He is a trial lawyer, so he knows a thing or two about arguing.

Jefferson Fisher took his skills from the courtroom to social media where he gives practical advice on how to handle difficult conversations.

And he's racked up 10 million followers along the way.

His new book, The Next Conversation, argue less, talk more, breaks down how to communicate more effectively and navigate complex conversations with confidence.

Jefferson Fisher joins us now.

Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for having me.

I'm honored to be here.

We're honored.

So, a lot of times these conversations start out, you know, by someone approaching their significant other with an issue.

And then the other person says, well, you do that too or well, you know, I did that last time.

Right.

You say, don't make it about you.

Why?

So what I teach is you want to have something to learn rather than something to prove.

If I'm always coming at you with my finger pointed, you're naturally going to get defensive.

But if I can come at it with something to learn as in, help me understand or I'm curious how, it's it's going to make it a whole lot better and then they're not going to get defensive and your conversation is going to go better.

And we should use those words.

Honey, I'm curious about why you do it this way.

Like, help me understand, I'm curious how you use that actual terminology.

Yeah, instead of beginning your question with why?

Like, why is very accusatory.

Oh.

If you say why is like, why'd you do it that way?

Like, because I wanted to, that's why.

Yeah.

But if you ask how or where or when, they're not going to get nearly as offensive.

Because it doesn't sound accusatory as if they did something wrong.

Even if you are being accusatory and you think they're wrong, you shouldn't seek to win the argument is another principle or theme here in the book.

Why, what's wrong with winning an argument?

Good question.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

I saw you.

Nice.

Uh, when you set out to win an argument, you often lose the relationship.

All you've won is their contempt.

You've won to be the first to apologize, most likely.

Yeah.

Uh, instead you want to see arguments as something to unravel, you take the loose ends and you try and find the knot.

Even when you can ask what's missing?

What am I missing?

That's going to go a whole lot better than trying to prove that they've done something wrong.

Okay, you also give us another secret to good communication, which is the gift of pause.

Yes.

Anytime somebody says something ugly, rude, belittling, and you can just give it five to seven seconds of nothing and just let it hang and let their words fall.

You're the one who seems much more in control rather than going, that's not true, that's not, what about you?

Whenever you raise to that level, you're the one who looks more emotionally reactive.

Instead, you give it that pause, you're the one who seems and stays in control.

And then there are they're probably apologizing before anyone says anything else.

Exactly.

If you can give it that pause, a lot of the times people can hear their words back, it echoes, and so what they'll do is go, I didn't mean that or I'm sorry or they'll try and twist their words back, they take it back.

And then if you really want to press it after the pause, you repeat the words back to them or I oh no, I love this part, I'm going to need you to tell me that again.

Yes, absolutely.

You got it.

Oh.

Yes, that's perfect.

So anytime somebody says something rude, you give that silence and you ask the question that get them to repeat it.

So you could say, I need you to say that again or I didn't catch that, can you repeat it for me?

Like, I must have not heard you correctly, you wouldn't possibly be that rude to me.

Exactly.

You got it.

And then at that point, all the fun's taken out of it, the the that original hit, that flash that they wanted, they're not going to get and now it's just not going to be that fun.

Tail between their legs.

Okay, this is obviously a very divisive political time.

How can people have conversations where they disagree without being disgruntled?

Yeah, so one uh technique anybody can use while watching this is instead of saying I disagree, switch it to I see things differently.

When you say things from a matter of perspective, people don't turn it as you're doing something wrong, what I'm saying is where I'm sitting, I see something different.

So instead of I disagree, it's I see something differently or I take another approach or I tend to lean the opposite.

What you're doing is putting it in terms of a matter of perspective rather than saying what you believe is inaccurate.

Exactly, you're giving them space for believing what they believe, which is, you know, also possible.

Yeah.

Yeah, and then there's humility in it and that like none of us really know with any kind of certainty what's happening or where this world is going, right?

Right.

We're all trying to figure it out in the dark, that's the truth.

Um, but you know, in your day job as a personal injury lawyer, you've got to make hard cases and win arguments.

None of this like, uh, who wants to win?

Your client wants to win.

Of course.

Yeah, yeah.

So it's a little bit different in law because you don't get to choose your facts and you don't get to choose the law.

I I have to play the the the cards that have been dealt to me.

So what the difference is how you persuade and use the power of your words to influence, particularly to a jury of 12 people or a judge and so it's all about the power of what you say next.

You're a married guy, two kids, you think your wife's going to read that and use any of the tools against you?

Absolutely not.

I mean she's yeah, she she knows it like the back of her hand.

Is she here?

Yes, the kids are here.

Everybody's here.

Hey.

Hey.

Can we see her?

Can you spin around on the jib there to see the wife by the green room?

I don't know if we can right now.

There they are, look at that beautiful family.

Hi.

Oh, Jefferson Fisher, thank you so much for being here.

The next conversation.

Argue less and talk more is available now.