Your software, Linux, is in millions of computers,

你的 Linux 軟體 裝在數百萬台電腦內，

it probably powers much of the Internet.

大部分的網路都靠它驅動。

And I think that there are, like,

我想現在大概有

a billion and a half active Android devices out there.

十五億支 Android 裝置在用。

Your software is in every single one of them.

你的軟體也裝在每一支裡面。

It's kind of amazing.

這真了不起。

You must have some amazing software headquarters driving all this.

你一定有很了不起的 軟體總部操縱這些。

That's what I thought -- and I was shocked when I saw a picture of it.

我原本是這麼想的， 所以我看到這張照片時相當驚訝。

I mean, this is --

我是說，這個──

this is the Linux world headquarters.

這個就是 Linux 全球總部。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

(Applause)

（掌聲）

Linus Torvalds: It really doesn't look like much.

林納斯·托瓦茲： 這看起來真的沒什麼了不起。

And I have to say,

我得說，

the most interesting part in this picture,

這張照片最有意思的部分，

that people mostly react to,

大家最有反應的地方，

is the walking desk.

就是這臺跑步機辦公桌。

It is the most interesting part in my office

我的辦公室裡就這個最好玩，

and I'm not actually using it anymore.

我現在其實不用它了。

And I think the two things are related.

我想這兩件事其實相關。

The way I work is ...

我的工作方式是──

I want to not have external stimulation.

我不想要有外界刺激。

You can kind of see, on the walls are this light green.

你們大概看得出來， 牆面漆著淡綠色。

I'm told that at mental institutions they use that on the walls.

人家告訴我精神病院的牆壁 都漆這種顏色。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

It's like a calming color,

這是讓人平靜的顏色，

it's not something that really stimulates you.

這不是會刺激你的東西。

What you can't see is the computer here, you only see the screen,

你看不到的是那裡有臺電腦， 你只能看到螢幕，

but the main thing I worry about in my computer is --

但是我最擔心電腦的部分是──

it doesn't have to be big and powerful, although I like that --

它不用很大很強， 雖然這部分我也喜歡──

it really has to be completely silent.

但它真的必須完全靜音。

I know people who work for Google

我認識一些 在 Google 工作的人，

and they have their own small data center at home,

他們在家裡 有自己的小型資料中心，

and I don't do that.

但是我沒有。

My office is the most boring office you'll ever see.

我的辦公室是你見過 最乏味的辦公室。

And I sit there alone in the quiet.

我自己一個人 坐在很安靜的環境裡。

If the cat comes up,

如果我的貓跑來了，

it sits in my lap.

牠會坐在我的腿上。

And I want to hear the cat purring,

我要聽貓咕嚕咕嚕的聲音，

not the sound of the fans in the computer.

不要聽電腦風扇的聲音。

CA: So this is astonishing,

克：所以這真令人驚訝，

because working this way,

因為你這種工作方式，

you're able to run this vast technology empire --

還能管理這麼大的科技帝國──

it is an empire --

這的確是個帝國──

so that's an amazing testament to the power of open source.

所以這就是開放原始碼 力量有多大的驚人證據。

Tell us how you got to understand open source

跟我們聊聊你怎麼開始 了解開放原始碼，

and how it lead to the development of Linux.

及這如何帶領你開發 Linux。

LT: I mean, I still work alone.

林：我是說，我仍然是獨行俠。

Really -- I work alone in my house,

真的，我自己一個人在家裡工作，

often in my bathrobe.

通常是穿著浴袍。

When a photographer shows up, I dress up,

有攝影師來了， 我就穿整齊一點，

so I have clothes on.

所以我有穿衣服。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And that's how I've always worked.

我總是這樣工作。

I mean, this was how I started Linux, too.

我是說， 我也是這樣開始 Linux。

I did not start Linux as a collaborative project.

我開始 Linux 時， 沒有把它當成協同計劃。

I started it as one in a series of many projects

我開始是把它當成 一系列計劃中的一個，

I had done at the time for myself,

我當時是為自己做的，

partly because I needed the end result,

部分原因是我需要最終結果，

but even more because I just enjoyed programming.

但是更重要的是 我就是喜歡寫程式。

So it was about the end of the journey,

所以重點是旅程的終點，

which, 25 years later, we still have not reached.

然而 25 年後， 我們還沒有達到目的地。

But it was really about the fact that I was looking for a project on my own

但事實真的是 我在為自己找個計劃，

and there was no open source, really, on my radar at all.

說真的開放原始碼 根本不在我的考慮範圍之內。

And what happened is ...

當時的情況是──

the project grows and becomes something you want to show off to people.

計劃有進展， 變成你很想跟人炫耀的東西。

Really, this is more of a, "Wow, look at what I did!"

說真的，這更像是： 「哇，你看我做了什麼！」

And trust me -- it was not that great back then.

相信我，那時候沒有現在這麼好。

I made it publicly available,

我把它公開共享，

and it wasn't even open source at that point.

那時候根本還不是開放原始碼。

At that point it was source that was open, but there was no intention

那個時候原始碼是開放的， 但是背後根本沒有意圖

behind using the kind of open-source methodology that we think of today

要用我們今天認為的 開放原始碼方法論來改進。

to improve it.

這更像是：

It was more like,

「你看，我花了大半年做這個，

"Look, I've been working on this for half a year,

我想聽聽意見。」

I'd love to have comments."

然後有些人來接觸我。

And other people approached me.

在赫爾辛基大學，

At the University of Helsinki,

我有個朋友在做開放原始碼──

I had a friend who was one of the open source --

那時候大家還叫「自由軟體」──

it was called mainly "free software" back then --

實際上是他向我介紹這個概念，嘿，

and he actually introduced me to the notion that, hey,

你可以用現有的 開放原始碼授權條款。

you can use these open-source licenses that had been around.

我考慮了一陣子。

And I thought about it for a while.

我擔心的其實是 隨之而來的商業利益。

I was actually worried about the whole commercial interests coming in.

我是說，我想大多數 創業的人都會擔心這一點，

I mean, that's one of the worries I think most people who start out have,

就是他們擔心 有人會占他們便宜，對吧？

is that they worry about somebody taking advantage of their work, right?

後來我決定「管他去死！」

And I decided, "What the hell?"

所以──

And --

克：之後有一天，

CA: And then at some point,

有人貢獻了一些程式， 而你這麼想：

someone contributed some code that you thought,

「哇，這真的很有意思， 我從沒想過這點。

"Wow, that really is interesting, I would not have thought of that.

這應該可以改進這個。」

This could actually improve this."

林：這甚至不是 從有人貢獻程式開始，

LT: It didn't even start by people contributing code,

比較像是大家開始貢獻想法。

it was more that people started contributing ideas.

光是這個事實， 就是別人看了你的計劃──

And just the fact that somebody else takes a look at your project --

我確信別的事也一樣，

and I'm sure it's true of other things, too,

但這在寫程式 這件事上絕對是這樣──

but it's definitely true in code --

就是有人對你的程式有興趣，

is that somebody else takes an interest in your code,

還仔細研究到能真的給你意見，

looks at it enough to actually give you feedback

給你想法。

and give you ideas.

這對我是件大事。

That was a huge thing for me.

那時我 21 歲，是很年輕，

I was 21 at the time, so I was young,

但我基本上 已經寫了半輩子的程式。

but I had already programmed for half my life, basically.

在那之前每一件計劃 都是我個人的東西，

And every project before that had been completely personal

所以當大家開始評論，

and it was a revelation when people just started commenting,

開始對你的程式給意見時， 真的是一種啟示。

started giving feedback on your code.

甚至在他們開始回饋程式前，

And even before they started giving code back,

我想那是重要的一刻， 因為我說：

that was, I think, one of the big moments where I said,

「我愛別人！」

"I love other people!"

不要誤會，

Don't get me wrong --

我不是一個喜歡社交的人。

I'm actually not a people person.

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

我不是真的愛別人──

I don't really love other people --

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

但是我愛電腦，

But I love computers,

我愛與別人用電郵互動，

I love interacting with other people on email,

因為這好像給了你緩衝的空間。

because it kind of gives you that buffer.

但是我的確喜愛 會評論並參與計劃的人。

But I do love other people who comment and get involved in my project.

這使計劃豐富許多。

And it made it so much more.

克：有沒有哪個時刻， 你看到現有的專案

CA: So was there a moment when you saw what was being built

突然大受歡迎，

and it suddenly started taking off,

然後你想：「等一下， 這應該會變成更大的東西，

and you thought, "Wait a sec, this actually could be something huge,

不再只是個人的計劃， 可以得到一些很好的建議，

not just a personal project that I'm getting nice feedback on,

而是有點像整個科技界的 爆炸性進展？」

but a kind of explosive development in the whole technology world"?

林：其實沒有。

LT: Not really.

我說真的，對我而言重點 不是它變大的時候，

I mean, the big point for me, really, was not when it was becoming huge,

而是它變小的時候。

it was when it was becoming little.

對我而言重點是 不再單打獨鬥，

The big point for me was not being alone

而是有十人， 或許一百人參與，

and having 10, maybe 100 people being involved --

這是重點。

that was a big point.

然後其它的事都慢慢發生。

Then everything else was very gradual.

從一百人到一百萬人 沒什麼了不起，對我而言。

Going from 100 people to a million people is not a big deal -- to me.

我是說，可能很了不起， 如果你──

Well, I mean, maybe it is if you're --

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

如果你想賣你的結果 那當然很了不起──

If you want to sell your result then it's a huge deal --

不要誤會。

don't get me wrong.

但是如果你是對科技有興趣，

But if you're interested in the technology

你對這計劃本身有興趣，

and you're interested in the project,

那重點是建立一個社群。

the big part was getting the community.

然後這個社群慢慢成長。

Then the community grew gradually.

其實並沒有什麼 特別的時刻讓我覺得

And there's actually not a single point where I went like,

「哇，起飛了！」 因為它──

"Wow, that just took off!" because it --

我是說──這真的 花了相對而言很長的時間。

I mean -- it took a long time, relatively.

克：跟我聊過的科技人都歸功你，

CA: So all the technologists that I talk to really credit you

說你完全改變了他們的工作。

with massively changing their work.

而且不只是 Linux，

And it's not just Linux,

還有這個叫做 Git 的，

it's this thing called Git,

這是一套軟體開發的 （版本）管理系統。

which is this management system for software development.

跟我們簡單說明一下 你在其中的角色。

Tell us briefly about that and your role in that.

林：那時我們有一個問題，

LT: So one of the issues we had,

在做了一陣子之後才出現，

and this took a while to start to appear,

就是當你──

is when you ...

當你的計劃從十人或百人

When you grow from having 10 people or 100 people working on a project

成長到一萬人，這個──

to having 10,000 people, which --

就是說現在我們的情況是 僅僅在核心部分，

I mean, right now we're in the situation where just on the kernel,

每次釋出新版本都有上千人參與，

we have 1,000 people involved in every single release

而且每兩個月， 大約兩到三個月就釋出一次。

and that's every two months, roughly two or three months.

有些人做得不多。

Some of those people don't do a lot.

有很多人只做一點點修改。

There's a lot of people who make small, small changes.

但是要維護這個，

But to maintain this,

這樣的規模 會改變你維護的方法。

the scale changes how you have to maintain it.

我們經歷了很多痛苦。

And we went through a lot of pain.

有很多計劃只能做原始碼維護。

And there are whole projects that do only source-code maintenance.

CVS （協作版本系統） 過去是最常用的系統，

CVS is the one that used to be the most commonly used,

我恨死了 CVS， 堅決不肯使用它，

and I hated CVS with a passion and refused to touch it

我也試了其它激進有趣的東西，

and tried something else that was radical and interesting

但是其他人卻恨死了。

and everybody else hated.

克：（笑聲）

CA: (Laughs)

林：我們處在很糟的情況，

LT: And we were in this bad spot,

我們有數千人想要參與，

where we had thousands of people who wanted to participate,

但是從很多方面看， 我都是那個中斷點，

but in many ways, I was the kind of break point,

我無法放大自己的格局

where I could not scale to the point

到能與數千人一同工作。

where I could work with thousands of people.

所以 Git 是 我的第二個大型計畫，

So Git is my second big project,

是專門為我打造， 以維護我的第一個大型計畫，

which was only created for me to maintain my first big project.

這真的就是我工作的方式。

And this is literally how I work.

我寫程式不是為了──

I don't code for --

嗯，我的確會為了好玩寫程式──

well, I do code for fun --

但是我想寫有意義的程式，

but I want to code for something meaningful

所以我完成的每一項計畫 都是我需要的東西，

so every single project I've ever done has been something I needed

而且──

and --

克：所以真的， Linux 和 Git 兩者的出現

CA: So really, both Linux and Git kind of arose

幾乎都是你不想 與很多人一同工作

almost as an unintended consequence

而產生意料之外的結果。

of your desire not to have to work with too many people.

林：一點也沒錯！是的！

LT: Absolutely. Yes.

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

克：真了不起。 林：是的。

CA: That's amazing. LT: Yeah.

（掌聲）

(Applause)

然而，你是轉變科技的人，

And yet, you're the man who's transformed technology

不只一次，而是二次，

not just once but twice,

我們得試著瞭解為什麼會這樣。

and we have to try and understand why it is.

你給了我們一些線索，但是……

You've given us some clues, but ...

這張照片是你小時候， 在玩魔術方塊。

Here's a picture of you as a kid, with a Rubik's Cube.

你之前提到你大概從 10 或 11 歲就開始寫程式，

You mentioned that you've been programming since you were like 10 or 11,

半輩子。

half your life.

你是那種電腦天才， 你知道的，超級書呆子，

Were you this sort of computer genius, you know, übernerd,

學校裡什麼都能做的明星嗎？

were you the star at school who could do everything?

你小時候是什麼樣子？

What were you like as a kid?

林：對，我想我是那種 典型的書呆子。

LT: Yeah, I think I was the prototypical nerd.

我是說，我是……

I mean, I was ...

那時候我就不是愛社交的人。

I was not a people person back then.

那是我的弟弟。

That's my younger brother.

很明顯我對魔術方塊比較有興趣，

I was clearly more interested in the Rubik's Cube

不太理我弟弟。

than my younger brother.

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

我的妹妹，沒有在照片上，

My younger sister, who's not in the picture,

每次我們大家庭聚在一起──

when we had family meetings --

不是很大的家庭， 但是我有幾個堂兄弟姊妹──

and it's not a huge family, but I have, like, a couple of cousins --

她都會先幫我預習一下。

she would prep me beforehand.

像在我踏進房門之前她會說：

Like, before I stepped into the room she would say,

「看好，這是誰和誰……」

"OK. That's so-and-so ..."

因為我不──

Because I was not --

我很宅。

I was a geek.

我非常投入電腦，

I was into computers,

我非常投入數學，

I was into math,

我非常投入物理。

I was into physics.

我那項很強。

I was good at that.

我從不認為自己很超凡。

I don't think I was particularly exceptional.

很明顯，我的妹妹總是說

Apparently, my sister said

我最超凡的特質就是我從不放手。

that my biggest exceptional quality was that I would not let go.

克：好，就來談這個， 因為這很有意思。

CA: OK, so let's go there, because that's interesting.

你不放手。

You would not let go.

所以這跟宅或聰明沒關，

So that's not about being a geek and being smart,

這是因為你很……固執？

that's about being ... stubborn?

林：的確是因為我很固執。

LT: That's about being stubborn.

那就像，

That's about, like,

你才開始了什麼，

just starting something

你不會說： 「好！不玩了！來做別的吧……

and not saying, "OK, I'm done, let's do something else --

看！那個好亮！」

Look: shiny!"

我注意到我在生活其它方面上 也看得到這個特質。

And I notice that in many other parts in my life, too.

我在矽谷住了七年。

I lived in Silicon Valley for seven years.

我都待在同一家公司，在矽谷！

And I worked for the same company, in Silicon Valley,

整段時間。

for the whole time.

這簡直是前所未聞。

That is unheard of.

矽谷不是這樣的。

That's not how Silicon Valley works.

矽谷的重點就是 大家在不同的公司跳來跳去，

The whole point of Silicon Valley is that people jump between jobs

好像大熔爐一樣。

to kind of mix up the pot.

但我不是那種人。

And that's not the kind of person I am.

克：但是在 Linux 本身 實際開發期間，

CA: But during the actual development of Linux itself,

那種固執的態度 有時候會帶來人際間的衝突。