing your feelings.

And they often include relatively little chance of somebody doing something. They're not fundamentally about problem solving. And I think that there's actually really a place for both of these forms of complaint. It's really easy to look at instrumental complaints as good complaints and expressive complaints as bad complaints. But I think that that's probably a little overly simplistic. But it is helpful for us to just take a look at the reality that a lot of the time when we're complaining, we're doing it for a reason other than actually trying to change our circumstances. And there's a place there for really taking a look at that and going, wow, is that really what we want to do?

When I look back on my own history, some things that I've started to highlight for some time now around how to offer feedback or how to express wants, including wanting something to stop happening or something to start happening that there's been some real stakes on the table for. That's a real important thing. As soon as I start getting worked up and then we're in trouble, right? Or I start getting identified with my complaint, my criticism, or righteous about it. I start adding a mass to it, developing a case around it. And then

I know I'm in trouble. Moving into a stance of feeling outraged about something that really does not deserve outrage. I think some things do deserve outrage, right? But I can't believe that yet again, you left your plate in the sink. After all I've done for you, you still leave your damn plate in the sink, right? Like, no, that just doesn't deserve that kind of almost like flip switching. And I can feel it coming over me. It's like a bad version of Braveheart in the movie of just this total warrior around something that's just way out of proportion to what the real issue is on the table. So markers, whatever those internal red lights are on your inner dashboard that let you know that you're getting in trouble about something that's really good to pay attention to. Last one I'll just say is accelerating, starting to speed up, making points rat-tat-tat-tat-tat, or getting more intense with gestures, accelerating in body movements. That also is kind of a giveaway. Accelerating and contracting are both giveaways of maybe you're getting into some trouble territory here that is wrapping around the useful information you're trying to convey or the experience you're trying to share. But it's going to get you in trouble. You don't need to add all that to it. Anyway, that's been something that I've been really trying to learn about.

Yeah, totally. And we're talking here a little bit, starting the episode basically by talking about how can we give more effective criticism and be a better complainer, if you want to kind of put it that way. And one of the big questions that I've started to ask myself about this mood of complaint that I can sometimes find myself in is, what is my actual objective?

What is my primary motivation? What do I want to accomplish with whatever it is that I'm saying to the other person? Because there are a lot of reasons for complaining that, like I was saying earlier, have nothing to do with problem-solving. People complain to bond socially. They also complain for mood regulation purposes. A lot of people vent just to kind of get it out of their system, right? Now, basically, that's dumping your negative mood on somebody else, so it could be a mixed bag, but it's a reason people complain.

They deserved it.

Yeah, they deserved it. And again, like vengeance. Vengeance is a reason that people complain, right? Or they might be like seeking attention. Sometimes I seek attention with my complaints.

I want somebody to pay attention to my experience more, so it becomes like a kind of cry for help. And those are all reasons that somebody might complain that are really understandable.

Bonding is an okay motivation to complain, and sharing your feelings is an okay motivation, but it's really helpful to understand why you're doing this thing, and if there might be something else that could fulfill that purpose better than offering a complaint.

Another thing that I really ask myself is, is it possible for what I'm complaining about to actually change? Like, can the person that I'm talking to really do something about this thing in a focused way?

Yeah, I find it's also super helpful. This gets a little bit at the distinction, which

I'd never heard before. One thing that's great about working with you is that you forest to a deep dive into the psychology and the current research related to our topics, and you bring stuff forward that, wow, you're educating me. So, you know, instrumental and expressive forms of complaining. To say it maybe a little differently, the way I would put it, is the distinction between asserting information and sharing an experience.

Yeah.

And let me get at that point with a little story, which had to do when I was maybe 21 or 2, and I just started getting involved with the EST training. And I recall being in a seminar room with this just powerhouse of a teacher, and she would have one person after another come to the front of the room and practice leading the very first part of this guest seminar, this workshop. And then people would give feedback. So, the person would come up to the front of the room and give a little talk for 3 to 5 minutes. Then

Marsha would say, okay, feedback. And people would start saying things like, well, I think you ought to have done X, or when you did Y, it would be better if you did Z. Marsha would cut them off again and again. She would say, I don't want your infinite wisdom. I want your experience. What were you experiencing while this person was talking? And then people would start to share, well, in the very beginning, what I was experiencing was a lot of attentiveness to you and a feeling of liking you. And after about half a minute, while you were moving into this sort of long list of details, my experience was I started feeling kind of bored and my mind began to wander, and I was becoming more interested in other things. That's gold, sharing your experience. And I think both in terms of giving feedback and receiving feedback, it's helpful to get a factual-based information or statements of values. Okay, that's good. But what's really, really valuable is what was your experience? What was it like for you? How did it land on you? Which is usually a lot more vulnerable and challenging to share. So we tend to go into the assertions of fact or assertions of values, assertions of information to avoid the vulnerability, right, of just laying out our own experience.

And it's paradoxical because, or ironic in that, there's this kind of fear that our experience itself doesn't have authority. It'll be dismissed or disregarded, maybe because it was.

I think that's really good, Dad. This is a really important point. I don't know if I've heard this one before. I really like this.

Good, yeah. And so we start then asserting facts and asserting values, which we actually have much less natural authority for, and other people think they have authority about what the facts are and what ought to be. And so then they'll start arguing with us about that. But where we have complete authority, actually, is the honest revelation, the honest sharing of our own direct experience. When that was happening, my mind was wandering.

When that was happening, on the other hand, I felt really close to you and interested in what you were having to say. Because we are the world's greatest experts on our own experience, right? We are the great authorities on it. And that's where we have the ultimate refuge because people can argue forever about facts and values, but they cannot argue about the fact that you are actually experiencing something at the time.

Yeah, and that reminds me immediately of formal systems of communication like nonviolent communication, which is probably relevant to name here, which has a specific structure attached to it. We've done an episode on nonviolent communication. And the basic idea behind it is that you're doing exactly what you're talking about, Dad. You're operating from the stance of revealing your experience with the other person, and then expressing some desire attached to that experience. And that takes me to probably the single best piece of advice that I've ever received about communication. I think I got it from you. And it's start by joining.

And so if you're offering a complaint, it is 99.99% of the time best to start by joining.

Is it possible for you to find a place where you can overlap with the other person, integrate with your experience with them, come a little closer, operate from a stance of vulnerability, give them a compliment, you know, whatever? Can you achieve a team? And from that team with them, can you go, hey, here's some ideas I've had about how we can improve this team.

So it's not you and them. It's both of you together, working toward the resolution of an issue. And that was totally transformative for me in my life when I started to operate more from that stance. I'm still trying to learn it.

Yeah. It's not always easy to be quick.

I know. I think there's a certain kind of special embarrassment when you've been training to do something for a long time, like training to play the bagpipes for a really long time. And you're, you know, you're reasonably good at it. And then you suddenly realize that you've been playing a song wrong, or you've been falling back into some kind of beginner's mistake, and I've definitely been going through some of that recently in my own personal life.

I want to add one thing, if I could, just to what you said there, which is that it's really understandable that we are afraid to share our experience with others, especially if we've had a history in which that did not go well. We got attacked for it or shunned for it. It was not the culture or whatever it was. So it's really, really understandable. And I think that the world would be a lot better if people, me included, just clocked more time in sort of vulnerable revealing of their experiencing in real time. It's quite remarkable when you do that.

Yeah, totally. And I think that a great indicator inside of our relationships with other people is how open are they to accepting your vulnerability in that way.

And if you're in a relationship with somebody where it just really feels like they are not available for that, man, it's tough. It's a tough relationship. And I'm not saying that that means that relationship can't exist, but it might mean that there are some ways to protect yourself emotionally that the basis of the relationship needs to change a little bit. You've talked a lot,

Dad, about changing the size of the foundation of a relationship to match its foundation, is a better way to put it, because there's only so much that can be held up by an interpersonal relationship where they're just not open to your vulnerability.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And one thing that can come forward when people are just really revealed about what it's like to be you is that what it's like to be you is to feel chronically let down by other people. Yeah, for sure. Chronically disrespected, unsupported, mistreated, usually because it's pretty much been true. And what do you do if that's very much in your history or because it's been in your history, there's an understandable, not quite expectation, but a concern that is going to happen yet again?

And that's real for people. Now, sometimes it is true that people can take that real sense of just being let down, a kind of inner slump. They can add to it with a certain amount of what in therapy world we could call secondary gains by kind of working their mood of reproach as like, you know, that wound is almost a badge of honor that presents itself as a claim on other people.

And they're kind of afraid that if they don't lead with that complaint and that claim, then there won't be a basis for other people to come through for them.

And they'll be abandoned as a result. So sometimes there is that add-on, there is that add-on, okay. But underneath it all often for people is a very genuine and understandable sense of just having been really let down. And so what do you do with that, right? What do you do with that? There's a lot of stuff about becoming mindful of it, becoming aware of it, bringing compassion to yourself about it, respecting yourself, recognizing that, of course, you feel this way, of course, you feel let down, of course, you're afraid of being let down again. That's where we start.