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  • There is an entire genre of YouTube videos

  • devoted to an experience which

  • I am certain that everyone in this room has had.

  • It entails an individual who,

  • thinking they're alone,

  • engages in some expressive behavior

  • wild singing, gyrating dancing,

  • some mild sexual activity

  • only to discover that, in fact, they are not alone,

  • that there is a person watching and lurking,

  • the discovery of which causes them

  • to immediately cease what they were doing

  • in horror.

  • The sense of shame and humiliation

  • in their face is palpable.

  • It's the sense of,

  • "This is something I'm willing to do

  • only if no one else is watching."

  • This is the crux of the work

  • on which I have been singularly focused

  • for the last 16 months,

  • the question of why privacy matters,

  • a question that has arisen

  • in the context of a global debate,

  • enabled by the revelations of Edward Snowden

  • that the United States and its partners,

  • unbeknownst to the entire world,

  • has converted the Internet,

  • once heralded as an unprecedented tool

  • of liberation and democratization,

  • into an unprecedented zone

  • of mass, indiscriminate surveillance.

  • There is a very common sentiment

  • that arises in this debate,

  • even among people who are uncomfortable

  • with mass surveillance, which says

  • that there is no real harm

  • that comes from this large-scale invasion

  • because only people who are engaged in bad acts

  • have a reason to want to hide

  • and to care about their privacy.

  • This worldview is implicitly grounded

  • in the proposition that there are two kinds of people in the world,

  • good people and bad people.

  • Bad people are those who plot terrorist attacks

  • or who engage in violent criminality

  • and therefore have reasons to want to hide what they're doing,

  • have reasons to care about their privacy.

  • But by contrast, good people

  • are people who go to work,

  • come home, raise their children, watch television.

  • They use the Internet not to plot bombing attacks

  • but to read the news or exchange recipes

  • or to plan their kids' Little League games,

  • and those people are doing nothing wrong

  • and therefore have nothing to hide

  • and no reason to fear

  • the government monitoring them.

  • The people who are actually saying that

  • are engaged in a very extreme act

  • of self-deprecation.

  • What they're really saying is,

  • "I have agreed to make myself

  • such a harmless and unthreatening

  • and uninteresting person that I actually don't fear

  • having the government know what it is that I'm doing."

  • This mindset has found what I think

  • is its purest expression

  • in a 2009 interview with

  • the longtime CEO of Google, Eric Schmidt, who,

  • when asked about all the different ways his company

  • is causing invasions of privacy

  • for hundreds of millions of people around the world,

  • said this: He said,

  • "If you're doing something that you don't want

  • other people to know,

  • maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."

  • Now, there's all kinds of things to say about

  • that mentality,

  • the first of which is that the people who say that,

  • who say that privacy isn't really important,

  • they don't actually believe it,

  • and the way you know that they don't actually believe it

  • is that while they say with their words that privacy doesn't matter,

  • with their actions, they take all kinds of steps

  • to safeguard their privacy.

  • They put passwords on their email

  • and their social media accounts,

  • they put locks on their bedroom

  • and bathroom doors,

  • all steps designed to prevent other people

  • from entering what they consider their private realm

  • and knowing what it is that they don't want other people to know.

  • The very same Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Google,

  • ordered his employees at Google

  • to cease speaking with the online

  • Internet magazine CNET

  • after CNET published an article

  • full of personal, private information

  • about Eric Schmidt,

  • which it obtained exclusively through Google searches

  • and using other Google products. (Laughter)

  • This same division can be seen

  • with the CEO of Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg,

  • who in an infamous interview in 2010

  • pronounced that privacy is no longer

  • a "social norm."

  • Last year, Mark Zuckerberg and his new wife

  • purchased not only their own house

  • but also all four adjacent houses in Palo Alto

  • for a total of 30 million dollars

  • in order to ensure that they enjoyed a zone of privacy

  • that prevented other people from monitoring

  • what they do in their personal lives.

  • Over the last 16 months, as I've debated this issue around the world,

  • every single time somebody has said to me,

  • "I don't really worry about invasions of privacy

  • because I don't have anything to hide."

  • I always say the same thing to them.

  • I get out a pen, I write down my email address.

  • I say, "Here's my email address.

  • What I want you to do when you get home

  • is email me the passwords

  • to all of your email accounts,

  • not just the nice, respectable work one in your name,

  • but all of them,

  • because I want to be able to just troll through

  • what it is you're doing online,

  • read what I want to read and publish whatever I find interesting.

  • After all, if you're not a bad person,

  • if you're doing nothing wrong,

  • you should have nothing to hide."

  • Not a single person has taken me up on that offer.

  • I check and — (Applause)

  • I check that email account religiously all the time.

  • It's a very desolate place.

  • And there's a reason for that,

  • which is that we as human beings,

  • even those of us who in words

  • disclaim the importance of our own privacy,

  • instinctively understand

  • the profound importance of it.

  • It is true that as human beings, we're social animals,

  • which means we have a need for other people

  • to know what we're doing and saying and thinking,

  • which is why we voluntarily publish information about ourselves online.

  • But equally essential to what it means

  • to be a free and fulfilled human being

  • is to have a place that we can go

  • and be free of the judgmental eyes of other people.

  • There's a reason why we seek that out,

  • and our reason is that all of us

  • not just terrorists and criminals, all of us

  • have things to hide.

  • There are all sorts of things that we do and think

  • that we're willing to tell our physician

  • or our lawyer or our psychologist or our spouse

  • or our best friend that we would be mortified

  • for the rest of the world to learn.

  • We make judgments every single day

  • about the kinds of things that we say and think and do

  • that we're willing to have other people know,

  • and the kinds of things that we say and think and do

  • that we don't want anyone else to know about.

  • People can very easily in words claim

  • that they don't value their privacy,

  • but their actions negate the authenticity of that belief.

  • Now, there's a reason why privacy is so craved

  • universally and instinctively.

  • It isn't just a reflexive movement

  • like breathing air or drinking water.

  • The reason is that when we're in a state

  • where we can be monitored, where we can be watched,

  • our behavior changes dramatically.

  • The range of behavioral options that we consider

  • when we think we're being watched

  • severely reduce.

  • This is just a fact of human nature

  • that has been recognized in social science

  • and in literature and in religion

  • and in virtually every field of discipline.

  • There are dozens of psychological studies

  • that prove that when somebody knows

  • that they might be watched,

  • the behavior they engage in

  • is vastly more conformist and compliant.

  • Human shame is a very powerful motivator,

  • as is the desire to avoid it,

  • and that's the reason why people,

  • when they're in a state of being watched, make decisions

  • not that are the byproduct of their own agency

  • but that are about the expectations

  • that others have of them

  • or the mandates of societal orthodoxy.

  • This realization was exploited most powerfully

  • for pragmatic ends by the 18th- century philosopher Jeremy Bentham,

  • who set out to resolve an important problem

  • ushered in by the industrial age,

  • where, for the first time, institutions had become

  • so large and centralized

  • that they were no longer able to monitor

  • and therefore control each one of their individual members,

  • and the solution that he devised

  • was an architectural design

  • originally intended to be implemented in prisons

  • that he called the panopticon,

  • the primary attribute of which was the construction

  • of an enormous tower in the center of the institution

  • where whoever controlled the institution

  • could at any moment watch any of the inmates,

  • although they couldn't watch all of them at all times.

  • And crucial to this design

  • was that the inmates could not actually

  • see into the panopticon, into the tower,

  • and so they never knew

  • if they were being watched or even when.

  • And what made him so excited about this discovery

  • was that that would mean that the prisoners

  • would have to assume that they were being watched

  • at any given moment,

  • which would be the ultimate enforcer

  • for obedience and compliance.

  • The 20th-century French philosopher Michel Foucault

  • realized that that model could be used

  • not just for prisons but for every institution

  • that seeks to control human behavior:

  • schools, hospitals, factories, workplaces.

  • And what he said was that this mindset,

  • this framework discovered by Bentham,

  • was the key means of societal control

  • for modern, Western societies,

  • which no longer need

  • the overt weapons of tyranny

  • punishing or imprisoning or killing dissidents,

  • or legally compelling loyalty to a particular party

  • because mass surveillance creates

  • a prison in the mind

  • that is a much more subtle

  • though much more effective means

  • of fostering compliance with social norms

  • or with social orthodoxy,

  • much more effective

  • than brute force could ever be.

  • The most iconic work of literature about surveillance

  • and privacy is the George Orwell novel "1984,"

  • which we all learn in school, and therefore it's almost become a cliche.

  • In fact, whenever you bring it up in a debate about surveillance,

  • people instantaneously dismiss it

  • as inapplicable, and what they say is,

  • "Oh, well in '1984,' there were monitors in people's homes,

  • they were being watched at every given moment,

  • and that has nothing to do with the surveillance state that we face."

  • That is an actual fundamental misapprehension

  • of the warnings that Orwell issued in "1984."

  • The warning that he was issuing

  • was about a surveillance state

  • not that monitored everybody at all times,

  • but where people were aware that they could

  • be monitored at any given moment.

  • Here is how Orwell's narrator, Winston Smith,

  • described the surveillance system

  • that they faced:

  • "There was, of course, no way of knowing

  • whether you were being watched at any given moment."

  • He went on to say,

  • "At any rate, they could plug in your wire

  • whenever they wanted to.

  • You had to live, did live,

  • from habit that became instinct,

  • in the assumption that every sound you made

  • was overheard and except in darkness

  • every movement scrutinized."

  • The Abrahamic religions similarly posit

  • that there's an invisible, all-knowing authority

  • who, because of its omniscience,

  • always watches whatever you're doing,

  • which means you never have a private moment,

  • the ultimate enforcer

  • for obedience to its dictates.

  • What all of these seemingly disparate works

  • recognize, the conclusion that they all reach,

  • is that a society in which people

  • can be monitored at all times

  • is a society that breeds conformity

  • and obedience and submission,

  • which is why every tyrant,

  • the most overt to the most subtle,

  • craves that system.

  • Conversely, even more importantly,

  • it is a realm of privacy,

  • the ability to go somewhere where we can think

  • and reason and interact and speak

  • without the judgmental eyes of others being cast upon us,

  • in which creativity and exploration

  • and dissent exclusively reside,

  • and that is the reason why,

  • when we allow a society to exist

  • in which we're subject to constant monitoring,

  • we allow the essence of human freedom

  • to be severely crippled.

  • The last point I want to observe about this mindset,

  • the idea that only people who are doing something wrong

  • have things to hide and therefore reasons to care about privacy,

  • is that it entrenches two very destructive messages,

  • two destructive lessons,

  • the first of which is that

  • the only people who care about privacy,

  • the only people who will seek out privacy,

  • are by definition bad people.

  • This is a conclusion that we should have

  • all kinds of reasons for avoiding,

  • the most important of which is that when you say,

  • "somebody who is doing bad things,"

  • you probably mean things like plotting a terrorist attack

  • or engaging in violent criminality,

  • a much narrower conception

  • of what people who wield power mean

  • when they say, "doing bad things."

  • For them, "doing bad things" typically means

  • doing something that poses meaningful challenges

  • to the exercise of our own power.

  • The other really destructive

  • and, I think, even more insidious lesson

  • that comes from accepting this mindset

  • is there's an implicit bargain

  • that people who accept this mindset have accepted,

  • and that bargain is this:

  • If you're willing to render yourself

  • sufficiently harmless,

  • sufficiently unthreatening

  • to those who wield political power,

  • then and only then can you be free

  • of the dangers of surveillance.

  • It's only those who are dissidents,

  • who challenge power,

  • who have something to worry about.

  • There are all kinds of reasons why we should want to avoid that lesson as well.

  • You may be a person who, right now,

  • doesn't want to engage in that behavior,

  • but at some point in the future you might.

  • Even if you're somebody who decides

  • that you never want to,

  • the fact that there are other people

  • who are willing to and able to resist

  • and be adversarial to those in power

  • dissidents and journalists

  • and activists and a whole range of others

  • is something that brings us all collective good

  • that we should want to preserve.

  • Equally critical is that the measure

  • of how free a society is

  • is not how it treats its good,

  • obedient, compliant citizens,

  • but how it treats its dissidents

  • and those who resist orthodoxy.

  • But the most important reason

  • is that a system of mass surveillance

  • suppresses our own freedom in all sorts of ways.

  • It renders off-limits

  • all kinds of behavioral choices

  • without our even knowing that it's happened.

  • The renowned socialist activist Rosa Luxemburg

  • once said, "He who does not move

  • does not notice his chains."

  • We can try and render the chains

  • of mass surveillance invisible or undetectable,

  • but the constraints that it imposes on us

  • do not become any less potent.

  • Thank you very much.

  • (Applause)

  • Thank you.

  • (Applause)

  • Thank you.

  • (Applause)

  • Bruno Giussani: Glenn, thank you.

  • The case is rather convincing, I have to say,

  • but I want to bring you back

  • to the last 16 months and to Edward Snowden

  • for a few questions, if you don't mind.

  • The first one is personal to you.

  • We have all read about the arrest of your partner,

  • David Miranda in London, and other difficulties,

  • but I assume that

  • in terms of personal engagement and risk,

  • that the pressure on you is not that easy

  • to take on the biggest sovereign organizations in the world.

  • Tell us a little bit about that.

  • Glenn Greenwald: You know, I think one of the things that happens

  • is that people's courage in this regard

  • gets contagious,

  • and so although I and the other journalists with whom I was working

  • were certainly aware of the risk

  • the United States continues to be the most powerful country in the world

  • and doesn't appreciate it when you

  • disclose thousands of their secrets

  • on the Internet at will

  • seeing somebody who is a 29-year-old

  • ordinary person who grew up in

  • a very ordinary environment

  • exercise the degree of principled courage that Edward Snowden risked,

  • knowing that he was going to go to prison for the rest of his life

  • or that his life would unravel,

  • inspired me and inspired other journalists

  • and inspired, I think, people around the world,

  • including future whistleblowers,

  • to realize that they can engage in that kind of behavior as well.

  • BG: I'm curious about your relationship with Ed Snowden,

  • because you have spoken with him a lot,

  • and you certainly continue doing so,

  • but in your book, you never call him Edward,

  • nor Ed, you say "Snowden." How come?

  • GG: You know, I'm sure that's something

  • for a team of psychologists to examine. (Laughter)

  • I don't really know. The reason I think that,

  • one of the important objectives that he actually had,

  • one of his, I think, most important tactics,

  • was that he knew that one of the ways

  • to distract attention from the substance of the revelations

  • would be to try and personalize the focus on him,

  • and for that reason, he stayed out of the media.

  • He tried not to ever have his personal life

  • subject to examination,

  • and so I think calling him Snowden

  • is a way of just identifying him as this important historical actor

  • rather than trying to personalize him in a way

  • that might distract attention from the substance.

  • Moderator: So his revelations, your analysis,

  • the work of other journalists,

  • have really developed the debate,

  • and many governments, for example, have reacted,

  • including in Brazil, with projects and programs

  • to reshape a little bit the design of the Internet, etc.

  • There are a lot of things going on in that sense.

  • But I'm wondering, for you personally,

  • what is the endgame?

  • At what point will you think,

  • well, actually, we've succeeded in moving the dial?

  • GG: Well, I mean, the endgame for me as a journalist

  • is very simple, which is to make sure

  • that every single document that's newsworthy

  • and that ought to be disclosed

  • ends up being disclosed,

  • and that secrets that should never have been kept in the first place

  • end up uncovered.

  • To me, that's the essence of journalism

  • and that's what I'm committed to doing.

  • As somebody who finds mass surveillance odious

  • for all the reasons I just talked about and a lot more,

  • I mean, I look at this as work that will never end

  • until governments around the world

  • are no longer able to subject entire populations

  • to monitoring and surveillance

  • unless they convince some court or some entity

  • that the person they've targeted

  • has actually done something wrong.

  • To me, that's the way that privacy can be rejuvenated.

  • BG: So Snowden is very, as we've seen at TED,

  • is very articulate in presenting and portraying himself

  • as a defender of democratic values

  • and democratic principles.

  • But then, many people really find it difficult to believe

  • that those are his only motivations.

  • They find it difficult to believe

  • that there was no money involved,

  • that he didn't sell some of those secrets,

  • even to China and to Russia,

  • which are clearly not the best friends

  • of the United States right now.

  • And I'm sure many people in the room

  • are wondering the same question.

  • Do you consider it possible there is

  • that part of Snowden we've not seen yet?

  • GG: No, I consider that absurd and idiotic.

  • (Laughter) If you wanted to,

  • and I know you're just playing devil's advocate,

  • but if you wanted to sell

  • secrets to another country,

  • which he could have done and become

  • extremely rich doing so,

  • the last thing you would do is take those secrets

  • and give them to journalists and ask journalists to publish them,

  • because it makes those secrets worthless.

  • People who want to enrich themselves

  • do it secretly by selling secrets to the government,

  • but I think there's one important point worth making,

  • which is, that accusation comes from

  • people in the U.S. government,

  • from people in the media who are loyalists

  • to these various governments,

  • and I think a lot of times when people make accusations like that about other people

  • "Oh, he can't really be doing this

  • for principled reasons,

  • he must have some corrupt, nefarious reason" —

  • they're saying a lot more about themselves

  • than they are the target of their accusations,

  • because — (Applause) —

  • those people, the ones who make that accusation,

  • they themselves never act

  • for any reason other than corrupt reasons,

  • so they assume

  • that everybody else is plagued by the same disease

  • of soullessness as they are,

  • and so that's the assumption.

  • (Applause)

  • BG: Glenn, thank you very much. GG: Thank you very much.

  • BG: Glenn Greenwald.

  • (Applause)

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