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Let's talk about billions.
譯者: Joyce Chou 審譯者: Ariel Hsu
Let's talk about
我們來談談「億」吧
past and future billions.
我們來談談
We know
過去和未來的「億」
that about 106 billion people
眾所皆知
have ever lived.
在地球上生活過的人
And we know that most of them are dead.
有一千零六十億
And we also know
當然大多數人已經不在人世了
that most of them live or lived in Asia.
我們還知道
And we also know
他們大多數人生活在或曾經生活在亞洲
that most of them were or are very poor --
我們還知道
did not live for very long.
他們大多數人非常貧窮
Let's talk about billions.
壽命不長
Let's talk about
我們來談談「億」
the 195,000 billion dollars of wealth
我們來談談
in the world today.
現今世界
We know that most of that wealth
高達195萬億美金的財富
was made after the year 1800.
這些財富大部分
And we know that most of it
是從1800年開始創造出來的
is currently owned
而現在這些財富的
by people we might call Westerners:
主要擁有者
Europeans, North Americans, Australasians.
都是西方人
19 percent of the world's population today,
歐洲人、北美人和澳洲人
Westerners own two-thirds of its wealth.
只佔了世界人口百分之十九的西方人
Economic historians
卻擁有了全球三分之二的財富
call this "The Great Divergence."
經濟歷史學家
And this slide here
稱之為「大分流」
is the best simplification
這張投影片
of the Great Divergence story
最能讓我
I can offer you.
簡單說明
It's basically two ratios
「大分流」的故事
of per capita GDP,
上面是兩個
per capita gross domestic product,
平均每人的GDP比率
so average income.
也就是每人平均國內生產總值
One, the red line,
平均收入
is the ratio of British to Indian
紅線的部分
per capita income.
是代表英國人和印度人
And the blue line
每人平均收入的比
is the ratio of American to Chinese.
藍線則是
And this chart goes back to 1500.
美國人和中國人的平均收入比
And you can see here
這幅圖追溯到1500年
that there's an exponential Great Divergence.
大家可以看到
They start off pretty close together.
大分流的走勢
In fact, in 1500,
這兩條曲線起初相當接近
the average Chinese was richer than the average North American.
事實上在1500年
When you get to the 1970s,
中國人普遍比美國人富有
which is where this chart ends,
但到了1970年代
the average Briton is more than 10 times richer
也就是這幅圖中時間的終點
than the average Indian.
英國人平均比印度人
And that's allowing
富有十倍
for differences in the cost of living.
這就產生了
It's based on purchasing power parity.
生活消費的差異
The average American
這是建立在購買力對等基礎上
is nearly 20 times richer
到了1970年代
than the average Chinese
美國人平均
by the 1970s.
比中國人
So why?
富有二十倍
This wasn't just an economic story.
這是為什麼
If you take the 10 countries
這並不僅僅只是一個經濟問題
that went on to become
看看這十個
the Western empires,
後來成為
in 1500 they were really quite tiny --
帝國的西方國家
five percent of the world's land surface,
在1500年時,這些國家都很小
16 percent of its population,
僅占全球土地面積的百分之五
maybe 20 percent of its income.
人口僅佔世界人口的百分之十六
By 1913,
而收入在全球僅占百分之二十
these 10 countries, plus the United States,
到了1913年
controlled vast global empires --
包括美國在內的這十個國家
58 percent of the world's territory,
控制了全球大片土地
about the same percentage of its population,
佔據了全球百分之五十八的勢力範圍
and a really huge, nearly three-quarters share
而人口也佔了世界人口的百分之五十八左右
of global economic output.
創造了全球
And notice, most of that went to the motherland,
近四分之三的財富
to the imperial metropoles,
請注意,大部分的財富都流入了這些國家
not to their colonial possessions.
流入了帝國大都市裡
Now you can't just blame this on imperialism --
而不是殖民地
though many people have tried to do so --
我們不能只是怪罪帝國主義
for two reasons.
儘管很多人這麼做
One, empire was the least original thing
有兩項原因
that the West did after 1500.
第一、1500年以後
Everybody did empire.
西方國家都是帝國
They beat preexisting Oriental empires
大家都建立帝國
like the Mughals and the Ottomans.
之前建立的東方帝國被打敗了
So it really doesn't look like empire is a great explanation
例如莫臥兒帝國和奧斯曼帝國
for the Great Divergence.
所以帝國並不見得
In any case, as you may remember,
足以解釋大分流的現象
the Great Divergence reaches its zenith in the 1970s,
不知道各位是否記得
some considerable time after decolonization.
到了1970年代
This is not a new question.
大分流在非殖民時期後一段相當長的時間達到高峰
Samuel Johnson,
這不是一個新問題了
the great lexicographer,
著名辭典編篡家
[posed] it through his character Rasselas
Samuel Johnson
in his novel "Rasselas, Prince of Abissinia,"
透過他1759年所寫的小說
published in 1759.
《阿比西尼亞國拉塞拉斯王子傳》中的人物拉塞拉斯
"By what means are the Europeans thus powerful;
提出了這個問題
or why, since they can so easily visit Asia and Africa
「歐洲人為何如此強大?
for trade or conquest,
他們為何能輕而易舉地來到亞洲和非洲
cannot the Asiaticks and Africans
進行貿易或征服
invade their coasts,
而亞洲人和非洲人
plant colonies in their ports,
為何無力攻占他們的海岸
and give laws to their natural princes?
將他們的港口化為殖民地
The same wind that carries them back
並控制他們的王子呢?
would bring us thither?"
既然是同一股風,為何他只將他們送回家
That's a great question.
卻將我們送去他們那裡?」
And you know what,
這個問題問得很好
it was also being asked at roughly the same time
無獨有偶
by the Resterners -- by the people in the rest of the world --
幾乎在同一時期
like Ibrahim Muteferrika,
西方國家之外的人
an Ottoman official,
其中有
the man who introduced printing, very belatedly,
一位奧斯曼帝國的大官
to the Ottoman Empire --
也是後來將印刷術
who said in a book published in 1731,
引入奧斯曼帝國的人
"Why do Christian nations which were so weak in the past
在他1731年出版的一本書裡
compared with Muslim nations
他說:「與穆斯林國家相比,
begin to dominate so many lands in modern times
基督教國家原先顯得弱不禁風,
and even defeat the once victorious Ottoman armies?"
但他們何以在現代統治了大片土地,
Unlike Rasselas,
甚至戰勝了曾經盛極一時的奧斯曼帝國?」
Muteferrika had an answer to that question,
和拉塞拉斯不同
which was correct.
Muteferrika對問題做了回答
He said it was "because they have laws and rules
答案還是正確的
invented by reason."
他說;「因為他們制定了
It's not geography.
合理的法律規章。」
You may think we can explain the Great Divergence
這和地理環境無關
in terms of geography.
各位可能認為我們能從地理的角度
We know that's wrong,
解釋大分流
because we conducted two great natural experiments in the 20th century
這個想法是錯誤的
to see if geography mattered more than institutions.
我們在二十世紀進行了兩次自然實驗
We took all the Germans,
來證明地理和制度就近哪個作用較大
we divided them roughly in two,
我們把德國
and we gave the ones in the East communism,
分成了兩部份
and you see the result.
在東德推行共產主義
Within an incredibly short period of time,
結果大家都看到了
people living in the German Democratic Republic
在極短的時間裡
produced Trabants, the Trabbi,
東德人
one of the world's worst ever cars,
生產了特拉邦(Trabant)汽車
while people in the West produced the Mercedes Benz.
是世界上性能最差的車款之一
If you still don't believe me,
而西德人卻生產出了朋馳
we conducted the experiment also in the Korean Peninsula.
這如果還不足以回答問題
And we decided we'd take Koreans
我們又在朝鮮半島進行了實驗
in roughly the same geographical place
我們決定
with, notice, the same basic traditional culture,
將生活在同一地理位置
and we divided them in two, and we gave the Northerners communism.
擁有共同文化習俗的朝鮮人
And the result is an even bigger divergence
分成兩邊,並在北朝鮮實行共產主義
in a very short space of time
結果朝鮮半島兩方
than happened in Germany.
在更短的時間內
Not a big divergence in terms of uniform design for border guards admittedly,
出現了大分流,比德國的情況更甚
but in almost every other respect,
我承認,他們邊防軍制服的款式差別不大
it's a huge divergence.
但在其他方面
Which leads me to think
雙方存在極大的差異
that neither geography nor national character,
這讓我不得不認為
popular explanations for this kind of thing,
地理、國家特徵
are really significant.
以及其他主流的解釋
It's the ideas.
都站不住腳
It's the institutions.
真正發揮作用的是思想
This must be true
是制度
because a Scotsman said it.
這應該是千真萬確的
And I think I'm the only Scotsman here at the Edinburgh TED.
這可是一位蘇格蘭人說的
So let me just explain to you
我想我是這裡唯一的蘇格蘭人
that the smartest man ever was a Scotsman.
我來解釋一下
He was Adam Smith --
世界上最聰明的人是一位蘇格蘭人
not Billy Connolly, not Sean Connery --
他就是亞當‧斯密
though he is very smart indeed.
不是比利‧康諾利或是史恩‧康納萊
(Laughter)
雖然他也很聰明
Smith -- and I want you to go
(笑聲)
and bow down before his statue in the Royal Mile;
亞當‧斯密,你們都應該
it's a wonderful statue --
到他在皇家麥爾大道的雕像前一鞠躬
Smith, in the "Wealth of Nations"
這座雕像非常雄偉
published in 1776 --
亞當‧斯密在1776年發表了
that's the most important thing that happened that year ...
《國富論》
(Laughter)
這可是當年最了不起的事情
You bet.
(笑聲)
There was a little local difficulty in some of our minor colonies, but ...
難道不是嗎?
(Laughter)
雖然當時我們一些次要的殖民地出了點問題,但...
"China seems to have been long stationary,
(笑聲)
and probably long ago acquired that full complement of riches
他說:「中國似乎已經停滯很久了,
which is consistent with the nature of its laws and institutions.
也許在很久以前,中國創造財富的能力已經發揮到了極致,
But this complement may be much inferior
而這取決於該國法律和制度的性質。
to what, with other laws and institutions,
但如果中國採用其他型式的法律和制度
the nature of its soil, climate, and situation
那麼這一能力
might admit of."
反而無法在同樣的土壤,氣候和條件下
That is so right and so cool.
得到完全發揮。」
And he said it such a long time ago.
這說得非常有道理
But you know, this is a TED audience,
在那麼久以前,他就說出了這番話
and if I keep talking about institutions,
但是,各位是TED的觀眾
you're going to turn off.
如果我繼續談論制度
So I'm going to translate this into language that you can understand.
你們可能就聽不下去了
Let's call them the killer apps.
所以我得用通俗的白話告訴各位
I want to explain to you that there were six killer apps
我們就把這些制度稱做「殺手級」應用程式吧
that set the West apart from the rest.
我會逐一介紹六種「殺手級」應用程式
And they're kind of like the apps on your phone,
解釋他們如何讓西方國家脫穎而出
in the sense that they look quite simple.
它們就像你手機上的應用程式
They're just icons; you click on them.
因為它們都很容易上手
But behind the icon, there's complex code.
它們就像一個個圖標,手指一點就行了
It's the same with institutions.
然而在圖標背後,則是複雜的程序
There are six
制度也是如此
which I think explain the Great Divergence.
我認為,這六個「殺手級」應用程式
One, competition.
能夠解釋大分流形成的原因
Two, the scientific revolution.
第一:競爭
Three, property rights.
第二:科技革命
Four, modern medicine.
第三:產權
Five, the consumer society.
第四:現代醫藥
And six, the work ethic.
第五:消費者導向社會
You can play a game and try and think of one I've missed at,
第六:職業道德
or try and boil it down to just four,
各位可以玩這個遊戲,看看我有沒有遺漏什麼
but you'll lose.
或者試試看能否直接刪除其中兩個
(Laughter)
但是你輸定了
Let me very briefly tell you what I mean by this,
(笑聲)
synthesizing the work of many economic historians
透過綜合經濟歷史學家的觀點
in the process.
我來簡短解釋一下
Competition means,
我的意思是
not only were there a hundred different political units in Europe in 1500,
競爭代表
but within each of these units,
1500年時歐洲不僅擁有一百多個政治單位
there was competition between corporations as well as sovereigns.
而在這些單位中
The ancestor of the modern corporation, the City of London Corporation,
既有組織間的競爭,又有主權國家之間的競爭
existed in the 12th century.
現代機構的始祖,倫敦市法團
Nothing like this existed in China,
12世紀時便存在了
where there was one monolithic state
中國沒有這樣的制度
covering a fifth of humanity,
中國的人口占世界總人口的五分之一
and anyone with any ambition
國家實施中央集權制度
had to pass one standardized examination,
胸懷大志的人
which took three days and was very difficult
必須通過統一的科舉考試
and involved memorizing vast numbers of characters
一考就是三天,考試難度很大
and very complex Confucian essay writing.
要求記憶大量漢字
The scientific revolution was different
還要寫繁複的儒家文章
from the science that had been achieved in the Oriental world
科技革命和東方的科學成就
in a number of crucial ways,
在很多重要方面
the most important being
都有不同
that, through the experimental method,
其中最大的不同在於
it gave men control over nature in a way that had not been possible before.
科技革命通過實驗性方法
Example: Benjamin Robins's extraordinary application
讓人們用前所未見的方式掌控自然
of Newtonian physics to ballistics.
Benjamin Robins將牛頓物理學運用到彈道研究
Once you do that,
就是個很好的例子
your artillery becomes accurate.
這麼做
Think of what that means.
能夠保證砲彈發射的精準度
That really was a killer application.
這意味著
(Laughter)
這個應用程式果然厲害
Meanwhile, there's no scientific revolution anywhere else.
(笑聲)
The Ottoman Empire's not that far from Europe,
同時科技革命只發生在西方
but there's no scientific revolution there.
奧斯曼帝過離歐洲不遠
In fact, they demolish Taqi al-Din's observatory,
但沒有發生科技革命
because it's considered blasphemous
事實上,該國政府拆毀了科學家Taqi al-Din的天文觀測台
to inquire into the mind of God.
認為該觀測台窺視上帝
Property rights: It's not the democracy, folks;
褻瀆聖靈
it's having the rule of law based on private property rights.
各位,產權不是民主
That's what makes the difference
透過法律管理私有財產權
between North America and South America.
北美洲和南美洲
You could turn up in North America
為何如此不同
having signed a deed of indenture
你到北美洲去
saying, "I'll work for nothing for five years.
簽一項契約
You just have to feed me."
說:「我願意無償工作五年。
But at the end of it, you've got a hundred acres of land.
你只要讓我有飯吃就行。」
That's the land grant
而五年後,你得到了一百公頃的土地
on the bottom half of the slide.
這張幻燈片下面的就是
That's not possible in Latin America
土地贈與書
where land is held onto
但在拉丁美洲,這是不可能的
by a tiny elite descended from the conquistadors.
這裡的土地
And you can see here the huge divergence
都掌握在極少數西班牙征服者的後裔手上
that happens in property ownership between North and South.
你們看,南北美洲
Most people in rural North America
由於產權不同而出現了大分流
owned some land by 1900.
到1900年為止
Hardly anyone in South America did.
北美洲的大部份人都擁有了土地
That's another killer app.
而在南美洲,擁有土地的人寥寥無幾
Modern medicine in the late 19th century
這是另一個「殺手級」應用程式
began to make major breakthroughs
十九世紀末,現代醫藥
against the infectious diseases that killed a lot of people.
在治療致命傳染病方面
And this was another killer app --
有了重大的突破
the very opposite of a killer,
這也是一個「殺手級」應用程式
because it doubled, and then more than doubled, human life expectancy.
但這個程式並不致命
It even did that
反而將人類的壽命延長了一倍又一倍
in the European empires.
現代醫藥
Even in places like Senegal,
在歐洲帝國的殖民地上,也發揮了作用
beginning in the early 20th century,
即使是在塞內加爾
there were major breakthroughs in public health,
公共衛生也在二十世紀早期
and life expectancy began to rise.
得到重大突破
It doesn't rise any faster
延長了人類的壽命
after these countries become independent.
而這些國家獨立之後
The empires weren't all bad.
人們的壽命並沒有繼續增加
The consumer society is what you need
所以說帝國也不見得都是不好的
for the Industrial Revolution to have a point.
工業革命在一個消費者導向社會進行
You need people to want to wear tons of clothes.
才有實際意義
You've all bought an article of clothing in the last month;
你需要大量需要購買衣服的人
I guarantee it.
你們上個月肯定都買過衣服
That's the consumer society,
我敢保證
and it propels economic growth
正是消費者導向社會
more than even technological change itself.
推動了經濟成長
Japan was the first non-Western society
這股力量超過了技術革新本身
to embrace it.
日本是第一個非西方國家
The alternative,
以消費為導向的社會
which was proposed by Mahatma Gandhi,
而另一條路
was to institutionalize and make poverty permanent.
就是穆罕默德‧甘地提出的
Very few Indians today
將貧困制度化,永久化
wish that India had gone down
今天的印度
Mahatma Gandhi's road.
大家都慶幸
Finally, the work ethic.
他們沒有選擇甘地的這條路
Max Weber thought that was peculiarly Protestant.
最後職業道德
He was wrong.
馬克斯‧韋伯認為這完全是新教的作風
Any culture can get the work ethic
他錯了
if the institutions are there
只要有創造
to create the incentive to work.
勞動激勵機制的制度
We know this
任何文化都有自身的職業道德
because today the work ethic
我們都清楚
is no longer a Protestant, Western phenomenon.
今天的職業道德
In fact, the West has lost its work ethic.
不再是新教或西方社會的專利
Today, the average Korean
事實上西方的職業道德已經淪喪
works a thousand hours more a year
今天一位韓國人
than the average German --
每年平均比一個德國人
a thousand.
多工作一千個小時
And this is part
一千個小時阿
of a really extraordinary phenomenon,
這一方面
and that is the end of the Great Divergence.
反應了一個驚人的現象
Who's got the work ethic now?
那就是大分流的終結
Take a look at mathematical attainment
現在誰擁有職業道德
by 15 year-olds.
我們看看十五歲的學生的
At the top of the international league table
數學成績
according to the latest PISA study,
根據國際學生評估項目(PISA)的最近調查
is the Shanghai district of China.
中國上海的學生
The gap between Shanghai
成績高居榜首
and the United Kingdom and the United States
英國和美國
is as big as the gap between the U.K. and the U.S.
與上海之間的差距
and Albania and Tunisia.
等同於阿爾巴尼亞和突尼西亞
You probably assume
和英美兩國的差距
that because the iPhone was designed in California
你們可能認為
but assembled in China
iPhone手機是在加州設計
that the West still leads in terms of technological innovation.
而在中國配裝
You're wrong.
所以西方在技術創新上還是處於領先地位
In terms of patents,
大錯特錯
there's no question that the East is ahead.
在專利方面
Not only has Japan been ahead for some time,
東方毫無疑問是處於領先的
South Korea has gone into third place,
不僅日本處於領先有一段時間
and China is just about to overtake Germany.
韓國已衝到了第三位
Why?
而中國眼看就要超越德國
Because the killer apps can be downloaded.
怎麼會這樣
It's open source.
這是因為人人都能下載「殺手級」應用程式
Any society can adopt these institutions,
是共享資源
and when they do,
各個社會都能採用這些制度
they achieve what the West achieved after 1500 --
一旦他們這麼做了
only faster.
他們就能實現西方1500年之後的成就
This is the Great Reconvergence,
但他們的速度更快
and it's the biggest story of your lifetime.
這是新一輪的大分流
Because it's on your watch that this is happening.
是你一生中最重大的事件
It's our generation
因為你正親眼目睹這些正在發生的事
that is witnessing the end of Western predominance.
我們這一代人
The average American used to be more than 20 times richer
眼看著西方主導地位的終結
than the average Chinese.
美國人曾經比中國人
Now it's just five times,
平均要富有二十倍
and soon it will be 2.5 times.
而今降至五倍
So I want to end with three questions
很快又會降到2.5倍
for the future billions,
我想透過三個問題
just ahead of 2016,
來總結
when the United States will lose its place
在2016年,中國取代美國
as number one economy to China.
成為世界頭號經濟強國之前
The first is, can you delete these apps,
這三個問題與未來發展有關
and are we in the process of doing so
第一,西方國家是否
in the Western world?
真的能刪除這些應用程式
The second question is,
是否正在這麼做
does the sequencing of the download matter?
第二個問題
And could Africa get that sequencing wrong?
這些應用程式需要注重下載順序嗎
One obvious implication of modern economic history
非洲是否在下載順序上出錯了
is that it's quite hard to transition to democracy
我們從近代經濟歷史中學到
before you've established
如果不先建立有保障的私有產權
secure private property rights.
那麼就很難
Warning: that may not work.
建立民主制度
And third, can China do without
警告,這可能行不通
killer app number three?
第三,若不採用第三種應用程式
That's the one that John Locke systematized
中國是否能成功
when he said that freedom was rooted in private property rights
當John Locke說,自由根植於私有產權
and the protection of law.
和私有產權保護法中
That's the basis
他就是在強調這一點
for the Western model
這就是由
of representative government.
代議制組成政府的西方模式的
Now this picture shows the demolition
基礎所在
of the Chinese artist Ai Weiwei's studio
這張照片顯示了
in Shanghai earlier this year.
中國藝術家艾未未在上海的工作室
He's now free again,
今年早些時候被拆除的畫面
having been detained, as you know, for some time.
經過一段時間的關押
But I don't think his studio has been rebuilt.
他現在已經重獲自由
Winston Churchill once defined civilization
但是他的工作室應該沒有得到重建
in a lecture he gave in the fateful year of 1938.
邱吉爾在1938年的一次演說中
And I think these words really nail it:
曾對文明做出了定義
"It means a society based upon the opinion of civilians.
我認為這句話一針見血
It means that violence, the rule of warriors and despotic chiefs,
「文明意味著社會以民眾的意見為基石。
the conditions of camps and warfare, of riot and tyranny,
意味著暴力,暴君統治
give place to parliaments where laws are made,
集中營,戰爭,暴亂,獨裁
and independent courts of justice
通通讓位於制定法律的議會
in which over long periods those laws are maintained.
和長期保證法律得到執行的
That is civilization --
獨立司法機關
and in its soil grow continually
這就是文明--
freedom, comfort and culture,"
在文明的土壤中
what all TEDsters care about most.
自由,祥和,文化都能成長茁壯。」
"When civilization reigns in any country,
這是所有TED迷最關心的
a wider and less harassed life
「當文明進駐一個國家
is afforded to the masses of the people."
人民的素養也會提升
That's so true.
人民擁有更為自由,舒適的生活。」
I don't think the decline of Western civilization
這一點不假
is inevitable,
我認為西方文明的衰弱
because I don't think history operates
是不可避免的
in this kind of life-cycle model,
因為我認為歷史並不是
beautifully illustrated by Thomas Cole's
以生命循環的方式發展
"Course of Empire" paintings.
並不像 Thomas Cole的系列畫作
That's not the way history works.
《帝國的興衰》所描繪的那般綺麗
That's not the way the West rose,
歷史不是這樣運作的
and I don't think it's the way the West will fall.
西方世界的崛起和衰弱
The West may collapse very suddenly.
都不是這樣發生的
Complex civilizations do that,
西方世界可能轉眼間就崩塌了
because they operate, most of the time,
複雜的文明往往都是這樣
on the edge of chaos.
這是因為大多數情況下
That's one of the most profound insights
這些國家都處於崩潰的邊緣
to come out of the historical study of complex institutions
這是我們在對文明
like civilizations.
這樣複雜制度的歷史研究中
No, we may hang on,
最大的領悟
despite the huge burdens of debt that we've accumulated,
儘管我們負債累累
despite the evidence that we've lost our work ethic
儘管我們的職業道德已經淪喪
and other parts of our historical mojo.
儘管我們其他的歷史優勢都不再靈光
But one thing is for sure,
我們還是可以生存的
the Great Divergence
但各位,有一點是肯定的
is over, folks.
大分流
Thanks very much.
已經玩完了
(Applause)
非常感謝大家
Bruno Giussani: Niall,
(掌聲)
I am just curious
Bruno Giussani:Niall
about your take on the other region of the world that's booming,
我很好奇
which is Latin America.
你對拉丁美洲這片正在崛起的地區
What's your view on that?
有何看法
Niall Ferguson: Well I really am not just talking
說說你的看法
about the rise of the East;
Niall Ferguson:我所談論的
I'm talking about the rise of the Rest,
並不只是東方的崛起
and that includes South America.
我說的是西方以外地區的崛起
I once asked one of my colleagues at Harvard,
南美洲當然也包含在內
"Hey, is South America part of the West?"
我曾經向我在哈佛大學的一位同事請教
He was an expert in Latin American history.
「嘿,南美洲屬於西方嗎?」
He said, "I don't know; I'll have to think about that."
他可是拉丁美洲歷史方面的專家
That tells you something really important.
他說:「我還真不確定,我得好好想想。」
I think if you look at what is happening in Brazil in particular,
這很能說明問題
but also Chile,
各位看看巴西的情況
which was in many ways the one that led the way
還有智利
in transforming the institutions of economic life,
這個國家在經濟生活中的制度轉型
there's a very bright future indeed.
有許多過人之處
So my story really is
這個國家的前景一片光明
as much about that convergence in the Americas
我想說的是
as it's a convergence story in Eurasia.
美洲的大分流
BG: And there is this impression
和歐亞的大分流情況是差不多的
that North America and Europe
集郵薩尼:似乎
are not really paying attention
北美洲和歐洲
to these trends.
都沒有注意到
Mostly they're worried about each other.
這些趨勢
The Americans think that the European model is going to crumble tomorrow.
他們只是相互擔心
The Europeans think that the American budget is going to explode tomorrow.
美國人擔心歐洲模式明天就要分崩離析
And that's all we seem to be caring about recently.
而歐洲人擔心美國各方矛盾不久即將爆發
NF: I think the fiscal crisis
我們似乎最近都在擔心這些
that we see in the developed World right now -- both sides of the Atlantic --
NF:認為發達國家的政府財政危機
is essentially the same thing
不管是歐洲還是美國
taking different forms
在本質上都是相同的
in terms of political culture.
只不過披著不同的
And it's a crisis that has its structural facet --
政治文化外衣而已
it's partly to do with demographics.
這個危機有它自身的結構
But it's also, of course, to do with the massive crisis
這在一定程度上與人口統計數據有關
that followed excessive leverage,
但是這主要還是過度槓桿作用
excessive borrowing in the private sector.
和過度向私有行業貸款
That crisis,
才導致大規模危機的產生
which has been the focus of so much attention, including by me,
民眾對危機過於關注
I think is an epiphenomenon.
我也不例外
The financial crisis is really a relatively small historic phenomenon,
我認為這是一種偶發現象
which has just accelerated
金融危機不算是非常重大的歷史現象
this huge shift,
只是在近期才開始
which ends half a millennium of Western ascendancy.
愈演愈烈
I think that's its real importance.
結束了西方五百年的世襲優勢
BG: Niall, thank you. (NF: Thank you very much, Bruno.)
我認為這才是其重要性所在
(Applause)
BG: 謝謝你(NF:也謝謝你,Bruno)