I never understood it.

我一直不明白。

You see, there are other things, and this maybe I did have, though I don't know.

你看，還有其他東西，這個也許我確實有，不過我不知道。

You see, I think the most important thing, and I don't quite know how to express it, is you have a sense for the truth.

你看，我覺得最重要的一點--我不知道該如何表達--就是你對真相有一種感覺。

And you have a real sense for the truth in relation to yourself.

而且，你對自己的真實情況很有把握。

And be prepared to know, or to try to find out what's going on, and how things are hitting you.

並做好準備，瞭解或試圖瞭解發生了什麼，以及事情是如何影響你的。

Because only that is going to enable you, really, to face what's going on in other people.

因為只有這樣，你才能真正面對其他人身上發生的事情。

And I think that's the fundamental thing.

我認為這才是根本所在。

And I think somewhere I must have had that.

我想，我一定在某個地方擁有過它。

You see.

你看

And I think that's how I developed.

我想我就是這樣成長起來的。

I think I became dissatisfied when I felt I was becoming sort of mechanical.

我想，當我覺得自己變得有點機械時，我就開始不滿足了。

The other thing I think one needs, and which I would certainly not have said I had, I hope I have by now, is something about imagination.

我認為一個人需要的另一樣東西是想象力，我肯定不會說我有，但我希望我現在已經有了。

Something about an ability to move one's mind in different directions.

關於一個人的思維向不同方向發展的能力。

So if you're listening to a patient and you get stuck, can you let your mind move and think, or feel?

是以，如果你在傾聽病人的傾訴時遇到困難，你能讓自己的思維活動起來，去思考或感受嗎？

Maybe I'm talking in the wrong way, or to a different bit, or different part of the patient.

也許我說話的方式不對，或者對病人的不同部位或不同部分說話。

Can I have the kind of flexibility to move in one's thinking?

我的思維能否靈活多變？

I think that's a very important quality.

我認為這是一個非常重要的品質。

That, I'm sure, could be helped with analysis, terrifically, you see.

我相信，這可以通過分析來解決，你看，非常好。

But that kind of thing, I think, is absolutely essential.

但我認為，這種事情是絕對必要的。

And that one has to put up with being a bad analyst.

而且還得忍受成為一個糟糕的分析師。

I'm sorry, but it's true.

很抱歉，但這是事實。

You can have little signs of development and goodness.

你可以有發展的小跡象，也可以有好的跡象。

I remember when Ella Shroff supervised me for a time, she was a marvellous analyst.

我記得 Ella Shroff 曾指導過我一段時間，她是一位了不起的分析師。

I remember her saying, that was a nice interpretation.

我記得她說，那是一種很好的詮釋。

My heart rose.

我的心怦怦直跳。

And I think one just has to, you see, if you can't bear being bad, and being dumb and mechanical, you'll never be good, is my feeling.

我覺得人就得這樣，你看，如果你不能忍受自己的壞，不能忍受自己的愚蠢和機械，你就永遠不會好，這就是我的感覺。

I do think that the way my own thinking, and I hope your thinking is going to develop, is really that when you get stuck or feel bored, you see that the fact that you're stuck or bored, there's something interesting in the room going on, that there are two people in the room and one's stuck.

我確實認為，我自己的思維方式，我希望你們的思維方式也能有所發展，那就是當你陷入困境或感到無聊時，你會發現，其實你陷入困境或感到無聊的時候，房間裡正在發生一些有趣的事情，房間裡有兩個人，其中一個陷入困境。

Why is one stuck, you see?

為什麼會卡住呢？

Not to feel, oh God, what a patient, or to feel, or to be interested in why it is so awful.

不是去感受 "哦，上帝啊，多好的病人"，也不是去感受，更不是去關心它為什麼如此可怕。

That's what you'll be.

這就是你的未來。

You see, remember there's a famous remark that Bierne made about a patient.

你看，還記得比爾恩對一位病人說過的一句名言嗎？

This patient is so boring, it's positively fascinating.

這個病人太無聊了，簡直令人著迷。

And it's true, you see.

你看，這是真的。

You see, how is it that some patients make you feel so stuck?

你看，有些病人怎麼會讓你感到如此困頓呢？

And what is it?

是什麼呢？

What are they doing?

他們在做什麼？

Or what is one doing that one can't bear it and see what's underneath?

或者說，一個人在做什麼，以至於不能忍受它，不能看到它下面的東西？

Because that's another thing about what makes a decent analyst.

因為這也是一個合格分析師的另一個要素。

You see, only, I think, if you can get, if you can bear what is going on, what goes on in yourself, in your own mind, can you bear what is going on in your patient?

你看，我認為，只有當你能夠了解、能夠承受你自己的內心世界，你才能承受你的病人的內心世界。

And tolerating our patients, without coming in prematurely, in a way that I think Ali McGinley was talking about, is without coming in prematurely or mechanically.

我認為，阿里-麥金利所說的 "容忍 "病人，就是不要過早或機械地接受治療。

But tolerating what they bring out in us, or what they stir up in us, is absolutely, going to be absolutely essential.

但是，容忍它們在我們身上帶來的影響，或者它們在我們身上激起的波瀾，絕對是絕對必要的。

Can one do that?

能做到嗎？

Very early on, Bierne had a feeling for this.

很早以前，比爾恩就對此有所預感。

Really a feeling for facing the counter-transference, allowing oneself to think about it and use it.

真正的感覺是面對反移情，允許自己去思考它、使用它。

Now that was certainly not in the air.

現在，空氣中肯定沒有這樣的聲音。

It wasn't in the air, and of course it is an area that has been enormously developed in our time, and I happen to think is one of the most important areas for the development of analysis, you see.

當然，這個領域在我們這個時代得到了極大的發展，我恰好認為它是分析發展的最重要領域之一。

This whole question of what is going on between the analyst and the patient, or the patient and the analyst, both ways, you know.

分析師和病人之間，或者病人和分析師之間，都存在這樣的問題。

And I think it's one of the most important developments.

我認為這是最重要的進展之一。

You see, I mean, Freud knew there was a thing called counter-transference, but he couldn't quite use it, though he was using it up to a point.

你看，我的意思是，弗洛伊德知道有一種東西叫反移情， 但他不能完全使用它，儘管他在一定程度上使用了它。

But he got the idea, and his whole notion of transference is, to my mind, still basic to us.

但他明白了這一點，而且在我看來，他的整個轉移概念對我們來說仍然是最基本的。

That and this stress on working in a very detailed way is very much developed by the British Society.

這一點，以及這種強調以非常細緻的方式開展工作的做法，在很大程度上是由英國協會發展而來的。

You see, there's not any...

你看，沒有任何...

And by yourself.

還有你自己

By myself, but by the British Society, and then some of the work of Joe Sandler was very interesting in terms of analyst response.

我自己，但英國協會，以及喬-桑德勒（Joe Sandler）的一些工作在分析師的反應方面非常有趣。

So it is very much, and always when one does seminars or lectures abroad, you can see how important the awareness is abroad, that we've got something about this, about following stuff in detail and recognising the importance of the relationship between analyst and patient.

是以，在國外舉辦研討會或講座時，你總能看到國外的意識是多麼重要，我們已經掌握了一些相關知識，瞭解了一些細節，並認識到分析師與患者之間關係的重要性。

Things going on in a child, actually, that only go on in the adult with words, is extraordinary.

在孩子身上發生的事情，其實只有在成人身上用語言表達出來，才是非同尋常的。

I don't mean just, say, violence, which is very striking, you see.

我指的不僅僅是暴力，你看，暴力非常引人注目。

But to be able to see a child actually show you what a manic mechanism is like.

但是，能夠看到一個孩子真正向你展示狂躁症的機制是什麼樣的。

I mean, let's give you an example.

我是說，舉個例子吧。

I remember a child who was very, very wild, terribly disturbed, very anxious, difficult with food, violent, and very unhappy.

我記得有一個孩子非常非常野蠻，非常不安，非常焦慮，不愛吃飯，有暴力傾向，非常不快樂。

Now, he, at one point, developed a phobia of the trees.

現在，他一度患上了樹木恐懼症。

I had a playroom which looked onto my garden, and in the garden, a bit of the garden just outside the window, there was some little azaleas.

我有一間遊戲室，可以看到我的花園，在花園裡，也就是窗外的花園裡，有一些小杜鵑花。

One of the azaleas, as all azaleas grow like that, you know, how there was this terrible fear that the tree was going to come in, get through the window, come in and grab him and touch him.

有一棵杜鵑花，所有的杜鵑花都長成那樣，你知道，人們多麼害怕樹會進來，穿過窗戶，進來抓住他，撫摸他。

Now, you can see what an interesting thing that is.

現在，你可以看到這是一件多麼有趣的事情。

That child, in his behaviour with me, would grab me, touch me, bite me, kick me, and you know, the tree was going to come in and grab and tear at you.

那個孩子在與我相處的過程中，會抓我、摸我、咬我、踢我，你知道，那棵樹會進來抓你，撕咬你。

Now, you see, seeing this in a child is such a psychotic notion, and yet you can see one element, one way in which it's got built up.

現在，你看，在一個孩子身上看到這些是多麼瘋狂的想法，然而你可以看到其中的一個元素，一種建立它的方式。

It's a remarkable experience, you see, and then you could see how useless it's going to be when you're an adult, reassuring one, because I would try in my slightly naive way, trying to link his biting and tearing, and show him, so to speak, as a projection.

這是一種非凡的體驗，你看，然後你就會明白，當你長大成人後，安撫一個人是多麼沒用，因為我會用我略顯天真的方式，試圖把他的撕咬和撕扯聯繫起來，給他看，可以說是一種投射。

Could he hear it?

他能聽到嗎？

It was much too concrete.

它太具體了。

So you understand then about concrete thinking, and you understand about projective mechanisms, because you see them happening.

這樣，你就理解了具體思維，也理解了投射機制，因為你看到了它們的發生。

That is terribly helpful.

這真是幫了大忙了。

A year or two ago, the attacks on analysis in the papers were quite extraordinary.

一兩年前，報紙上對分析的抨擊可謂異乎尋常。

Now, I don't find that very worrying, really.

現在，我不覺得這很令人擔憂，真的。

Well, because if a thing's good enough, it will draw attacks.

因為如果一個東西足夠好，就會吸引攻擊。

And you don't attack something which hasn't really held your attention.

你也不會去攻擊那些沒有引起你注意的東西。

And I don't think, I mean, I think there is something so fundamentally right about analysis.

我不認為，我的意思是，我認為分析從根本上說是正確的。

Whatever goes this way or that way, you can't destroy it.

不管是這樣還是那樣，你都無法摧毀它。

It's kind of indestructible.

它堅不可摧。

I'm against neutrality.

我反對中立。

What I mean by that is, allow yourself to be affected.

我的意思是，允許自己受到影響。

Therefore, for that second, you're not neutral.

是以，在那一秒，你不是中立的。

That's what I mean.

我就是這個意思。

Once you allow yourself and you think, God, I could beat him, that's terribly helpful.

一旦你允許自己這樣做，你就會想，天哪，我可以打敗他，這對你大有幫助。

Don't be neutral.

不要保持中立。

Then you get a dead, flat mechanical analysis.

然後你就會得到一個死氣沉沉的機械分析。

You see, once you know, God, I could beat him, then you think, is that my nastiness, or is he asking for it?

你看，一旦你知道，上帝啊，我能打敗他，你就會想，這是我的下流，還是他自找的？

Then you can start to soak him.

然後就可以開始浸泡他了。

And it's as easy, i.e., difficult as that.

就這麼簡單，也就是這麼難。

But you see, this is such an important thing when you're dealing with any kind of destructiveness, aggressiveness, is really trying to see how much it is a masochistic thing.

但是你看，當你面對任何一種破壞性、攻擊性的時候，這就是一件非常重要的事情，就是要真正地瞭解它在多大程度上是一種受虐狂。

How much the patient is politely and nicely trying to destroy you.

病人是多麼有禮貌地試圖摧毀你。

How much, say the masochism, which makes you feel sadistic, say cruel with the patient, how much that can help you to show the patient what's going on.

比如說，受虐狂會讓你覺得自己是虐待狂，比如說，對病人很殘忍，這在多大程度上能幫助你向病人展示發生了什麼。

You see, if you could say to that patient, you know that you're, or can you see that you're trying to, or you're expecting me to get hostile, to get nasty, as if I would really beat you up.

你看，如果你能對那個病人說，你知道你在，或者你能看到你在試圖，或者你在期待我變得有敵意，變得下流，好像我會真的揍你一頓。

You see, this comes as something new to a patient.

你看，這對病人來說是件新鮮事。

It will take years.

這需要數年時間。

But it's a terribly interesting and terribly important area, you see.

但這是一個非常有趣、非常重要的領域。

And it's the same, not when we haven't got to say the masochistic side of the thing, but with the patient who is difficult to reach.

同樣的情況，不是說我們沒有受虐狂的一面，而是很難接觸到的病人。

We've got the same basic thought, haven't we?

我們的基本想法是一樣的，不是嗎？

What I'm interested in is not just the words, but why the patient is talking in that way to me at that time, and whether that won't be indicative of the way we can help him most, you see.

我感興趣的不僅僅是病人說的話，而是病人當時為什麼會以這種方式跟我說話，以及這是否表明我們可以為他提供最大的幫助。

And I think that is what has been developed rather well here.

我認為這一點在這裡得到了很好的發展。

And contrast to what I dislike enormously, which is when the analyst tries to describe what got stirred up in him, and how this must be due to the patient, and then he acknowledges all kinds of things, I find it absolutely contaminates analysis.

與此形成鮮明對比的是，我非常不喜歡分析師試圖描述在他身上激起了什麼，以及這一定是病人造成的，然後他承認了各種各樣的事情，我發現這絕對會汙染分析。

What I think we want is not neutrality, but not contamination.

我認為我們要的不是中立，而是不汙染。

When you know you're contaminated, use it, you see.

當你知道自己被汙染時，就使用它，你看。

That's really what I'm saying.

我就是這個意思。

Use it for your thinking.

用它來思考。

And it's so difficult, and none of us succeed with that.

這太難了，我們沒有一個人能成功。

And that's why the moment you get stuck, you go and talk to a friend.

這就是為什麼你一遇到困難，就會去找朋友傾訴。

You see, we say in our workshop, which is now very, very experienced analysts, mostly training analysts, we all notice still that where people get stuck with material is nearly always that they've got slightly drawn in, they're a bit too compliant with the patient or something.

你看，在我們的工作坊裡，現在都是非常非常有經驗的分析師，大部分都是接受過培訓的分析師，我們都注意到，人們被材料卡住的地方，幾乎總是他們被稍微吸引住了，他們有點太順從病人或其他東西了。

I'm very inspired, actually, to see how much you seem to still enjoy the work, and how I was thinking of Nina Coulthard's book, How to Survive, as an analyst.

事實上，看到你似乎仍然很喜歡這項工作，我很受啟發，我想到了妮娜-庫爾薩德的書《如何生存》，作為一名分析師。

But it's not about survival, it's how to flourish, probably, as an analyst.

但這不是生存的問題，而是作為一名分析師如何繁榮發展的問題。

It is a problem, because you see, if you don't enjoy it, then you should give up early.

這是個問題，因為你看，如果你不喜歡，那就應該早點放棄。

The point is that it is so extraordinary that after nearly 60 years, to be honest, after 60 years, beings are always different.

問題的關鍵在於，經過近 60 年的時間，老實說，經過 60 年的時間，眾生總是與眾不同。

I've never understood how this works.

我一直不明白這是怎麼回事。

They've all got oedipus complexes, but they're all different.

他們都有戀母情結，但又各不相同。

Well, thank you very, very much for agreeing to meet with us.

非常感謝你同意與我們見面。

Well, I enjoy myself very much.

嗯，我很享受這種感覺。

I'm so pleased, thank you.

我很高興，謝謝你。

And I shall know some of your faces now when I meet you around.

現在，當我在附近遇到你們時，我將認識你們中的一些人。

Thank you.

謝謝。

And thank you for joining.

感謝您的加入。