I have a feeling this is too controversial for people so we might have to change the claim But somebody must want to have an ominous conversation about this Do you think trans women should be able to compete women's sports too controversial even for you son?

This alone is interesting to me.

Nobody will have a conversation about this interesting I'll give someone else the mic and let them question me about this claim Trans women should be able to compete in women's sports.

You want to have that conversation.

No too scared Okay, you want to have that conversation?

Nope too scared too scared Okay Anybody anybody trans women should be able to compete in women's sports be terrifying Trans women should be able to compete in women's sports.

Anybody have it.

You have an opinion Awesome.

Awesome.

Stand on the neutral line right there So the game has only two rules We can do it with one.

Oh, we got two people.

Oh, we got three people.

All right.

Well, I was wrong I was wrong.

I was wrong.

I didn't think it would come.

Okay, stand on neutral.

Okay Okay, so this is a very simple game.

We have a Few rules the first rule is you can't stand in between the line Very straightforward The second rule is you can't move until I say move and the reason for that is because we don't want anybody's opinion To affect anybody else's opinion Exactly precisely now, let me go over this Strongly agree agree Slightly agree neutral slightly disagree disagree strongly disagree so I'm gonna ask this question and come back to five and don't move until I get to Go and stand on a line.

It could not possibly be any simple, but you'd be astonished How many people do not pay attention to the rules?

Trans women should be able to compete in women's sports five four three two one move Okay, we've got one disagree one strongly agreed to up you're on the line, okay tell us why you agree I Agree because Trans women should be able to be key should be able to compete in women's sports because they are competing underneath their identity that they very solidly aligned with and to deprive them of that is to Kind of say that their identity is not acceptable in society In society or in sports that they're they're not about their identity is not validated.

Okay Do you agree with what she said?

Yes, but that's not specifically why I agree that trans women should be able to compete.

Okay.

Why do you think I believe?

Trans women should be able to compete in sports because there's specific criterion That trans women have to meet in order to be able to compete under the woman category in which sports I'm not an expert on all sports.

I'm not an expert either, but I do know for at least the Olympics There are requirements for trans women because when trans women go on test When transform and go on hormones Testosterone drops in them.

So a lot of the natural advantages They might have being born in a man's body are depleted like the strength testosterone gives you and so on and so forth So they have to be below a certain testosterone level They have to be on estrogen for a certain amount of time and even the rule where you have to be below a certain test Percentages have stopped cis women from competing in sports.

So They're very like hard set rules.

There's this woman meaning what this woman?

Women who was born as women Women who were born as women.

Okay, cis women.

Yes This cis gendered is when you're born in the correct sex.

So like I was born a woman I'm identify as woman still I'm sis if I were to identify as non-binary or anything else.

I would not be sis You're gonna ask this question, I know what sis means Well, sis isn't in in the question and what sis might mean to you that doesn't mean that people watching this are gonna know It's just things are a definition things mean things Sis gender means one thing Is it possible that some people could define or perceive the word women to be different?

Well, I'm not talking about women I'm talking about the term cisgender Yeah, so I think it's important that we define our terms.

That's why I meant I wanted to define it Yeah, do you think it's unfair for me to ask you to define it?

No I I just don't it sounded like you didn't know what since gender was and I was just wondering if you didn't know that Was why you thought you should ask that question?

Oh, no I'm actually I'll tell you why there but I'm a legitimate gender studies scholar.

Oh Yeah, thank you.

I've I don't mean to brag but I've really I'll published almost anyone in the world in gender studies Thank you, I'll show you my body of literature later, but for now Trans women should be able to compete in women's sports.

What do you think about that?

I do not think they should be able to do that.

Okay, did anything they per se Persuade you think about that for a second, but tell us why I just think the Biological makeup of a man is not the same as women whether they take hormones or not Especially if they've been competing in that sport for years They did it originally as a man or woman and then they switched to female which I played a female sport growing up What did you play lacrosse?

Which is very different.

That's the one with the thing the net Which is very different from male lacrosse So I just think that it comes down to the biological makeup of like the training used for it and everything But I agree with a lot of the stuff that they say I'm not like They shouldn't do it, but I just think it should be so you think and I just want to make sure I get your argument You think that they shouldn't do it because it confers an unfair advantage on the person even if they've met their hormone requirements because as a biological male ages before they transition they have certain intrinsic advantages a Height for example, maybe in basketball or now that doesn't mean all men are tall but on a Gaussian curve It means that more men are tall than women So is that I don't want to mischaracterize.

Yes.

That's what I mean.

Did that persuade you?

I would say no because we have talked about like the Hormones and like the genetic makeup of a male body the versus a female body, but there are changes that can Happen whenever Someone starts to transition that can affect their muscle density Just like their overall genetic makeup another genetic makeup, but like their hormones and just how their body functions So, I don't know if that is like completely valid in arguing this what if I could provide you with evidence that even with the hormone replacement therapy That still conferred an advantage on people born as men That it that it wouldn't give it would it would even if they underwent hormone therapy It still was an advantage For the trans woman to participate in sports.

Would you then be for it or against it?

I would be open to revising my opinion if there's Evidence presented So you would be open to revise it and would you be open to revising your opinion to go to the agree or the slightly?

Agree slightly agree, but I don't think I would go any farther than that.

Okay.

Okay So the thing that's keeping you must be some identity factor.

Yes.

Okay.

So let's talk about that in a second So just to be clear, I don't want to put words in your mouth if you were to be shown evidence to your satisfaction that people born as male who transition who met the requirements of whatever Lacrosse Yeah, and you if you were to be shown that they would still have an unfair event you would be willing to move one Possibly two but not three.

Is that what you said?

Is that fair to say?

Okay, if you were to be shown that advantage, would you move?

Probably not?

Okay, what would it take for you to move?

Nothing, probably I feel very strongly about this because here's the thing even if you were to show me proof that People born as men who transition as women still have an unfair advantage You know, I'd believe that full-heartedly I wouldn't like try to dispute that if I saw like the facts behind that Yeah, however sports inherently have genetic advantaged players like Michael Phelps Michael Phelps with the heart.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He didn't produce like lactic acid.

He had an abnormally large wingspan He had like webbed toes and webbed feet.

No, it's not him competing.

That's an unfair genetic advantage We don't care about genetic advantages until it's someone transitioning from a man to a woman or a woman to a man I have to call you.

I have to push back on that I have personally never heard anybody concerned about people transitioning to a man Competing in men and men sports of you.

No, that's also another problem.

Why are we still focus on trans women?

I'm not trans man as well.

Well, I think I think unfair advantage It should be well But that's what I'm saying no one really cares about it being an unfair advantage or we wouldn't like basketball for instance if you're tall and I you could still make it to the NBA if you're like above six seven, but if you're below six foot and Phenomenal, that's a basketball short.

No, this is football my shirt.

This is the Seahawks Okay, I don't know much about sports Yeah, well ask me about gender studies.

That's a different thing But let's say well because it's about sports, you know some of the logistics you have are like that are in sports come to play here and like I said a lot of sports is genetic advantage like Being born and having an aptitude for something shouldn't mean you can't do it No one like I said, no one wanted to make themselves not swim in the Olympics So so do you think that there should be one division and we just throw all men and women in the same division?

That's not what I said.

No, no, but I'm asking you.

Is that what is that what you know?

Why not I do think there is, you know some pros to having Two separate divisions for men and women.

But like I said, honestly, I have what are the pros?

Honestly, I haven't given that enough thought to have like a Concrete stance on it that I would want to fully because I haven't done enough research or thought on it that that's fair So you think that there should be two divisions as of right now before I do a lot of like thinking about it Like I said, like I'd haven't put enough thought to it to me to give you a clear firm stance Oh, yeah, so I'm kind of think to think to this myself.

So the reason and I'm could be totally I'm just trying to figure this out myself So the reason the reason that there are two divisions are because there must be certain Categories of things that different sexes are better at or there wouldn't be divisions in the first place unless it was just like some social convention You're not wrong there So Is it possible to abstract from that and say that that reason is what confers an advantage on somebody?

No, because you can have advantages over someone who's also the same gender as you just as a different gender does Gender is not the only factor that provides an advantage or not.

However, it's definitely one that contributes to an advantage you have right There's a trans swimmer in the Olympics.

She didn't win if if trans women really have a crazy crazy advantage on women Why didn't she do what a sweep mean win everything Sweep like I thought you may give her a mop and like sweep.

Oh, why didn't she win all the awards?

Why didn't she win every race and why didn't she beat them by like seconds?

Which is what she did get into the Olympics.

She got into the Olympics.

She didn't win That's because she's a trained swimmer That's because she's been training to swim for as long as everyone else has it's what it makes sense You got into the Olympics.

She's been swimming at that time for her entire career But like I said, she didn't sweep.

She didn't have such a crazy advantage that she was Performing way above the ranks of the other women so even if it were shown that trans Women had distinct advantages That wouldn't be enough to move you to agree.

Yeah, because like I said this woman could have an advantage on another cis woman So, why should I care if a trans woman has an advantage on a cis woman when a cis woman could also have an advantage on another cis woman Like the fact that the trans doesn't really mean anything to me Like I said having a genetic advantage can and is a part of sports Okay, I think I understand their reasoning but I'm not positive I have a question for them so do you think that there could be like the women's group the man group and then People who are trans have their own category.

Who's the question for which one either or?

Feel like those groups are just a nail Alienate them even more and just like put them off into a separate category because they don't belong in women or male They they are not being put properly into the groups that they identify with Do I don't know anything about sports as you know from not even knowing what that means there does see see Falcons or whatever But but my question is then don't isn't aren't there rule I thought there rules against like shooting yourself up with steroids aren't there?

Yes So when you shoot yourself up with steroids, that must mean you have a competitive advantage.

So that's why they don't do it, right?

That shooting yourself up with steroids gives you a competitor I would assume or say wouldn't be a rule against it.

I Yes, there's there is a rule against using stare performance enhancing steroids But I don't think that's on the same level as hormone therapy No, no, that's not where I was going with it.

So no I was going with it It's possible that there are certain things that one can do to yield an event a performance event.

Yes.

Yes, so You shouldn't the idea be and again, I'm just thinking to this myself Shouldn't the idea be that we want to level the playing field to take out advantages for different people.

I Think like artificial advantages is what you're trying to say like Oh, oh, I'm sorry.

I thought you were waving to side thought you were waving to somebody.

Well, first of all Seahawks got a rap Seahawks Their football team from Seattle's in Washington Who's the Know the person who throws the ball the QB.

Who's the QB?

No, but okay to go off her point I Like performance-enhancing drugs are obviously banned and it's because they enhance your performance.

However, however If you have enough money, you can pay a coach to help advance your performance You know what?

I mean?

Like you there's specific training facilities There's specific programs that all cost money to access and by accessing those with money.

You also gain an advantage so it's not like These hormones so we should get it's not like because these hormones are only band becomes their performance enhancing They're also extremely harmful on people's bodies.

So we should give if that logic calls we should give all Non-trans women extra coaching to make up for the deficiencies.

No, that's not what I'm saying I'm I'm furthering showing that there's already a discrepancy in sports If you're rich and can pay for equipment training facilities a training coach you're gonna do better than someone who can't and I'm not like the Russians and like the like the Russians in in in Cycling and weightlifting.

Yeah, like most people in the Olympics most people in the Olympics have access to really good trainers and really good training and If everyone in the world was had access to that training I don't think the Olympics would look the same there'd be a lot of different people in there But they don't because because inequities like I said are inherently in sports.

They're gonna be in sports no matter what Did that convince you?

I kind of forgot So so the basically I do the idea is you can't control There are always going to be certain people who have advantages certain people have disadvantages and I don't want to mischaracterize your argument but the idea is that All right.

Well, you can come to the next one you go.

All right.

Well, I guess not that okay So the idea then is that if you're born to a rich family Advantages and if you're born to a poor family, you'll have Disadvantages so there are already inequities built into the system.