Subtitles section Play video Print subtitles MATTHEW WALKER: It's a pleasure to be here. And I want to start with a standard disclaimer, which is that when most speakers look to their audience and they see people who are falling asleep or nodding off, it can be profoundly disheartening. However, based on the topic of today's presentation, I'm almost going to actively encourage that kind of behavior from you. In fact, knowing what I know particularly about the relationship between sleep and memory, it's actually the greatest form of flattery for me to see people like you not being able to resist the urge to strengthen what I'm telling you by falling asleep. So feel free just to sort of ebb and flow in and out of consciousness throughout the entire talk. I'll take absolutely no offense. And the talk itself is really going to come in at four main acts, so to speak. Firstly, I want to spend some time telling you about what sleep actually is, the different types, it's characteristics, its structure. And then after that, I'll tell you about the variety of different functions, plural, that we're starting to understand that sleep serves. So I'll tell you about the role of sleep in promoting learning and also memory. But I'll also then tell you how sleep can go beyond simply manipulating individual memories. Sleep seems to be intelligent in that it can cross-link new pieces of information together so you can come up with creative, novel insights the next day. And then finally, I'll describe a role of sleep beyond information processing into your mental health and how sleep seems to be critical for emotional regulation, preparing specific brain circuits for next day social and emotional interactions. So that's the basic overview. Coming on to what sleep is, and I do love this picture. You can just kind of get a sense of the quality and the depth of sleep that's happening there. If we're going on that whole savanna grasslands kind of side street by the way, I just want to come onto this, the giraffe. Firstly, what a strange morphology for a creature. Have you ever wondered how something that looks like that sleeps? Would you like to know how a giraffe sleeps? That's how a giraffe sleeps. Isn't that remarkable. And it tells us at least two things. Firstly, despite such bizarre anatomy, sleep will still find a way to be obtained by the brain. Second, and more generally, in every species that we've studied to date, sleep, or something that looks very much like it, has been observed. What that means is that sleep has fought its way through vehemently every step along the evolutionary pathway. If that's true, sleep must be essential at some of the most basic of biological levels. And that's exactly what we're starting to discover. And sleep in terms of mammalian species at least has been broadly separated into two main types, as some of you may know. On the one hand, we have non-rapid eye movement sleep or non-REM sleep for short. And non-REM sleep has been further subdivided into four separate stages, unimaginatively called stages 1 through 4-- increasing in their depth of sleep-- or a creative bunch of sleep researchers. So increasing in the depth of sleep, stages 3 and 4 are those really deep stages of dreamless sleep. And they're often grouped together under the term slow-wave sleep. Why? Because of these slow, lazy brain waves that happen during the stage of sleep that we measure with electrodes on the head. But don't be fooled. That's not that your brain is dormant by any stretch of the imagination. What it means is that vast portions of your brain, hundreds of thousands of neurons, have all decided to synchronize together and sing together in time. It's a phenomena like no other brain state that we know of. It doesn't happen whilst you're awake. It's a strange phenomena and we still don't truly understand why. On the other hand, we have rapid eye movement sleep or REM sleep named, not after the popular Michael Stipe pop band, but because of these bizarre, horizontal, shuttling eye movements that occur during this stage of sleep. And again, we don't truly understand why your eyes move during that stage of sleep. And it turns out that these two types of sleep, REM and non-REM, will play out in a battle for brain domination throughout the night. And that sort of cerebral war is going to be won and lost every 90 minutes and replayed every 90 minutes. And what that creates is a standard architecture of sleep, what we call a sleep cycle. So I'll just unpack this for you here. We've got the different stages of sleep on the vertical axis. And then time of night along the horizontal axis. And I'll speed this up for you. But what you can see is that upon falling asleep, your brain goes on this delightful roller coaster ride in and out of these different stages of sleep. So you'll quickly descend down into the deep stages of non-REM sleep, 3 and 4. And you'll stay there for a while. And then after about 70 or 80 minutes, you'll start to rise back up and you'll pop up and have a short REM sleep period, here in red. And then back down you go again, down into non-REM sleep and then up into REM. As I said, this cycle is 90 minutes, non-REM through REM. And that's stable across the night. However, what changes is the ratio of non-REM to REM within that 90-minute window as you move across the night, such that in the first half of the night the majority of those 90-minute cycles are comprised of deep non-REM sleep, slow-wave sleep. Whereas as you push through to the second half of the night, now that ratio balance shifts across. And instead, they're dominated much more by rapid eye movement sleep, as well as that lighter form of non-dreaming sleep, stage 2 non-REM sleep. And just to come back to REM sleep, REM sleep is the principal stage during which your brain dreams. And REM sleep is a case of essentially how your brain goes completely out of its mind. Because every one here, as long as you slept last night, you became flagrantly psychotic. Now before you reject my diagnosis of a nightly psychosis, let me give you five good reasons. Because last night when you were in REM sleep and you were dreaming, you started to see things which were not there. So you were hallucinating. Secondly, you believed things that couldn't possibly be true. So you were delusional. Third, you became confused about time, place, and person. So you're suffering from disorientation. Fourth, you had wildly fluctuating emotions. Something that psychiatrists call being affectively labile. And then how wonderful, you woke up this morning and you forgot most, if not all, of that dream experience. So you're suffering from amnesia. If you were to experience any one of those five symptoms whilst you're awake, you would be seeking psychiatric treatment. Yet for reasons again that we don't fully understand, it seems to be both a normal biological and psychological process. One of the other fascinating features of REM sleep is this, paralysis. All of you, when you went into REM sleep last night, were paralyzed. It turns out that there's mechanism deep down here in your brain stem-- so here we have the brain, which as Woody Allen suggested, was his second most favorite organ of the body. And so here's the front of the brain, back of the brain, brain stem down here. Now, this war of REM and non-REM sleep essentially plays out down here. And then is beamed up to the top of the wrinkled mass, atop of the brain, called the cortex. But there's also another signal that goes south, down into the spinal cord. And this signal during REM sleep that goes south essentially inhibits what we call the alpha motor neurons in your spinal cord. They control all of your voluntary skeletal muscles. So ensuring REM sleep, your brain paralyzes your body so your mind can dream safely. It's a bad evolutionary design when you're not perceiving your outside world to start acting out all of those dream commands. And there are plenty of them. Just as a quick aside on this process note by the way, sometimes this persists despite you waking up. Some of you may have experienced this, this persistence of sleep paralysis on awakening. It's quite unusual-- well, it's not unusual proportional wise. About 25% of the population will experience this. It's about as common as hiccups. And what seems to happen is that your brain starts to wake up, but the paralysis isn't released from the body. So you start to become aware. But you can't lift your eyelids, voluntary muscles. You can't move. You can't say anything. It is often associated with a sense of sort of anxiety, a sense of someone else being there in the room. It turns out that this sleep paralysis, this persistence, accurately explains most, if not all, of so-called alien adoptions. I mean when was the last time you ever heard of someone being abducted during the day, in the middle of a meeting? You know. I mean-- whoosh, what was that? Well I believe Jimmy just got abducted by aliens. No, it never happens like that. It's usually at night, when you're in bed. People describe a sense of a presence in the room, that you were paralyzed by these other agents. You couldn't move. You couldn't fight back. You couldn't talk. It's a strange interesting feature. That's a little bit about what sleep is, together with some odd sides. I don't quite know I threw that in there. But anyway, let's now come onto what sleep is doing. And it is serving a whole broad array of functions. Firstly, let me tell you why it's essential to sleep before learning, to prepare your brain, almost like a dry sponge, ready to soak up new information the next day. And to sort of test this question, we're going to run an experiment. Essentially, is pulling the all-nighter a good idea? Here's how you do this. You take two groups of participants. You assign them to a sleep group or a sleep deprivation group. Both are awake across the first day. But then across the following night, those in the deprivation group, we keep them awake in the laboratory under full supervision. They can't fall asleep. The sleep group they get a full eight hours. Both of them are awake across the second day. And then we have them try and cram a whole bunch of facts into their brain. And then we're going to test them to see how efficient that learning has been. But instead of testing them immediately after learning, we actually wait until two full recovery nights of sleep before we test them. So that any measure of memory that we get is not confounded by them simply being too sleepy or inattentive to recollect what they've learned. And that's what you're looking at here on the vertical axis, the efficiency of learning. So the higher up you are, the better you are. And if you put those two groups head to head, what you find is that under conditions of sleep deprivation, there is a quite profound 40% deficit in the capacity of your brain to make new memories, to be able to create new experiences. And this should perhaps be little concerning considering what we know is happening to sleep in our educational populations. If you want to put this in context, it's simply the difference between acing the exam and failing it miserably. Now, of course these are just performance data. We don't know what's going on inside the brain. So to answer that question, we've repeated these experiments. But now, during that attempted learning, subjects are actually inside an MRI scanner as we're taking snapshots of brain activity to see which parts of the brain are switching on or not switching on. So you get these attempted maps of learning in the sleep group and in the sleep deprivation group. And then you simply subtract one from the other to see what the difference is. And when you do that subtraction, you find a highly selective, but highly significant impairment in this part of the brain here. It's a structure called the hippocampus that I'm circling for you. So just to orient you for those not familiar with MRI images, it's as if I've sliced through the brain from ear to ear. And you're looking in from the front, top of the brain, bottom of the brain, left and right side. And I'm circling for you the hippocampus here. You have one on the left and one on the right. And these cool, blue blobs demonstrate that this part of the brain was significantly impaired in those people who were sleep deprived compared to a nice, strong signal coming from that part of the brain in those people who had had a good night of sleep. Why is this important? Well, it turns out that this structure, the hippocampus, is the quintessential reservoir for where your brain creates new memories. In fact if you want to know what life is like without a functioning hippocampus, just watch the movie "Memento." I'm sure many of you have seen this film. If you haven't, watch it, it's a great film. And I won't spoil it for you. But essentially, this gentleman has some brain damage. And from that point forward, he can no longer make any new memories. He is densely amnesic. The part of his brain was damaged was this structure, the hippocampus. It is the very same structure that sleep deprivation seems to selectively attack and block your brain's capacity for efficient learning. Let me just go back to these data because there's an unresolved question here. That was the bad that happens when you don't get sleep. What's going on in those people who are getting sleep? In other words, what is it about the sleep that they're getting, the physiology of their sleep, that seems to be promoting the restoration of memory? And what we've been finding is that there are specific electrical brainwave patterns that are promoting this memory restoration. And they're coming from non-rapid eye movement sleep. And they're these delightful little chaps. They're called sleep spindles. These are short, synchronous bursts of electrical activity in the EEG, the electroencephalogram. They last for about one second of time. So you're going along, brrrrrrr, that's the burst of activity. Your brain doesn't make that sound, of course. That would just be strange. But they're these sort of champagne cork, synchronous bursts of activity. And we believe that they form part of a broad network that promotes the transformation or the translocation of memories from one location in the brain to another. And you can think of the USB, since I'm at Google, in a crass analogy, like a USB hippocampus stick. It's very good grabbing information somewhat quickly, but it has a limited storage capacity. And we believe that these spindles are helping promote the transfer from that hippocampus USB stick, up into that folded mass, the cortex, essentially, in terms of the analogy, the hard drive, the mass storage capacity of the system. And by promoting that real estate transaction, that shifting of geography of information within the brain, not only do you take previous memories and make them safe, put them onto the hard drive, you clear out the USB stick in terms of its memory capacity. So when you wake up the next day, you're freely able to start loading up new information again. Because what we find is that the more of these sleep spindles that you have, the greater the degree of restoration of your learning capacity the next day. So each of these dots represents an individual participant. The more of those spindles that you have, the greater the degree of memory return in terms of capacity for learning that you get the next day. So we're starting to understand not just the bad, when you don't get sleep, but exactly what it is in terms of the good, when you do get sleep, that promotes these cognitive benefits. It turns out that it's not just sufficient for you to sleep before learning. You also need to sleep after learning to essentially cement that new information into the neural architecture of the brain and make it less vulnerable to being forgotten. So it's essentially like hitting the save button. It just takes a lot longer organically within the brain to do that. And there's now good evidence that following that type of a learning scenario, you do need sleep to hit that save button so that you get that improved recollection the following day. And for fact-based memories, what you would think of as textbook-like memory, that seems to require, in terms of sleep, deep sleep, stages 3 and 4, or that slow-wave sleep that I described. So there's lots of good evidence of the past sort of 15 or 20 years that this is the case, correlational evidence. But of course, what you tend to want in science is a causal demonstration. So the question is if you can increase the amount or the quality of your deep slow-wave sleep, presumably you could boost the amount of memory benefit that that sleep is providing. The question of course becomes how do you boost the quality of your slow-wave sleep? Well, there are a variety of different ways. But of course, your favorite and my favorite that would be this, direct current brain stimulation. Have you seen those adverts late night on television where they say don't try this at home? This is one of those. This is not car battery and a couple of electrodes, OK. Although that would be an interesting experiment. Just imagine-- I'm just picturing someone tucking themselves into bed at night, with a bed partner. Good night, honey. And you're playing these electrodes. She says, what are you doing? Don't worry about me. I'm just boosting my sleep. So you can inject essentially a small amount of voltage. And I'll just show you. They're clinically approved. This is what it looks like. You inject a small amount of voltage into the brain. Now, it's so small that you don't even feel it. That's how tiny it is. But it is physiologically efficacious. And the idea here is that you've going to try and pulse in time with the brain during those slow brain waves, OK. And you're going to try and boost the amplitude, the size of those slow waves, on the sea of your brain's cortex. And by boosting that quality of that deep sleep, what happens to memory? So you're going to be applying it during that deep, slow-wave sleep. You've sort of singing in time with the brain. And there are two groups in this experiment. Both groups get all of the equipment applied to their head. One of them doesn't get any stimulation during sleep, however. The other does get simulation. And here's how the experiment works. Here's the mock stimulation group, so the placebo as it were. They're going to study a whole list of facts before going to bed. Then you can briefly test them to see what their retention is like. Then after a night of sleep, the next morning you test them again to see how well their brain has retained the information following sleep. In the other group, the experimental group, this is where we're going to stimulate the brain activity. We're going to juice it up and see if you can sort of enhance it. This is great study done by a German group a few years ago. The question is what happens in terms of the memory benefit? Well, if you look at the group that slept but didn't get simulation, we see the nice, normal memory retention benefit across sleep, replicating what we've seen many times before. In the group that gets the stimulation, you almost double the amount of memory benefit that you get by way of sleep, a causal demonstration that when you manipulate sleep, your manipulate memory. One of the depressing things, however, unfortunately, is some evidence that we recently published just a few months ago, looking at the interaction between sleep and memory as you're getting older. Which for me, seems to be rather rapid. And what we know certainly, and of course everyone knows, is that as you get older, your capacity for learning and memory starts to deteriorate. But one of the quintessential physiological hallmarks of aging is that your sleep starts to deteriorate. And it's not all types of sleep homogeneously. Some types of sleep get hit by the aging process far more severely than others. The type that gets hit most severely is that deep, slow-wave sleep. And so the question was whether or not these factors are simply co-occuring or actually closely related? In fact, we demonstrated that they are significantly interrelated. And this pernicious drop in deep sleep by over about 70% accurately accounts for about 50% of the forgetting that happens with age. These are huge numbers. So there's a suggestion here that disrupted sleep is an underappreciated factor that may contribute to what we called cognitive decline in aging. The exciting silver lining part to that cloud, however, is that it's a potentially treatable target. So we're now trying to see if we can use these types of methods to restore some quality of sleep in aging and see if as a consequence, we can give back some memory function. As it happens, it's not just sleep after learning to strengthen individual memories. Because we've been recently finding that sleep can go far beyond individual memories. Sleep can actually seemingly cross-link vast sets of information, and from that abstract understanding, and even develop creative insights and ideas from that information processing en mass. Let me show you an example of this. Here, in this study, you're going to be, as the subject, performing what's called the numeric number reduction task. It's the type of test that psychologists love to administer and participants hate to perform. What you're going to do is see lots and lots of these number strings. And you're going to have to work through them to come up with a final end solution. Now, one way that you can work through these problems is by using some rules that I'll give you. The first thing you can see is that there are only three numbers here that make up this string, 1, 4, and 9. And this is common. Thought that the numbers are the same. But this notion that there's only ever three numbers in a string set. That's common. And here's what you're going to do. You're going to take the first number, compare it to the next number, and the first rule is this. If this number is the same as the next number, write down the very same number, which it is in this case, a 1, Now, you've got the 1. Compare it to the next number in the line. Is it the same number? If it is, write down the same number. Well, it's not. And here's the second rule. If it's a different number, write down the only other remaining number in the string, which would be a 9. So let's repeat that again. You can take the 9, compare it to a 4. Same or different? It's different. Write down the only other remaining number, a 1. 1 to a 9, different. Write down 4. 4 to 4, it's the same number. So write down the same number, 4 to a 9, 1. 1 to a 9. Oh, my goodness, is it boring and laborious. Now it turns out, and this is exactly how the experiment works, if you paid attention to what I said, I told you one way to solve these problems is by using those rules. Because it turns out there's another way. There is a hidden rule. There is a shortcut. There's a cheat. And if you figure it out, you can blow through many more of these problems. And here's the cheat. The second number that you produce in the string is always the final answer. And so whilst this is different across all the problems in terms of the number, the overarching rule, the commonality across this informational set, is the same. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to expose a whole collection of participants to these problems. Then 12 hours later, you're going to bring them back and expose them to some more problems. And at that 12 hour delay point, you're then going to see what proportion of those participants have developed insight into that hidden rule. Half of those participants are going to remain awake across the day. Expose them to problems in the morning, reexpose them in the evening. The other half, they're exposed in the evening. They reexpose in the morning to the problems. And therefore, they've had a full eight-hour night of sleep in between. So the brain has had equal amounts of opportunity time to distill that informational set and see if it can find out the solution. The only difference is that one group has had sleep. The other hasn't. And we're going to put sort of wake and sleep, head to head in this Coke-Pepsi challenge to see which one wins out. And so here's our outcome metric, the proportion of participants in each of those two groups that gained that knowledge, that creative insight. In the group that remained awake across the day, less than 25% of those participants developed that hidden insight knowledge. What about the sleep group, worse, the same, better? Well, of course they were better. But what was shocking was how much better. This was how much better after sleep. Over 60% of participants, having slept, developed insight into that hidden rule. And what we've been finding-- what I should say is it's almost as though sleep, there is an algorithm in sleep that takes vast informational sets and starts to try and understand the statistical regularities and the rules of those mass data sets. It's a huge distillation. It's a collision of information, creative information processing. And we're finding that some, not all, but some of these types of associative memory processing occurs during rapid eye movement sleep, dreaming sleep. And I believe that it's probably not a coincidence that this is the stage from which we dream. If dreaming is a reflection of whatever information processing is going on with the brain, then it may be this hypersensitive, hypercreative creative, hyperassociative processing that's going on, that leads to these creative insights. As an aside, many people, when I present this evidence to them, will say well, aren't there those sort of creative genius types in history who were supposed not to sleep very much? One of them that's often quoted to me is this gentleman. Does anybody know who this is? AUDIENCE: Edison. MATTHEW WALKER: Edison, exactly. What he's holding is a bit of a giveaway. A brilliant man of course, supposed to be a short sleeper. Now, of course, we'll never truly know if he was a short sleeper or not. But even if he was a short sleeper, it turns out that Thomas Edison was a habitual napper during the day. Here he is after a pretty good garden party it looks like. Here he is on his inventor's bench taking a nap. In fact, Edison understood the creative brilliance of sleep and he used it as a tool. Here's what he would do. He would take a metal saucepan, like this behind him. He would turn it upside down and rest it underneath the armrest of his chair. Then he would take two steel ball bearings in his hand, rest the back of his arm on the chair. Take a pad of paper and a pencil, put it next to him on his desk. And then slowly relax back and fall asleep. And so he didn't sleep too long. What would happen is that his muscle tone would relax. He would release the steel ball bearings. They would crash on the saucepan underneath him, wake him up. And then he would write down all of the ideas that he was having from his sleep. Isn't that brilliant? What a guy. So no wonder you're never told you should really stay awake on a problem. Nobody tells you that. Instead that they tell you to sleep on a problem. And we're starting to find scientific evidence that rigorously backs that up. It turns out, and a friend and a colleague told me this, that this phrase of "sleeping on a problem" seems to be common in most all languages that he's explored to date. What that means is that this phenomenon seems to transcend cultural boundaries. And I should also note that it probably says a lot about the difference between me as a British gentleman and our arch rivals, the French. Because the French translation it turns out of this, essentially is not sleeping on a problem. It's that you sleep with a problem. British, you sleep on a problem. French you sleep with a problem. And it turns out that the politics, the people in politics, reflect this. If you look at the past president Mr. Sarkozy and Mrs. Sarkozy, these are the press release pictures that they offer. She's draped on a bed. He's looking forlorn at her. Whereas the people in British politics, who did we have? Well, we had Margaret Thatcher. We had sort of Tony Blair. You sleep with a problem. You sleep on a problem. I'll say no more. Before-- I'm probably never going to be able to go back to the UK now after that. Beyond information processing, of which now there is good evidence for in terms of sleep dependency, we're now starting to realize there's another brain function of sleep. And that is in preparing the emotional circuits of the brain, offering you stable mental health. Now, I think many of us have a sense that these two factors of sleep and emotion interact in some meaningful kind of way. An example would be a parent holding a child, the child is crying. And they look at you and they say well, you just didn't sleep well last night. As if there's some universal parental knowledge that bad sleep the night before equals bad mood and emotion reactivity the next day. We also know clinically that these factors interact in that nearly all psychiatric mood disorders display co-occurring abnormalities of sleep. In fact, these sleep abnormalities are so prominent they form part of the diagnostic criteria for those psychiatric disorders. But despite that suggested interplay, we've known remarkably little about the basic brain dynamics of this relationship. And that's something that we've also been testing. When you think you've got two factors that are interacting, one way to test that interaction is to manipulate one of the factors and then observe what happens to the other. So here we're going to manipulate sleep and dial it down again and block it with deprivation and see if as a consequence, we can trigger an amplified emotional brain reaction as a consequence. So a very similar design to one I showed you before, a sleep group and a deprivation group. The deprivation group, we keep awake. But then the next day, we put them inside the MRI scanner and we perform an emotional challenge task with them. And here we're going to show them a series of standardized psychological picture slides that range in a gradient from being emotionally neutral to increasingly negative and unpleasant. And I'm just showing you some examples here. They get far worse than this, by the way. They get pretty gruesome. I don't show them. There's probably reactive vomiting of lunch in the front row. But you get the idea. What we can then do is ask a very simple question from our experiments. What in the brain shows increasing reactivity in response to increasing emotional negativity? And the structure that we were focusing on here was this structure in the brain, here in red. It's a structure called the amygdala. It's very deep within your brain. You have one on the left and the right. And it's one of the centerpiece anatomical features for emotion processing and reactivity. And when we looked at this part of the brain in those people who'd had a good night of sleep, there was a modest degree of reaction in response to those negative experiences. So again, a similar view that I described previously. You're looking into the brain from the front, top and bottom, left and right. I'm circling the amygdala for you here. And these hot spots demonstrate a modest reaction. That's what you would want. You don't want no reaction. You don't want too much. In the group who were sleep deprived, rather than seeing impaired brain activity, which is what we'd seen with learning and memory, when it comes to emotion you see exactly the opposite. In fact, here is the emotional brain was 60% more reactive in response to those negative experiences compared to when you'd had a good night of sleep. And you can see that more clearly if you just focus in here. For us, the much more interesting question though was why? Why was your emotional brain so reactive without sleep? And we performed some additional analyses. And what we found is that in those people who had had a good night of sleep, this part of the brain here in green, it's a part that we call the frontal cortex and the middle part of your frontal cortex. The frontal cortex you can think of in terms of the brain, it's like the CEO of the brain. It's very good at making high-level executive decisions, top-down control. By the way, this view, it's as if now you're looking from the side. So this is the front of the brain, the back of the brain, top and base. And when a night of sleep, this part of the frontal cortex was strongly connected to the amygdala, believed to send inhibitory, regulatory control. So with a night of sleep, you had this nice, balanced mix between the emotional gas pedal and the brake. Without sleep, unfortunately, what we found is that connection had been severed. And as a consequence, you've got this amplified, almost Neanderthal-like emotional reaction as a consequence. So now without sleep, it's as though you're all gas pedal and brake. You're all amygdala and too little frontal lobe control as it were. Now, I could go on and show you more bar graphs and MRI images to illustrate these effects. But I'm actually going to let a sleep deprived subject do that for me. Because it turns out that we do video diaries with our sleep deprived participants throughout the period. And I think at this point, we may want to just close down the have video feeds just to not present particular people. It's fine for the audience here. So in summary then in terms of the talk and answer to the question why does my brain sleep, well it sleeps for a whole constellation of different functions, plural. It seems to promote emotional regulation, learning, memory, creativity. And I should also say that I didn't mention anything about the body. But sleep has huge impacts on body systems. It's essential for metabolic control, cardiovascular health, for your immunity. In fact, there is not one single tissue that we have yet to find that isn't beneficiary affected by sleep. So I think my advice would be that the single most effective thing that you can do each and every day to reset your brain and body health is sleep. And I should finish there. I should thank all of my lab members. I actually don't do any hard work. I just drink tea. I write lots of emails. They do all of the hard work. And then I come and give talks like this and pretend that the data is my own. It's not at all. And I'm immensely grateful for all of their dedicated hard work and brilliance. And finally, I noticed some of you stayed awake during this talk. So tonight, after all of this information. I hope you sleep well. Thanks very much indeed. CHRIS: All right. Matt has agreed to take some questions. I think we don't have a microphone up. MATTHEW WALKER: I'll repeat the questions. CHRIS: You have to repeat it. Or we actually have-- I'd like to welcome back, Sina. Come on up. Sina, from SWAN Solutions. For those of you who where at the Sleep-posium a few months ago now, Sina was the MC back then. And we're going to welcome him back to MC again today. MATTHEW WALKER: Hello. SINA NADER: It's good to meet you. MATTHEW WALKER: Good to you meet you, too. SINA NADER: Thank you, Chris. And thank you all for joining us. So we'd like to open it up to questions. Yes, please go ahead? So I'll just repeat the question real quick, about bimodal sleep and maybe polyphasic sleep and any kind of information on that? So Dr. Walker. MATTHEW WALKER: Yes. So it's an interesting question. There is sort of this first sleep and second sleep. The evidence for that I don't think yet is robust. The idea, however, that we should be sleeping biphasically, rather than monophasically, what I mean by that is right now most of us sleep monophasically, one large bout during the night. If you look at some cultures that are not touched by electricity, by some of the devices of Edison, what you see is that some of them will sleep biphasically. They'll sleep about 6 and 1/2 hours at night and then have that siesta-like afternoon nap. And it turns out that if you look at people's physiology and their alertness physiology, in the afternoons, right around this time now, there is a physiologically measurable dip in your arousal. It's that sort of afternoon meeting around the table and everyone sort of doing those head-- those really ugly things. They're not listening to good music. It's that they're falling asleep. And it's because of this drop. Suggesting that in fact we may be biologically preprogrammed to have this sort of dip into that. So I think right now, it's unclear. What I can tell you is that we have also found a whole collection of brain benefits by way of naps as well. Sometimes naps can give as much benefit as a whole night of sleep. And it's not entirely clear why. SINA NADER: Next question. Yes, please? So caffeine and sleeping pills, Dr. Walker? MATTHEW WALKER: So caffeine can certainly mask some of the effects of sleepiness. The way caffeine works is that during the day whilst you're awake, a chemical builds up in your brain. That chemical is called adenosine. Adenosine is there to tell your brain how long you've been awake. And when it gets up to a critical mass, you start to feel sleepy. That's how it works. Caffeine comes in and blocks the receptors of adenosine and fools your brain into thinking there is not as much adenosine around anymore. So you start to become alert. However, caffeine can get you around some of the very rudimentary impacts of insufficiency, like reaction times for example. You can speed back up with caffeine to a degree. For these much more complex processes of brain plasticity and emotional regulation, there caffeine doesn't seem to be a sufficient substitute. You can't get over it with caffeine. In terms of sleep medications, it's a great question. The older sleep medications, what we used to call the sedative hypnotics, certainly you weren't awake when you took those medications. That's for sure. That you were asleep is actually very difficult to argue based on the physiology of the brain wave patterns. Essentially, they just sedated you. So the naturalistic sleep was I think highly arguable. The more recent new-to-market medications are producing what some have argued is more naturalistic sleep. But it's still not necessarily purely naturalistic. Some of those sleep medications, the common ones, and I won't describe a particular target, particular brand names, but the common ones that are prescribe right now, they can impact the ratio and the quality of your non-REM sleep. So, for example, that you may not get the depth of that deep sleep. And you've seen the benefit of that depth of deep sleep. It can change the quality and when your REM sleep seems to arrive. So again, I think thinking about those medications as yes, I slept eight hours and yes, I don't remember waking up so I must have had a good night of sleep, that may be a fool's gold. MALE VOICE: Question from VC. SINA NADER: What's that? Oh, OK. Go ahead. MALE VOICE: Do you have any data on the amount of sleep needed to have these constantly good or optimal? To little sleep, too much sleep, what it is the boundaries? MATTHEW WALKER: Yes. So it's a good question about what is the optimal sweet spot for sleep? The answer to that question is a little difficult because it will be different for every individual. It's just like giving a calorie recommendation. I can tell you that 2,000 calories a day is about the right prescription for most individuals. But for different people's physiology and their metabolic demand, some people will need more or less. And it's the same with sleep. But what we've been finding is that once you start to get less than seven hours of sleep, you can observe measurable impairments. One of the other dangers of that is that your subjective opinion of how you're doing with insufficient sleep is a miserable predictor of objectively how you actually are doing when you've had insufficient sleep. So people will say no, I can survive fine on six hours. We said no, I know that you think you can survive fine. But you can measure those changes. You can see those impairments. And they happen quite quickly. One of the other interesting question is too much sleep. And there has been some evidence in the literature that once you start to get past nine or 10, things like mortality and morbidity actually start to go back up again in a way. So it's sort of like this U-shaped function, that there's a sweet spot in the middle around eight. Anything to either side of that, maybe that's bad. It's difficult because if you look at some of that data, firstly it's not clear that it's just people staying in bed longer from those surveys, rather than sleeping longer. Secondly, one of the other theories is that sleep is so essential for your body health, that if you look, those people who are sleeping longer may actually be people who are sick. And the reason that they're sleeping longer is the body is desperately trying to do what it does very well to get them better, which is to sleep. So I think some of that evidence about what's called hypersomnia, sleeping too much, is still unclear. It's not to say that too much sleep can be a bad thing. I think it possibly could be, just like too much weight is a bad thing. It's about a natural balance between the two. And it's about 1/3 to 2/3 in terms of the 24-hour period. It's about eight hours is a good, sweet spot. SINA NADER: All the way in the back there, please? So the question was about the sleep spindle experiment and the not so light exposure? MATTHEW WALKER: Yes. So for that stimulation experiment where they were injecting the voltage, yes, you saw both an increase in the quality of the deep sleep, and you can measure that quality electrically. And there was also an increase in the amount of spindles that went along with it. There weren't correlations reported between those two. But both of those things, the deep sleep and the spindles, where ratcheted up by that stimulation. Light pulse frequency, I don't know if anyone's tried it yet. But there was a recent report that used auditory stimulation, rather than electrical stimulation. And they were even able to use a subthreshold awakening auditory stimulation to kind of almost entrain the brain into greater rhythmic activity and increase the slow-wave sleep and as a consequence increase the memory performance too. And there's other ways that you can do that too. During learning when you're awake, you can pair the specific material with certain perceptual cues like sound or smells, like a rose odor. If you puff back up the nose during deep sleep that same rose odor, whilst they're sleeping, you reactivate the memories and you boost the amount of consolidation that you get. There lots of ways you could manipulate it. So I mean if you want to burn your incense whilst you're learning, and then at night blaze a few more up, maybe that would-- fire hazard actually. That's probably a very-- don't do that, sorry. That's a stupid idea-- but anyway. SINA NADER: Fascinating stuff. Next question, right here please? Cognitive function, exercise, and sleep? MATTHEW WALKER: So the interaction triad that you're speaking about there, I don't know of any evidence that people have done that particular experiment. But certainly the first two factors is well known. That exercise will improve the quality of your sleep. It can increase the depth of that deep sleep. So the argument would be that it should produce causal memory benefits. You have to be a little bit careful. There's some argument that exercising too close to bedtime stops you efficiently going to sleep. The reason is because for you to initiate sleep, your brain and your body have to drop by about 1 degree Celsius in terms of core temperature to initiate that sleep. That's why it's always easier to fall asleep in a room that's too cold than that's too hot. And because of that core increase due to the metabolic expenditure from exercise, you can maintain that heat and you don't fall asleep as well. It's the reason by the way that baths, a warm bath works. And it's for the exact opposite reasons that you think it works. You have a bath. You feel oh, that's sort of nice, warm, and cozy, I'll get into bed. And you fall asleep more easily. What happens is that when you come out of the bath, because you've have what's called mass vasodilation dilation, all of your capillaries have sort of expanded to try and get the heat out of your body. Then when you get out, you lose a massive amount of heat. You get far more heat expenditure. That heat expenditure helps you with that initiation, dropping your core body temperature. That's why you fall asleep easier. SINA NADER: Questions? Yes, please? That's a wonderful question. The question was is yawning contagious? MATTHEW WALKER: Yes, yawning is contagious. And you can even see cross-contagion, cross-species contagion. I'm not kidding you. People have-- I don't if they've empirically studied But there's good evidence that you can be staring at your dog and you can yawn. And then what happens is that your dog starts to yawn in addition. So that does seem to be. And that seems to be perhaps not necessarily related to sleep. But there's something called a mirror system within the brain. That the brain seems to have this capacity to understand and even mirror what's going on in other people. It's that same reason that if you see someone closing a door and their fingers are going to get trapped in the door, you instantly go-- hsst. Why did you do that? Your hand is not going to get trapped in the door. It's because you have this mirror system. It's a very clever system in the brain. It allows you almost this insight into how other people are. And that same system can create these types of contagions and yawning is one of them. SINA NADER: Next question? Yes, please? So the question was about marijuana and sleep? MATTHEW WALKER: Yeah, it's a good question. I've got no idea obviously why you're asking that. And I don't know of good evidence right now to examine the systematic changes on sleep and how it influences things like learning and memory and cognition. It certainly does seem to disrupt some features of sleep. There are some reports of alterations in rapid eye movement sleep. What I can speak to much more so though is alcohol, which is far more frequently used. Alcohol, you're absolutely right, it is a potent suppressor of REM sleep. And it's one of the reasons that people will describe to you, saying well, I've had a bit too much to drink and then I was having these really strange dreams the next morning. Here's how it works. It's actually not alcohol. It's the metabolic byproduct of alcohol, the aldehydes and the ketones. And they will suppress REM sleep. So you're going throughout the night and you've got all of this drink in you system. And your liver and your kidneys are desperately trying to metabolize it, get it out of the system. And what's happening is that you're not getting any REM sleep because of the impairment. But your brain is clever. It keeps a clock count of how much REM sleep you should have had. And then when the alcohol is finally washed out of the system, not only do you then have the REM sleep that you were going to have, you also have that plus it tries to get back some of the REM sleep that you missed. Its called the REM sleep rebound effect. And as a consequence, you get this really intense REM sleep late morning. With REM intense sleep, you get intense dreaming. That seems to explain why. SINA NADER: Next question? Yes, please? So a follow-up question on the electrostimulation question and different effects it might have? MATTHEW WALKER: Yes. So I don't know yet of the electrical brain stimulation and benefits downstairs, sort of south in the body. But I can tell you the inverse of that question, which is if you selectively deprive people of deep sleep, what are the body consequences? And they are significant. You can manipulate. And the way that you do this is whilst people are sleeping, you play them just sort of tones, annoying tones. Now, the tones aren't enough to make them fully wake up because you dial the volume around. But it keeps them out of deep sleep and keep them in shallow sleep. So you can remove the anxiety of waking them up. You don't have to shake them or anything. So it's a very clever manipulation where you can selectively excise deep sleep. As a consequence, you can disrupt metabolic regulation profoundly. In fact after a couple of nights of this, your capacity to regulate your basic body glucose look so severe that you'd be classified as prediabetic. And you can do that even just with basic sleep disruption. If I take you for five days and I let you only sleep for five hours or four hours a night for five days, the same metabolic profile of sort of diabetic-like impairment happens. You can see the same with immunity. If I do the same thing, if I short-sleep you for five days, your body's capacity to create an immune reaction to something like the influenza A virus, the flu jab, is dropped by 50%. Your body's immunity is at half its capacity to mount a response after short sleeping. So there are profound impacts, not just on the brain, but deep within the body by way of insufficient sleep or even selective sleep disruption. SINA NADER: Other questions? Yes, please? So the correlation between timing of sleep and learning? MATTHEW WALKER: Yeah. It's a very good question. What we found for the most part is that as long as you sleep that evening sometimes, even learning earlier during the day will still be retained and saved. And in some ways that make sense because you wouldn't want to create a system of memory where only that which you learned just in a few hours before sleep was going to be retained by sleep. The sleep system seems to have a capacity to absorb about 16 hours of the day's duration. However, if you don't sleep that night after learning, then I don't test you the next day. I give you a recovery night of sleep on the next night and even another recovery night of sleep and then test you, there is no evidence of a memory consolidation benefit. In other words, if you don't sleep in the first 24 hours after learning, you lose the chance to consolidate those memories. So it is a time-sensitive feature. But within the natural boundaries of how we normally should be waking and sleeping, that seems to be fine. SINA NADER: Right here. Yes, please? So I guess the timing of sleep onset? MATTHEW WALKER: Yeah. So that's a fantastic question. I only know of one study out there. We didn't do this. But they looked at how regular or irregular your sleep was in terms of onset and offset, which is just what you're describing there. And they found that, perhaps even more strongly or as strongly as amount of sleep, was the instability of that sleep predicted worse memory retention. I believe it was actually in a very prominent university and one of the hardest exams for that university, which is organic chemistry. And they found that less so than the lecture or the great lecture notes, your sleep stability was a very statistically strong predictor of how you were going to do on that exam. SINA NADER: I wish I would have known that when I was taking-- OK. Yes, please? The question is about what state of sleep you wake up in, and alarm clocks, and health? MATTHEW WALKER: Yeah. Again, I don't know of any systematic studies that have tried to look at forced awakening by way of an alarm clock versus naturalistic. The alarm clock, from sort of an anthropological perspective, is a fascinating thing. Again, if you go to cultures that are not touched by sort of electrical means, the notion of ratcheting your brain out of sleep non-naturally is a very strange one. And it came by way of the factory whistle. I mean that was the first alarm clock in a sense. So you got standardized, mass people movement. So certainly, I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to be setting an alarm clock if you can do it naturalistically. Your body has a pretty good clock counter of what it needs. And it will wake up when it's time. But I don't know of any good evidence that tries to look at those sort of clever clocks that seem to essentially monitor your brain, figure out when the optimal sweet spot is, base it on the light time. I haven't seen many ambulatory devices like those that are actually accurate for sleep staging. SINA NADER: Next question? Let's go with you please. The question was about naps and studies about them? MATTHEW WALKER: Yeah. We just shout at them, go to sleep. No. It turns out that we time them to co-occur with that-- it's called the post-prandial dip, that drop in your physiological alertness right surround now in the afternoon. So you give them a meal. You put them to bed around this time. And for most young, healthy people, even though we've standardized their sleep schedule, for five days before we've made sure that they've been getting eight hours of sleep or between 7 and 1/2 and eight hours of sleep a night. They still seem to be able to initiate a nap. It takes them about 10 to 15 minutes to go into that nap, but once they're there. These are young, healthy people. By the way, I should say 18 to about 35. It seems to be harder with age to do those things. But you can seem to initiate that sleep during the afternoon. It's obviously a lot harder if you place the nap earlier in the morning. They haven't built up enough sleep pressure yet to go back into sleep. In other words, they haven't accumulated enough adenosine in their brain to force them to go into sleep. Around 6:00 PM, you start to rise back up again in your alertness after that afternoon dip. So it's actually quite hard, despite it being later in the day, to get people to nap then too. So if you understand the biology, you can place the nap window of opportunity time right where it sits and you can get about an 85% hit rate in terms of people falling asleep. SINA NADER: Other questions? So coffee in the morning? MATTHEW WALKER: Yep. So it's actually just a habit based-- I mean your body doesn't need caffeine. People who are drinking caffeine before about midday, you're simply self-medicating your lack of sufficient sleep. So after while it becomes a psychologically habituating effect. If you start to have decaffeinated and people don't tell you, apart from the headaches, based on the physiology that's built up-- you know the notion of a warm drink can do it for you. It tells you have it habit-based, rather than a physiological need. So it's a misnomer that you need that. If you do need that, you should probably be getting more sleep. SINA NADER: A question here, please? So I guess light sleepers and perception versus reality? MATTHEW WALKER: So what we know is that some of those other electrical features of the brain, including the sleep spindles, are not just important for memory processing. Sometimes they seem to respond to external stimuli in your environments. And some people have argued that some of those spindles, they are slower frequency spindles. The faster frequency ones are the ones that relate to memory. The slower frequency ones seem to be relating to external noise. And the argument is that there is physiological mechanisms in place that try to keep you asleep. But it turns out that depending on the spindle quality that you have, you may be more or less susceptible to being woken up by external noises. And it seems to be that that physiology can determine whether or not you're a quote, unquote "light sleeper" versus a "deep sleeper." So we haven't fully understood and characterized that yet. But there are a few reports out there demonstrating that electrical features of the sleeping brain can determine how vulnerable or resilient you are to the sort of alerting, waking up cues is of external sounds and stimuli. So we can understand better. SINA NADER: We had one question over here. Yes, please? So the question was about duration of sleep and-- MATTHEW WALKER: No. I would always recommend getting as much sleep as you can possibly get. It's not clear exactly how those 90-minute cycles interact with each other to accumulate and accommodate all of the different brain and body demands that are going on, since we don't understand that algorithm right now. But what we certainly do understand is that getting less than sufficient sleep can cause impairments, it would be far better just to sleep as long as you possibly can. Yeah. I mean you have to remember that human beings are one of the few species that have decided to deliberately deprive themselves of sleep. The rest of the organismic kingdom seems to be far smarter than we are in terms of our understanding of sleep. So I would definitely recommend get as much as you possibly can. AUDIENCE: How much do you sleep? MATTHEW WALKER: It's a good question. I usually say I sleep about eight hours whenever I can, which is never. No. I will routinely get between about seven and a half to eight hours of sleep. If I get less than seven hours, I know it. When you're this type of a researcher you become sort of like the Woody Allen neurotic of the sleep world, both by way of I know I can observe all of the impairments because I'm acutely aware of them. And worse still, when I'm in bed, let's say I've kind of crossed time zones and I've got all of those problems. I'm lying in bed and I know all about the biology of what should happen to initiate sleep. So I'm thinking my god, my core body temperature is probably half a degree off. I'm not shutting down my dorsolateral prefrontal cortex. The histamine in my brain-- and at that point, you're dead in the water. In the next hour, you're going to ruminate. So I wouldn't recommend-- stay with whatever job you're in as long as it's not sleep research. SINA NADER: Well said. How much time do we have, Chris? CHRIS: You can go longer. SINA NADER: Keep going, OK. Over here, please. Yes? So the question was how to deal with daytime fatigue? MATTHEW WALKER: Yeah. I think the most obvious question is start to get sufficient sleep, if that's routinely happening. If it's that one-off circumstance, certainly you can have countermeasures. So things like caffeine can be somewhat effective in terms of driving, sort of if you start to feel drowsy. But drowsy driving, for the most part the recommendation is just get off the road. Because what you can have during fatigue is what we call microsleeps. And they can happen for just a few seconds, even less, where you just kind of zone out and you come back. And it turns out that at 65 miles an hour, you only need one of these microsleeps to go two lanes in the opposite, left or right, direction. So that may be the last microsleep that you ever have. So caffeine can work to an extent if it's a one-off. Certainly, if you can take sleep, have a short sleep period. You have to be a little bit careful after a nap though because what happens upon waking up from a nap or a normal night of sleep is that you have something called sleep inertia. Which is that it's just like the car engine. It takes a little bit of time to warm up. Now, it's not oil that needs to warm up in terms of your brain of course. Some parts of your brain come back online more slowly than others. The frontal lobe in particular seems to take a longer duration of time. So in other words, if you do have a counteractive nap to overcome that tiredness, don't necessarily jump right back in the car, wake up and start driving again. Go grab a coffee. And then sort of give yourself 15 or 20 minutes to wake up. Then start doing those types of activities. SINA NADER: Question? Let's go with the back there, please? The question was what's a good length for a nap? MATTHEW WALKER: The answer really depends on what you want out of it. If you want to just restore your basic level of alertness, 15, 20 minutes, that can have potential benefits. For things like learning and memory, it seems as though you need to go longer, depending on what type of learning and memory information that you're trying to get a benefit from. For emotional brain regulation, what we're finding there is that rapid eye movement sleep again comes into play, dream sleep. And we've been finding that for those emotional regulation benefits from a nap, you need to go long to get that REM sleep, which comes at the end of the cycle. So it's not a simple answer. It really depends on what you're trying to self-medicate in terms of a functional benefit from that nap. SINA NADER: Question right here, please? So melatonin and sleep? MATTHEW WALKER: So I think the evidence right out there now suggests that melatonin doesn't necessarily affect the duration of your sleep, nor the quality of your sleep. What melatonin does is help with the regulation of initiation of sleep. So the timing of sleep, not the duration or the quality of sleep. Melatonin is a naturally released hormone within the body. It's called the "hormone of darkness," not because it looks just great and bad-assed sort of thing. It's because it's released at night time. And it tells your brain that it is night time. It tells the brain and the body that this is the time to sleep. So that's why it's efficacious when you travel through time zones because now there's a mismatch between your biological clock and the time zone. And so whilst your biological clock is still saying it's 4:00 in the afternoon, in the new time zone it's midnight. And so if you take melatonin a little bit before sleep onset, then your brain is fooled into no longer thinking it's sort of 4:00 PM in the afternoon. But it's oh, my goodness, it must now be midnight. And that can help the initiation of sleep. But I think the evidence is pretty robust now, not the duration or the quality. SINA NADER: Let's go with somebody we haven't had yet. Yes, please? So the question was about elderly people and sleep and kind of what can be done to remedy or address it? MATTHEW WALKER: Yes. So certainly electrical brain stimulation is one of those that we're starting to try and implement now. Obviously, it's probably not a population-wise therapeutic device sort of more generally. I think firstly, we need to demonstrate that by restoring that sleep we can get the memory benefit. If we can, then I think there's lots of other ways that you can do it. Exercise is one of them. One of the types of sleep that exercise will enhance when you do get it, as long as the exercise isn't too close, is deep slow-wave sleep. There is pharmacology of course. Although you have to be a bit careful with pharmacology because it tends to be systemic and it tends to have variety of other effects. But there are drugs out there on the market that seem to increase what looks like the depth of that deep sleep. So I think there are a variety of pharmacological, electrical, behavioral techniques that you can use. And some combination or all of those may be useful long term, depending on how the technology could be distributed at a population level. SINA NADER: A question over here please, yes? So the question was sort of about the pattern of maybe the sleep/wake cycle, if I can summarize it. MATTHEW WALKER: So it's a fascinating, still within the field, philosophical rather than sort of scientifically addressed question right now, which is why would you lose consciousness? It's not the energy savings. So it turns out that if you were to just lie on your couch, couch-potato like, even with your eyelids closed but remain awake, the caloric difference between sort of that and falling asleep is only about the calorie savings of a slice of brown bread. My point being is that that seems to be a totally inefficient benefit for losing consciousness and falling prey to all of the dangers that happen like that. Why wouldn't you just go out and club another seal and have more food and save back that-- sort of get back that energy and not have to lose consciousness by way of this thing that we call sleep in terms of a process that evolved. So clearly what seems to be essential, or one of the things that seems to be essential, is disengaging with the outside information or perceptual world. Don't forget though that the perceptual information processing world does reoccur during sleep, during this thing that we call REM sleep, which is dreaming. But one of the potential benefits of going offline is that the processing cognitively of information that happens either when you're awake with your eyes shut versus the nonconscious state of the deep non-REM sleep, that may be required for this type of offline information processing. Because otherwise, you get information interference. You get cross-wiring of those combating information streams. And you can't effectively do what the sleeping brain seems to do. That's one possibility. I still think it's a huge mystery though as to why. It seems so counterintuitive. You're not finding a mate. You're not socially interacting. You're not getting food. All of these things would suggest sleep is a bad idea. Yet it's universal, it seems. SINA NADER: It reminds me of a quote I heard you mention in another talk. If sleep wasn't-- if it wasn't necessary, it was the greatest mistake of evolution, something to that effect. Another question? Yes, please? Go ahead. So naps and interfering with regular-- restless sleep? MATTHEW WALKER: Yes. So when it comes back to naps, we come back to the adenosine story again. So as I described to you, adenosine starts to build up in this time-dependent fashion in the day. When you sleep, what happens-- it's like a pressure cooker building up with steam. When you sleep, you dissipate that pressure. You remove the adenosine. So you come back down to your baseline level again. That's why if you've had enough sleep, you wake up feeling alert or you should be. What happens with the naps, and naps can be a double-edge sword, if you sleep too long or you have them too late in the day, is that you're building up that adenosine pressure that will make you go to sleep in a healthy manner at night. You have a nap and the nap removed-- opens the valve. And you dissipate some of that sleep pressure, some of it, not all of it, but some of it. And now, you wake up and you feel more alert again. And it takes you longer to get back to that point of feeling sleepy again that evening than it would have if you had not taken the nap. So in other words, you then start to think well, it's 11:00, midnight. Well, I'm not sleepy. I normally am. And the reason is because you haven't taken a nap during the day. But because you have just recently, that has removed some of that sleep pressure. So you're no longer as sleepy anymore at that time of day. So you have to be a bit careful with naps because they will take away some of that urge to sleep. And that's presumably why exactly that happens that you described. AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]? MATTHEW WALKER: No, I think the idea would be that if you're-- the question was would you sort of habituate to the naps? The idea would be if you're taking those naps, essentially you can think of it like absorbing some of the eight-hour quota that you're having. And so it may be that you would then be going to bed later, but you would sleep a shorter amount and wake up the next day. And it depends on the evidence that look at. But there's some argument that as long getting that eight hours, to a degree that's not too bad in that biphasic manner. I think highly polyphasic sleep, however, that is somewhat of a trend now and sort of sleeping 90 minutes, being awake then another two hours, and all of this stuff, that doesn't seem to be the way that the biology is programmed within adult humans. It was the way in which you were programmed when you were a small infant though. Infants are highly polyphasic in their sleep. They will be asleep for short periods, then awake, sleep. And parents know this, unfortunately, to their detriment. But once you get into adulthood, the pattern stabilizes, certainly into a biphasic, perhaps monophasic. So, yup. SINA NADER: Other questions? Yes, please? So the question was about new parents and sleep deprivation? MATTHEW WALKER: Yeah. I hear that a lot. I did survive. And if that's your basal level of success, it says so much. There is no good knowledge right now that human beings have any kind of learned ability to overcome sleep deprivation. You hear this a lot in some of these sort of heroic professions. Medicine is a good one. Sort of that old boys' network notion that well, it takes a special person, one who can learn to deal with sleep deprivation. You have to realize that, again, the few sort of set of species that do go into sleep deprivation, there's no way that within a short lifetime of an individual you can learn to adopt to millions of years of evolution that put this thing in place called sleep. And it's never faced the evolutionary challenge of having to deal with a lack of sleep. Because it's not common. And so this idea, this misplaced idea, that you can sort of learn to cope with it or that there is a biological safety net that you can invoke at certain times, that doesn't seem to be necessarily true. However, there are some exceptions. There are some interesting scenarios where some species for a certain duration of their cycle will undergo sleep deprivation, one of which is migrating birds. And there is a particular migrating bird that during that period of migration, seems to be somewhat resistant to the effects of insufficient sleep. Yet out of that phrase of the migration, it is susceptible to the sleep deprivation. And that's fascinating. Because it tells us that maybe there are some biological mechanisms that can offer some resilience for a short period of time. It turns out the military were fascinated by it. They were very interested in finding that work to figure out-- obviously, you know, a 24-hour soldier. But for the most part, there isn't good evidence that people-- or there's anything like sort of breastfeeding or nursing or any circumstance that seems to co-opt and invoke resilience to the impact of sleep deprivation. SINA NADER: Question in the back? So the question was about gadgets, including the Zeo? And then also about sort of self-treatment or maybe autotitration, that type of thing? MATTHEW WALKER: So since I'm not a clinician, an M.D., I can't really give too many recommendations about the apnea stuff. But certainly in terms of Zeo, there have been some empirical data put out there that suggests that it may have a somewhat good degree of correlation between the gold standard of in-lab electrodes, validated sleep staging relative to its algorithm of sleep staging. It tends to be able to simply quantify light sleep and deep sleep and then arguably dream sleep, REM sleep. However if you look around, for example if you just go onto to Amazon and you look at the user reviews, some people are saying well, right now, I am looking at my Zeo. And I'm awake and I'm looking at the clock and it's saying I'm in REM sleep. What's going on? And I don't believe that they're having a hallucination whilst their dreaming. I think that's probably real. So I think those algorithms have got a way to go before they reach that. And I don't think they're valid yet as a strong, at least a experimental tool. And I think Zeo has actually, unfortunately, just gone out of business. SINA NADER: Other questions? Yes, over here please? That's a great question. I have the same question myself. The question was about kind of upcoming research and things that might be on the horizon? MATTHEW WALKER: Yeah. Well, not wanting to give away too many of our research goals and secrets. But I think certainly one of the areas is in this area of sleep and the lifespan. So firstly, you're looking at the aging issue, not just in aging, but now into dementias. We know that the pathology of things like Alzheimer's disease hits very perniciously the sensors in the brain that regulate and generate that deep sleep. So starting to really understand translationing, what all of this basic science means for things like clinical disorders such as Alzheimer's disease I think is going to be critical. Also that role of sleep in emotional brain regulation I think is going to just explode in terms of a field. And its core relevance will be in this selection of psychiatric disorders that suffer co-occurring impairments of sleep. I think sleep has a huge story to tell in psychiatry. And I think that story right now has not been told. In part, because people like me haven't been doing enough basic research. I think we're starting to get to the stage where we've understood it enough where we can make that translational leap. I think psychiatry has often thought that sleep disruption was simply a side product of the psychiatric disorder. You could flip that question around and ask is the sleep disruption contributing or causing the psychiatric disorder? That's a tenable hypothesis. Ultimately, I think it's going to be neither one of those. Biology tends to never be unidirectional. It tends to be bidirectional. Is the flow of traffic going more strongly one way up the street than another? That's possible. So I think the whole translation of this basic understanding of what sleep is doing is going to be big in terms of clinical medicine soon. Also reversing the time clock back into development. Some of the greatest changes in our sleep happen within the first two years of life and then after that, right into adolescence. If sleep is regulating all of these functions, they're also functions that show demonstrable changes in those developmental phases, learning, memory, plasticity. Babies starting to understand what the rules of this thing that we call the world that we live in are. It turns out that if you give infants naps, they can start to abstract rules, even before they can speak. You can see it in their behavior, sleep-promoting creativity. So I think that understanding. Because developmental changes and developmental disorders also co-occur with some sleep abnormalities. So I think there's a lot. I think other interactions are also going to be with genetics. I think we're starting to understand that different genetic compositions have a lot to tell us about the impact of sleep and sleep deprivation. Being one genetic flavor, does that mean that you're resilient versus another that means that you're vulnerable? What does that mean ethically for professions if we've got a number of professions that we know of where sleep deprivation is rife, should we be interviewing them and then doing a genetic test if we find that type of evidence? So I think there's fascinating possibilities. But I think the cool one is that this is one of the last, great scientific mysteries of why we sleep. You spend a third of you life doing it. And people like me, doctors and scientists, I can't give you a satisfying, consensus answer. I mean that just blows my mind. Despite all of the advances in molecular biology, we don't have an answer. And imagine that. When as a parent, you first child is born and the doctor walks in and says, congratulations, everything looks great. It's a healthy boy or a girl. All the tests look good. And they smiling in that reassuring way and they start to walk away. And before they get to the door they say, there is just one thing. Routinely from this point forward and for the rest of your child's life, they will lapse into a state that looks like nonconsciousness. In fact, it looks not dissimilar to death. But don't worry, it's reversible. And they will do that, fulfilling approximately one third of their entire life. They will have hallucinogenic, bizarre experiences. And I don't know why. Good luck. And at that point, you'd say, no, no, that can't be true. I'm sorry. That's silly. That's what sleep is. So beyond all of the translation or big picture stuff, I think we still have to come back to answering that question, why do we sleep?
B1 sleep brain rem rem sleep walker matthew Why Does My Brain Sleep? 309 20 張鴻 posted on 2013/09/13 More Share Save Report Video vocabulary