And welcome to another instance of Hello Interviews.

歡迎再次收看《你好，訪談》。

Very clever name, where we're interviewing about interviews.

非常聰明的名字，在這裡我們就採訪進行採訪。

I kind of love the idea here.

我有點喜歡這個想法。

Today, I'm really excited to introduce you guys to Austin McDonald.

今天，我很高興向你們介紹奧斯汀-麥克唐納。

Austin is a friend of mine.

奧斯汀是我的朋友。

He's also a former senior engineering manager at Meta slash Facebook, where he was actually working as the hiring committee chair for iOS and Android Pipeline.

他還曾是 Meta slash Facebook 的高級工程經理，實際上曾擔任 iOS 和 Android 管道的招聘委員會主席。

So very familiar.

太熟悉了

I think you were working in recruiting tools.

我想你是在研究招聘工具。

Is that right?

是這樣嗎？

Yeah, that's right.

是的，沒錯。

My last four years, I was building the tools that the recruiters and the sourcers and even the candidates would use every day for their interviews.

在過去的四年裡，我一直在開發招聘人員、人才搜尋人員甚至應聘者每天用於面試的工具。

So I can't think of anyone more qualified to tell us about the interviewing process than you.

所以，我想不出還有誰比你更有資格告訴我們面試的流程了。

Austin also has a passion for behavioral interviews.

奧斯汀還熱衷於行為面試。

And I know on this channel, we really haven't gone into that enough.

我知道，在這個頻道上，我們對這一點的探討還遠遠不夠。

We really focused a lot of our content on system design.

我們的很多內容都集中在系統設計上。

So I'm really excited to kind of talk with him about behavioral interviewing.

所以，我很高興能和他談談行為面試。

And then also, if you guys are interested in learning more, I'll put a link in the description, but Austin has a great sub stack where he shares tips and advice on, you know, how you can actually think about behavioral interviews and some preparation steps and things.

此外，如果你們有興趣瞭解更多資訊，我會在說明中提供鏈接，但奧斯汀有一個很棒的子堆棧，他在其中分享了一些技巧和建議，你知道，你可以如何實際考慮行為面試和一些準備步驟之類的東西。

Definitely worth a subscribe and a checkout if you haven't looked at it already.

如果您還沒有看過，絕對值得訂閱和結賬。

I sometimes hear from candidates and they say, oh, you know, I'm good.

我有時會聽到候選人說，哦，你知道，我很好。

I can talk about my experience or, you know, I don't think that's as important as my technical interviews.

我可以談談我的經驗，或者，你知道，我不認為這比我的技術面試重要。

Why should candidates care about behavioral interviews?

應聘者為什麼要關注行為面試？

If they've got a lot of good experience, isn't that good enough?

如果他們有豐富的經驗，難道還不夠好嗎？

Great, great question.

很好，很好的問題。

A classic response.

一個經典的回答。

And I hear this a lot.

我經常聽到這樣的話。

So to me, behavioral interviews is the number one interview type that is underprepared for.

是以，在我看來，行為面試是準備不足的第一大面試類型。

And I think if you, you know, just gone online and read some article about the STAR method or whatever, that is not going to be enough, I think, for you to really shine.

我認為，如果你只是上網讀了一些關於 STAR 方法的文章，我認為這不足以讓你真正發光發熱。

And so I have a couple of things that, well, things that I tell candidates.

是以，我有幾件事要告訴候選人。

So number one thing is if you get good at behavioral interviewing, if you really understand what it means to communicate your experience and what you've done in a successful way, you will actually become a better engineer.

是以，第一件事就是，如果你擅長行為面試，如果你真正瞭解成功地交流自己的經驗和所做過的事情意味著什麼，你就會真正成為一名更好的工程師。

So, you know, with some limitations, I would say that practicing coding interviews is not going to necessarily make you a better engineer on a day-to-day basis.

是以，在某些限制條件下，我認為練習編碼面試並不一定能讓你成為一個日常工作能力更強的工程師。

I think that maybe practicing system design might make you better.

我想，也許練習系統設計會讓你變得更好。

But really, if you understand what's successful about your career and what's made all those projects that you've done successful, you will be able to repeat those things and be a much better engineer.

但實際上，如果你瞭解了自己職業生涯的成功之處，瞭解了你所做的所有項目的成功之處，你就能重複這些事情，成為一名更好的工程師。

So is this kind of like the reflections on your own career and kind of that framing is actually helpful in a more general sense than just the interview?

那麼，這是否是一種對你自己職業生涯的反思，這種框架實際上比訪談更有幫助？

Is that what you're saying?

你是這個意思嗎？

Yeah, totally.

是啊，沒錯。

Exactly.

沒錯。

So I think just as when you're going to write your performance review and you're thinking about what made your project successful for that season, I think that's going to enable you to apply that going forward in the same way when you're preparing for a behavioral interview.

是以，我認為，就像你在撰寫績效評估報告時，會思考是什麼讓你的項目在那個季度取得了成功一樣，我認為這將使你在準備行為面試時，能夠以同樣的方式將其應用到今後的工作中。

A lot of it is thinking about your past experience and thinking about what you've done and what you've accomplished and how you went about accomplishing that.

這很大程度上是在思考你過去的經歷，思考你做過什麼，取得過什麼成就，以及你是如何實現這些成就的。

And I think when you go and you do that reflection, it really helps you understand, oh, like this was the key.

我認為，當你去做這種反思時，它真的會幫助你理解，哦，好像這就是關鍵所在。

This was the turning point.

這就是轉捩點。

This is where I really added value.

這才是我真正增值的地方。

And then you can take that forward and apply that to the future project.

然後，你就可以將其應用到未來的項目中。

So I think that's number one in terms of why you should invest.

是以，我認為這是投資的第一要素。

I think number two is that it really is an important part of the hiring process.

我認為第二點是，這確實是招聘過程中的一個重要環節。

It's like important for the companies as they are evaluating you, especially for senior engineers, where every senior engineer starts to look and smell a little bit different than previous senior engineers.

這對公司評估你很重要，尤其是對高級工程師來說，每個高級工程師的外表和氣質都與以前的高級工程師有些不同。

And so you get this opportunity to really showcase what your specific skills and what you've brought to the table.

這樣，你就有機會真正展示你的特殊技能和你所帶來的東西。

And so when you're a hiring manager and you're sitting down thinking about why am I giving this behavioral interview, you're really assessing whether or not this candidate has in the past demonstrated behaviors or actions where they have been successful at building the kinds of projects that you as a hiring manager are hiring someone to do.

是以，當你作為一名招聘經理，坐下來思考我為什麼要進行這次行為面試時，你實際上是在評估這名候選人過去是否表現出了他們在建立項目方面取得成功的行為或行動，而這正是你作為招聘經理所要招聘的項目。

And because past performance is a predictor of future results with people, like not necessarily with your stock portfolio, but with people, then when you assess the past performance of a person, you're really understanding whether or not they will employ those kinds of repeatable actions, repeatable behaviors in whatever new environment you put them in.

因為過去的表現可以預測人的未來結果，比如不一定是你的股票投資組合，而是人的未來結果，所以當你評估一個人過去的表現時，你要真正瞭解他們在任何新的環境中是否會採用那些可重複的行動、可重複的行為。

I see tons of candidates who are getting down level from like staff to senior, senior to mid-level.

我看到很多應聘者從職員降到高級職員，從高級職員降到中級職員。

A lot of times actually behavioral ends up showing up here.

實際上，很多時候行為最終會在這裡出現。

Is this something that you're seeing as well?

你也看到這種情況了嗎？

Oh, huge.

哦，好大。

Well, as a hiring committee chair, what we would do is we would sit down with the packets, the entire interview packet from their phone screen all the way through the onsite, any kind of follow-ups, whatever.

那麼，作為招聘委員會主席，我們要做的就是坐下來研究面試資料包，從電話面試到現場面試的整個面試資料包，以及任何後續問題，等等。

And then we would make a higher decision, but we'd also make a level decision.

然後，我們會做出更高的決定，但也會做出更高水平的決定。

And certainly for level five, level six, so senior engineer, staff engineer, the behavioral interviews start to become really, really important.

當然，對於五級、六級，即高級工程師、員工工程師，行為面試開始變得非常非常重要。

When you're a staff level engineer, you're somebody who is working on projects that last a year or six months, that last a very long time, that involve a lot of different people.

當你是一名員工級工程師時，你所負責的項目會持續一年或六個月，持續很長時間，涉及很多不同的人。

The actions that that staff person takes outside of their kind of own code and their own technical contribution is really what makes or breaks the success of that person.

工作人員在自己的代碼和技術貢獻之外所採取的行動，才是決定其成敗的真正因素。

So I would say that we would often see situations where the system design interview for a level five and the system design interview for a level six would kind of look the same, like, hey, we designed a newsfeed, you know, okay.

所以我想說，我們經常會看到這樣的情況：五級的系統設計面試和六級的系統設計面試看起來是一樣的，比如，嘿，我們設計了一個新聞推送，你知道的，好吧。

It sort of looks and smells the same.

看起來和聞起來都差不多。

Maybe it's a little bit more complete for the six or maybe the six has some depth that they display in the system design.

也許是六人組更完整一些，也許是六人組在系統設計上更有深度。

But then the behavior will be totally different because the level five person would be working on a project with one or two other people of a couple of months and they would be generally getting this direction from someone else, whereas the level six is working across the company or across many different teams.

但是，他們的行為會完全不同，因為五級人員會在幾個月內與其他一兩個人一起開展一個項目，他們一般會從其他人那裡獲得這個方向，而六級人員則是在整個公司或許多不同的團隊中開展工作。

They're the person who is setting direction, picking the metrics, partnering with an engineering manager.

他們是制定方向、選擇衡量標準、與工程經理合作的人。

So that kind of big difference is really seen in the behavioral interview and not the other ones. Well, I think you've sold me.

是以，這種巨大的差異在行為面試中才能真正體現出來，而在其他面試中是看不到的。 好吧，我想你已經說服我了。

Behavioral interviews, very important.

行為面試，非常重要。

Tell me a little bit more about this evaluation process, like as a hiring committee, as an interviewer, what are people looking for in these behavioral interviews?

請再給我講講這個評估過程，比如作為招聘委員會和麵試官，人們在這些行為面試中都在尋找什麼？

I mean, it's not like many of our audience has, it's that, well, I've got, you know, experience, I have some things, I'm not sure actually how to present what I have that lines up with what the interviewer is looking for.

我的意思是，這並不像我們的許多聽眾所想的那樣，而是說，好吧，我有，你知道，經驗，我有一些東西，但我不知道實際上該如何展示我所擁有的東西，以符合面試官的要求。

Can you explain a little bit more about how interviewers are evaluating behavioral interviews?

您能再解釋一下面試官是如何評估行為面試的嗎？

Sure.

當然。

Yeah.

是啊

I have so much to say about this.

對此，我有很多話要說。

I think one thing I would lead with is your stories are probably better than you think they are.

我想有一點我想說的是，你的故事可能比你想象的要好。

Almost every person I've done over 200 in the last year, I think, coaching sessions with other, with, with candidates who are practicing their behaviorals, and I can say that it is almost always the case that your stories are more interesting than you think they are.

我想，在過去的一年裡，幾乎每個人我都做了 200 多場輔導課，輔導對象都是正在練習行為分析的候選人，我可以說，幾乎總是這樣，你的故事比你想象的要有趣得多。

So like, please don't undersell your own experience or think that you're not ready for that next level job or that next level company because of what you've done in the past.

所以，請不要低估自己的經驗，也不要因為自己過去的經歷而認為自己還沒有準備好接受下一份工作或下一家公司。

There's probably really great nuggets that you need to talk about.

你可能需要談論一些非常棒的小插曲。

So let's talk about how a behavioral interviewer, someone on the hiring manager side would extract that signal.

那麼，讓我們來談談行為面試官，也就是招聘經理是如何提取這一信號的。

You got to think about what is their mindset?

你得想想他們的心態是什麼？

Their mindset is like, I have a team, I have a company, I have a position that I'm hiring for.

他們的心態就像，我有一個團隊，我有一家公司，我有一個正在招聘的職位。

That person, once they get into that position, are going to be doing some projects, they're going to be taking some action, working with the team and doing whatever they're doing as a software engineer.

這個人一旦進入這個職位，就要做一些項目，採取一些行動，與團隊合作，做任何他們作為軟件工程師要做的事情。

What does that person need to have?

這個人需要具備什麼條件？

What are the actions they need to take?

他們需要採取哪些行動？

What are those qualities that that person needs to have in order to be successful sometimes in my specific team, or if they're at a bigger company and across the entire company?

有時是在我的特定團隊中，有時是在更大的公司和整個公司中，為了取得成功，這個人需要具備哪些素質？

And so a lot of companies take a structured approach to this.

是以，很多公司在這方面都採取了結構化的方法。

In general, the idea is that this hiring manager or this interviewer has an idea of what's the most important things about a candidate.

一般來說，我們的想法是，這位招聘經理或面試官對應聘者最重要的事情有一個概念。

These are things like initiative, perseverance, conflict resolution, leadership, communication skills, those kinds of things, big bucket, and often soft.

這些都是諸如主動性、毅力、解決衝突的能力、領導力、溝通技巧之類的東西。

Those categories, those are, at least for me, when I was first getting started interviewing, felt to me like an unlaw that in general, interviewers are trying to assess these signals and they're using those signals to make a hiring determination.

至少對我來說，在我剛開始面試的時候，我覺得這些類別就像一條不合法的法律，一般來說，面試官都會試圖評估這些信號，並通過這些信號來決定是否錄用。

Can you talk us through like what that dynamic looks like?

你能告訴我們這種動態是什麼樣的嗎？

What are those signals and why do they use them?

這些信號是什麼，為什麼要使用它們？

Yeah.

是啊

And actually there's even a whole like a field of industrial psychology called selection science, where people get PhDs and assessing employees and understanding like what are the key elements of success for this company or this team or this, this role.

實際上，在工業心理學中甚至有一個叫做 "選擇科學 "的領域，在這個領域中，人們獲得博士學位，並對員工進行評估，瞭解這家公司、這個團隊或這個角色成功的關鍵因素是什麼。

But let's talk through, you know, a few of them, ones that are really common across lots of different companies.

不過，讓我們來討論一下，你知道的，其中有幾個是很多不同公司都會遇到的問題。

So one of them is initiative.

是以，其中之一就是主動性。

So are you able to, are you able to see a problem and then you go after solving that problem?

那麼，你是否能夠看到問題所在，然後去解決問題？

Another one might be handling ambiguity.

另一個可能是處理模稜兩可的問題。

So if you are going to be able to, you know, look at a problem that is, you don't know what the next step is and you go and you figure out what to do in that situation.

所以，如果你能夠，你知道，看到一個問題，你不知道下一步該怎麼做，你就會去想在這種情況下該怎麼做。

Perseverance, you know, pushing through challenges and difficulties.

毅力，你知道的，就是克服挑戰和困難。

Conflict resolution, right?

解決衝突，對嗎？

So oftentimes working with other people and especially at higher levels, we may be required to make trade-offs or resolve conflicts that come along the way.

是以，在與其他人，尤其是更高層次的人合作時，我們可能需要做出取捨或解決途中出現的衝突。

I think that a lot of companies are really interested in people having a growth mindset.

我認為，很多公司都非常希望員工擁有成長型思維。

So are you able to take feedback well, provide feedback to others and then respond actively to, to the feedback that you received?

那麼，你是否能夠很好地接受反饋，向他人提供反饋，然後對收到的反饋做出積極迴應？

Communication skills.

溝通技巧。

So are you able to communicate in a written way?

那麼，您能用書面方式進行交流嗎？

Are you able to communicate in a verbal way?

您能用語言交流嗎？

Are you able to know when to send a message or when to write a document, when to call a meeting?

您是否知道何時發送信息、何時撰寫文件、何時召集會議？

Like those are all skills that a hiring manager is looking for.

就像這些都是招聘經理正在尋找的技能一樣。

In general, is the hiring manager going yes or no on initiative or is there like a scale that they're thinking through?

一般來說，招聘經理對主動性是 "是 "還是 "否"，或者他們是否有自己的標準？

If they've thought about it in a structured way, they're certainly thinking about it as a scale because the initiative that say a new engineer might take an initiative that a staff engineer might take very different.

如果他們有條理地考慮過這個問題，他們肯定會把它當作一個尺度來考慮，因為一個新工程師可能採取的舉措和一個員工工程師可能採取的舉措是完全不同的。

So a new engineer, the initiative is like, I run out of work.

是以，新工程師會主動提出，我沒有工作了。

I need to go find work.

我得去找工作了。

Let me go talk to the senior engineer or the, you know, the the hiring manager or the, and figure out what I'm supposed to do next.

讓我去跟高級工程師或招聘經理談談，看看下一步我該怎麼做。

But for a staff engineer, this might be, I see this problem in a company that that has been persistent for many years.

但對於一名員工工程師來說，這可能是一個問題，我在一家公司看到這個問題已經持續了很多年。

I'm going to figure out a way to solve that problem.

我要想辦法解決這個問題。

So like the initiative is the same good action, but it's very different and it looks very different.

是以，就像倡議是相同的好行動，但它非常不同，看起來也非常不同。

And this is part of how the hiring manager is deciding what level they want to hire this candidate as based on at which scope actions are you taking.

這也是招聘經理根據應聘者所採取的行動範圍來決定聘用他的級別的一部分。

Okay.

好的

So it's, it's kind of like a, they're looking at each of these signals according to the various levels of response, which is kind of a mid-level response might look different than a staff level response.

是以，這就像是一種，他們根據不同的響應級別來看待每一個信號，這就像是中級響應可能看起來與工作人員級別的響應不同。

Yeah, totally.

是啊，沒錯。

Totally.

完全是

When hiring managers are looking at this, how much of this is a sniff test?

招聘經理在審查時，有多少是在進行嗅覺測試？

How much of this is they, they like me.

這其中有多少是他們，他們喜歡我。

And, and, you know, they're generally looking out to see someone who's like them versus they're taking this objective, Spock-like approach to try to figure out initiative levels and so on and so forth.

而且，你知道，他們一般是在尋找和他們一樣的人，而不是採取這種客觀的、斯波克式的方法，來試圖找出主動性水準等等。

Yes.

是的。

Right.

對

So I think this is a really good point.

是以，我認為這是一個非常好的觀點。

And I do think, unfortunately, that likability does play a big role.

不幸的是，我確實認為 "好感度 "起了很大作用。

I think we're, as humans, we're naturally oriented to talk to someone and see, do we trust this person, you know, do we like them, do they feel like us?

我認為，作為人類，我們天生就喜歡與人交談，看看我們是否信任這個人，你知道，我們是否喜歡他，他是否感覺像我們？

And I think that these, this approach where you structure or companies would structure what they're looking for is actually an attempt to get away from simple, like, do I want to get a beer with this candidate?

我認為，這種由你或公司來安排他們所尋找的人的方法，實際上是試圖擺脫簡單的 "我是否想和這位候選人一起喝啤酒？

Right.

對

Which is a very bad way to hire people.

這是一種非常糟糕的用人方式。

And I think that, but I, at the same time as a candidate, I think you, especially in the beginning part of the interview where you're establishing rapport and you're telling, talking about yourself and you're talking about the, maybe a favorite project.

我認為，但同時，作為候選人，我認為你，尤其是在面試的開始部分，你要建立融洽的關係，你要講述，談論你自己，你要談論，也許是你最喜歡的項目。

So be impactful that you've done.

所以，你所做的事情要有影響力。

I think how you engage with the interviewer and whether or not you come across as confident, whether or not you come across as relaxed, I do think those things make a difference and probably more of a difference than most hiring managers would, would it. Yeah.

我認為，你如何與面試官打交道，你是否表現得自信，你是否表現得放鬆，我認為這些都會產生影響，而且可能比大多數招聘經理的影響更大。 是啊。

It does feel like there is maybe a bit of a, a standard that we'd all like to aspire to, which is this unbiased objective process where we find the best talent.

這確實讓人覺得，我們都希望能有一個標準，那就是在這個公正客觀的過程中，我們能找到最優秀的人才。

And then the reality on the ground, which is interviewers are humans.

而現實情況是，面試官也是人。

They kind of see themselves in other people and that impacts their subjective assessments of their, their capabilities.

他們會在別人身上看到自己的影子，這影響了他們對自己能力的主觀評估。

Yeah, for sure.

是的，當然。

I mean, these structured interviewing approaches where you identify what's important in candidates and then you assess them based on those signal areas that we're talking about have been proven scientifically via psychology studies to reduce bias.

我的意思是，通過這些結構化面試方法，你可以找出候選人的重要之處，然後根據我們所說的這些信號領域對他們進行評估，通過心理學研究，這些方法已被科學證明可以減少偏見。

And so this is why you see the best run companies or largest companies employing this kind of structured approach.

這就是為什麼經營最好的公司或最大的公司都採用這種結構化方法的原因。

You can oftentimes see this when you're a candidate, when you're listening to people's questions, you can see them move from sort of one signal area to another, or the question that they ask fits in with a totally different sort of part aspect of, of, of working.

當你是候選人時，你經常可以看到這一點，當你聽別人提問時，你可以看到他們從一個信號區轉移到另一個信號區，或者他們提出的問題與工作的一個完全不同的部分相吻合。

And honestly, I think that those systems are really good.

老實說，我覺得這些系統真的很不錯。

I think they do at times cause interviewers to jump around instead of having a conversation and keeping the candidate at ease, they can be like, okay, we're done with the conflict resolution now onto growth.

我認為這些問題有時會導致面試官跳來跳去，而不是與應聘者進行對話，讓應聘者保持輕鬆，他們可能會說："好了，我們已經解決了衝突，現在開始成長吧。

You know, I think that that kind of a structured approach with an interviewer who is not skilled and who's not good at helping the candidate, you know, feel at ease can, can feel a little bit, you know, block, you know, jerky to the, to the candidate.

我認為，如果面試官技術不熟練，不善於幫助應聘者，讓應聘者感覺自在，那麼這種有條理的面試方式就會讓應聘者感覺有點，你知道的，阻塞，你知道的，生硬。

Yeah.

是啊

Well, so this is a helpful foundation.

那麼，這就是一個有用的基礎。

So you've got these signals that these interviewers are looking for both to make a leveling determination and to decide whether you're going to be hired.

是以，面試官會通過這些信號來確定你的水準，並決定是否錄用你。

Now, candidates come in obviously with their own experience.

現在，候選人顯然是帶著自己的經驗來的。

The real question I think for most people is, all right, how do I present my experience, the projects that I've worked on, the things that I care about in the way that best gives the interviewer what they need in order to make a good decision?