that was both fascinating and quite inspiring.

剛剛的演講真是引人入勝又發人省思

So, you're calling for a global ethic.

所以，您要倡導全球倫理

Would you describe that as global citizenship?

您會覺得它就是全球公民責任嗎？

Is that an idea that you believe in, and how would you define that?

這是您深信的概念嗎？您要如何定義它呢？

Gordon Brown: It is about global citizenship

布朗：我認爲這就是全球公民的責任。

and recognizing our responsibilities to others.

就是去認清楚我們對他人的責任。

There is so much to do over the next few years

接下來幾年有很多事要做

that is obvious to so many of us

我們都清楚非得要做點甚麼

to build a better world.

來讓世界變得更好。

And there is so much shared sense of what we need to do,

對於我們該做些什麽

that it is vital that we all come together.

大家也都很有共識

But we don't necessarily have the means to do so.

而合作是非常重要的。

So there are challenges to be met.

但是我們不見得有方法可以做到

I believe the concept of global citizenship

所以接下來有很多的挑戰。

will simply grow out of people talking to each other across continents.

我認爲全球公民責任的概念

But of course the task is to create the institutions

會隨著洲際間的對話自然產生。

that make that global society work.

當然，主要任務是設置

But I don't think we should underestimate

有效的全球社會的組織

the extent to which massive changes in technology

我也認爲我們不該低估

make possible the linking up of people across the world.

科技所帶來的重大改變

CA: But people get excited about this idea of global citizenship,

這使得串連全球的人變得可能。

but then they get confused a bit again

安德森：人們對全球公民的概念很有興趣

when they start thinking about patriotism,

但同時也會有疑惑

and how to combine these two.

當他們想到愛國主義

I mean, you're elected as Prime Minister

並且還要融合這兩個想法。

with a brief to bat for Britain.

人們選您當英國首相

How do you reconcile the two things?

您有捍衛英國的責任

GB: Well, of course national identity remains important.

您要如何去協調這兩種想法呢？

But it's not at the expense of people accepting their global responsibilities.

布朗：當然，國家認同是重要的。

And I think one of the problems of recession

但不能因此把全球責任棄之不顧

is that people become more protectionist,

經濟衰退帶來的問題之一

they look in on themselves,

是保護主義的興起

they try to protect their own nation,

人們只看到自己

perhaps at the expense of other nations.

只會保護自己國家的利益

When you actually look at the motor of the world economy,

並不惜犧牲他國的利益。

it cannot move forward

實際去看看世界經濟的動態

unless there is trade between the different countries.

少了國與國之間的貿易

And any nation that would become protectionist over the next few years

它是無法往前進的。

would deprive itself of the chance of getting the benefits

再過幾年，任一保護主義國家

of growth in the world economy.

自己也將被摒除在外

So, you've got to have a healthy sense of patriotism;

無法分享世界經濟發展的利益。

that's absolutely important.

所以，有健康的愛國主義

But you've got to realize that this world has changed fundamentally,

絕對是重要的

and the problems we have cannot be solved by one nation and one nation alone.

但你也要了解這世界已經根本的改變

CA: Well, indeed.

我們現有的問題

But what do you do when the two come into conflict

不是單一國家就可以解決

and you're forced to make a decision

安德森：的確，但是當這兩個概念有所衝突

that either is in Britain's interest, or the interest of Britons,

而您必需有所抉擇時，您該怎麽做呢？

or citizens elsewhere in the world?

是保護英國的利益

GB: Well I think we can persuade people

或者說是英國人的利益

that what is necessary for Britain's long-term interests,

還是全球其他國民的利益？

what is necessary for America's long-term interests,

布朗：我想我們可以説服國民

is proper engagement with the rest of the world,

為了英國長遠的利益

and taking the action that is necessary.

也爲了美國長遠的利益

There is a great story, again, told about Richard Nixon.

去適當地與全球其他地區的互動

1958, Ghana becomes independent,

並採取必要的行動。

so it is just over 50 years ago.

有一個關於尼克森的故事

Richard Nixon goes to represent the United States government

1958年，加納獨立了

at the celebrations for independence in Ghana.

恰好才剛過五十年

And it's one of his first outings as Vice President to an African country.

尼克森副總統代表美國出席

He doesn't quite know what to do,

加納的獨立慶祝活動

so he starts going around the crowd

這是他首次以副總統的身份去非洲國家訪問

and starts talking to people

因為不確定該怎麽做，於是他走進人群

and he says to people in this rather unique way,

並和人寒暄

"How does it feel to be free?"

他用一個獨特的開場白

And he's going around, "How does it feel to be free?"

”自由的感覺怎麽樣？“

"How does it feel to be free?"

邊走邊問”自由的感覺怎麽樣？“

And then someone says,

”自由的感覺怎麽樣？“

"How should I know? I come from Alabama."

結果有個人回答 “我哪知道？我是從阿拉巴馬來的”

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And that was the 1950s.

那是五零年代的事了

Now, what is remarkable

值得注意的是

is that civil rights in America were achieved in the 1960s.

美國的民權已在六零年代普及

But what is equally remarkable

不能忽視的是

is socioeconomic rights in Africa have not moved forward very fast

非洲的社會經濟權

even since the age of colonialism.

在結束殖民時代後

And yet, America and Africa have got a common interest.

卻沒有向前快速發展。

And we have got to realize that if we don't link up

然而，美國和非洲

with those people who are sensible voices and democratic voices in Africa,

一直是禍福相依

to work together for common causes,

我們必須知道，如果我們不串起

then the danger of Al Qaeda and related groups

非洲人理性和追求民主的聲音

making progress in Africa is very big.

來一起奮鬥

So, I would say that what seems sometimes

那麽基地組織一類的團體

to be altruism, in relation to Africa, or in relation to developing countries,

在非洲擴張的機會是很大的。

is more than that.

所以我說，我們對非洲

It is enlightened self-interest for us to work with other countries.

或其他發展中國家的作爲

And I would say that national interest

有時候像是利他主義

and, if you like, what is the global interest

其實更多是從自我利益出發

to tackle poverty and climate change

而去跟其他國家合作。

do, in the long run, come together.

我並認爲，國家的利益

And whatever the short-run price for taking action on climate change

跟全球的利益

or on security, or taking action to provide opportunities

如：對付貧窮和氣候變遷

for people for education,

在長期來看，是一致的。

these are prices that are worth paying

在短期間，為應付氣候變遷

so that you build a stronger global society

為安全問題採取行動，或為其他人

where people feel able to feel comfortable with each other

提供教育的機會

and are able to communicate with each other in such a way

這些付出都是值得的

that you can actually build stronger links between different countries.

你將建立一個更健全的全球社會

CA: I still just want to draw out on this issue.

人們可以互相和平共處

So, you're on vacation at a nice beach,

也可以互相溝通

and word comes through that there's been a massive earthquake

各國間的關係也更穩固。

and that there is a tsunami advancing on the beach.

安德森：這裡是牛津，

One end of the beach, there is a house containing a family of five Nigerians.

哲學思想的實驗地。

And at the other end of the beach there is a single Brit.

這裡有一個這樣的例子

You have time to --

我想更深入了解這個議題

(Laughter)

假設您在海灘上度假

you have time to alert one house.

發生了一個大地震

What do you do?

大海嘯接著向海灘襲來

(Laughter)

海灘的一端有一個房子

GB: Modern communications.

住著一家五口的奈及利亞人。

(Applause)

在海灘的另一端

Alert both.

只住一個英國人。

(Applause)

您的時間

I do agree that my responsibility

（笑聲）

is first of all to make sure that people in our country are safe.

只夠通知一戶人家。您會怎麽做？

And I wouldn't like anything that is said today to suggest

（笑聲）

that I am diminishing the importance of the responsibility

布朗：現代的通訊

that each leader has for their own country.

（掌聲）

But I'm trying to suggest that there is a huge opportunity

兩家都通知

open to us that was never open to us before.

（掌聲）

But the power to communicate across borders

我同意我的首要責任

allows us to organize the world in a different way.

是保障我們國民的安全

And I think, look at the tsunami, it's a classic example.

我今天所說的也絕不是企圖

Where was the early warning systems?

削弱各個領導人對他們國家

Where was the world acting together

負起責任的重要性。

to deal with the problems that they knew arose

我們現在有一個大好機會

from the potential for earthquakes,

眼前是全新的局面。

as well as the potential for climate change?

而跨國界溝通的能力

And when the world starts to work together,

讓我們能用新方法來動員這世界。

with better early-warning systems,

東亞的大海嘯，是標準的例子

you can deal with some of these problems in a better way.

那時候有早期預警系統嗎？

I just think we're not seeing, at the moment,

世界各國一起合作

the huge opportunities open to us by the ability of people to cooperate

來應付地震或者是

in a world where either there was isolationism before

氣候變遷可能引起的後果

or there was limited alliances based on convenience

以前有這樣的合作嗎？

which never actually took you to deal with some of the central problems.

當世界各國開始合作

CA: But I think this is the frustration

來準備早期預警系統

that perhaps a lot of people have, like people in the audience here,

這些問題將可以處理得更好。

where we love the kind of language that you're talking about.

只是我們還沒看清

It is inspiring.

擺在我們眼前的大好機會

A lot of us believe that that has to be the world's future.

那就是：藉由人們的合作

And yet, when the situation changes,

才能真的處理到問題的核心

you suddenly hear politicians talking as if,

而這是以前孤立主義

you know, for example, the life of one American soldier

或有限結盟的組織所辦不到的。

is worth countless numbers of Iraqi civilians.

安德森：但我覺得這是很多人

When the pedal hits the metal,

包括在場聽衆都有的挫折感

the idealism can get moved away.

這也是為什麼您的話這麼地鼓舞人心

I'm just wondering whether you can see that changing over time,

大部分的人也都相信

whether you see in Britain

世界的未來就該是這樣。

that there are changing attitudes,

但是，一旦情況改變

and that people are actually more supportive

政治人物又會說另一套

of the kind of global ethic that you talk about.

例如說，好像無數伊拉克百姓的命

GB: I think every religion, every faith,

比一個美國大兵的命還不值。

and I'm not just talking here to people of faith or religion --

一旦踢到鐵板

it has this global ethic at the center of its credo.

理想主義會很快消逝

And whether it's Jewish or whether it's Muslim

我想知道，

or whether it's Hindu, or whether it's Sikh,

您覺得到現在

the same global ethic is at the heart of each of these religions.

或是在英國裏

So, I think you're dealing with something

有看到人們態度的轉變嗎？

that people instinctively see as part of their moral sense.

是否有更多人支持您說的全球倫理？

So you're building on something that is not pure self-interest.

布朗：我認爲所有的宗教，信念

You're building on people's ideas and values --

不只針對有信教的人

that perhaps they're candles that burn very dimly on certain occasions.

其中心信念

But it is a set of values that cannot, in my view, be extinguished.

都有這全球倫理。

Then the question is,

無論是猶太教，回教

how do you make that change happen?

印度教，或錫克教

How do you persuade people that it is in their interest

全球倫理都是

to build strong --

在這些宗教的中心。

After the Second World War,

所以我們談的概念

we built institutions, the United Nations,

本來就是

the IMF, the World Bank,

人們道德感的一部分。

the World Trade Organization, the Marshall Plan.

所以你經營的基礎不是自利

There was a period in which people talked about an act of creation,

是人們的理想和價值觀

because these institutions were so new.

而這就像是在角落

But they are now out of date. They don't deal with the problems.

微微發光的蠟燭

You can't deal with the environmental problem

但這些信念是永遠不會熄滅的。

through existing institutions.

接下來的問題是

You can't deal with the security problem in the way that you need to.

你如何使這個改變發生？

You can't deal with the economic and financial problem.

你如何說服人們

So we have got to rebuild our global institutions,

這是為了他們自身的利益

build them in a way that is suitable to the challenges of this time.

來建立...二次世界大戰後

And I believe that if you look at the biggest challenge we face,

成立了一些國際組織，如聯合國

it is to persuade people to have the confidence

國際貨幣組織，世界銀行

that we can build a truly global society

國際貿易組織，馬歇爾計劃

with the institutions that are founded on these rules.

那時大家還會期待新的作為

So, I come back to my initial point.

因爲這些組織還很新。

Sometimes you think things are impossible.

但現在他們已經過時了。無法應付問題

Nobody would have said 50 years ago

如我所說的，現存的組織

that apartheid would have gone in 1990,

已無法應付環境的問題。

or that the Berlin wall would have fallen at the turn of the '80s and '90s,

安全的問題也無法應付

or that polio could be eradicated,

也無法應付經濟和財政的問題。

or perhaps 60 years ago,

所以我們必須重建全球的組織，

nobody would have said a man could gone to the Moon.

使他們能面對現在的挑戰

All these things have happened.

看看我們現在最大的挑戰

By tackling the impossible, you make the impossible possible.

其實是使人們去相信

CA: And we have had a speaker who said that very thing,

以這些信念建立的組織

and swallowed a sword right after that, which was quite dramatic.

會產生一個真正的全球社會。

(Laughter)

所以，回到我的出發點

GB: Followed my sword and swallow.

總有人說這是辦不到的

CA: But, surely a true global ethic is for someone to say,

50年以前，沒有人會相信

"I believe that the life of every human on the planet

南非的隔離主義會在1990年結束

is worth the same, equal consideration,

或是柏林圍牆

regardless of nationality and religion."

會在八零年代末倒下

And you have politicians who have --

小兒麻痹可以根絕。或是六十年前

you're elected.

沒有人會說人類可以飛上月球

In a way, you can't say that.

但這些事都發生了。

Even if, as a human being, you believe that,

只要開始面對不可能的事，不可能也會變可能。

you can't say that.

安德森：我們之前有個演講者也這麽說

You're elected for Britain's interests.

說完了還表演吞劍。十分有戲劇性。

GB: We have a responsibility to protect.

（笑聲）

I mean look, 1918, the Treaty of Versailles,

接下來該我吞劍了

and all the treaties before that,

安德森：然而，真正的全球倫理

the Treaty of Westphalia and everything else,

是人們可以說

were about protecting the sovereign right of countries

“我相信這世上的每個人

to do what they want.

不論他的國籍和宗教

Since then, the world has moved forward,

都有同樣的價值，得到同等的對待“

partly as a result of what happened with the Holocaust,

身為政治人物，您是由選民選出的

and people's concern about the rights of individuals

某種意義上，您不能這麽說

within territories where they need protection,

即使，身爲人類，您認同這句話

partly because of what we saw in Rwanda,

您還是不能這麽說。人們選您是爲了保衛英國的利益。

partly because of what we saw in Bosnia.

布朗：我們有責任去保護

The idea of the responsibility to protect

看，1918年的凡爾賽條約

all individuals who are in situations where they are at humanitarian risk

和之前所有的條約，威斯特伐利亞條約等

is now being established as a principle which governs the world.

都只是為了保全單一國家主權

So, while I can't automatically say

使他們爲所欲爲。

that Britain will rush to the aid of any citizen of any country, in danger,

在那以後，世界進步了

I can say that Britain is in a position

部分是因爲發生了猶太人大屠殺

where we're working with other countries

人們開始關心他國領土上

so that this idea that you have a responsibility

未受保障的人的權益，