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Let's go back to 1957.
譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: 易帆 余
Representatives from six European countries
讓我們一起回到 1957 年。
had come to Rome
來自六個歐洲國家的代表
to sign the treaty that was to create the European Union.
來到了羅馬,
Europe was destroyed.
簽訂了創立歐盟的條約。
A world war had emerged from Europe.
歐洲被毀掉了。
The human suffering was unbelievable
世界大戰在歐洲爆發。
and unprecedented.
人類受到的苦難是難以置信的、
Those men
史無前例的。
wanted to create a peaceful,
那些人
democratic Europe,
想要創造一個和平、
a Europe that works for its people.
民主的歐洲,
And one of the many building blocks
一個為人民服務的歐洲。
in that peace project
這個和平計畫的
was a common European market.
許多組成元素之中,
Already back then,
其中一個就是歐洲共同市場。
they saw how markets,
在當時,
when left to themselves,
他們就已經明白,
can sort of slip into being just the private property
市場如果被放任不管,
of big businesses and cartels,
就會造成私人企業的
meeting the needs of some businesses
市場壟斷與聯合壟斷行為。
and not the needs of customers.
它們只想滿足某些企業的需求,
So from our very first day,
而非消費者的需求。
in 1957,
所以,打從第一天起,
the European Union had rules
在 1957 年,
to defend fair competition.
歐盟就訂定了一些規則
And that means competition on the merits,
用來保護市場的公平競爭,
that you compete on the quality of your products,
也就是良性競爭,
the prices you can offer,
你要靠你的產品品質、
the services, the innovation that you produce.
提供的價格、
That's competition on the merits.
服務、創新來競爭。
You have a fair chance of making it on such a market.
這樣才是良性競爭。
And it's my job,
在這樣的市場上, 你才有公平的成功機會。
as Commissioner for Competition,
而身為歐盟
to make sure that companies who do business in Europe
競爭委員會的委員長, 我的工作是
live by those rules.
確保在歐洲做生意的公司
But let's take a step back.
能因為這些規則, 可以安心地做生意。
Why do we need rules on competition at all?
但,讓我們先退一步想想。
Why not just let businesses compete?
為什麼競爭還需要定規則?
Isn't that also the best for us
為什麼不放任企業去競爭就好了?
if they compete freely,
如果它們能自由競爭,
since more competition
對我們不是最好的嗎?
drives more quality,
畢竟,越多競爭
lower prices, more innovation?
會帶動更好的品質、
Well, mostly it is.
更低的價格、更多的創新,不是嗎?
But the problem is that sometimes, for businesses,
嗯,大致上來說是沒錯。
competition can be inconvenient,
問題是,有時候,對企業來說,
because competition means that the race is never over,
競爭會帶來不方便,
the game is never won.
因為競爭意味著, 賽跑永遠不會結束,
No matter how well you were doing in the past,
永遠沒有比賽贏家。
there's always someone
不論你在過去做得多好,
who are out there wanting to take your place.
總有某個人
So the temptation to avoid competition
等著要取代你的位置。
is powerful.
所以,規避競爭的誘惑
It's rooted in motives as old as Adam and Eve:
是很強大的。
in greed for yet more money,
它深根在與亞當夏娃 一樣古老的動機裡面:
in fear of losing your position in the market
這些動機包括:對錢的貪婪、
and all the benefits it brings.
怕失去在市場上地位的恐懼感、
And when greed and fear
還有它帶來的所有利益。
are linked to power,
當貪婪和恐懼
you have a dangerous mix.
跟權力連結在一起,
We see that in political life.
就是一種很危險的組合。
In part of the world,
我們在政治生態中可以看到這點。
the mix of greed and fear
在世界的某些地區,
means that those who get power
貪婪和恐懼的結合
become reluctant to give it back.
意味著取得權力的人
One of the many things
會不願意把權力交回。
I like and admire in our democracies
而民主,
are the norms
讓我很喜歡和欣賞的其中一點
that make our leaders hand over power
就是規範,
when voters tell them to.
當投票者要求我們的領袖 把權力交出來時,
And competition rules can do a similar thing in the market,
他們就必須要交出來。
making sure that greed and fear doesn't overcome fairness.
在市場上,競爭規則 也有類似的作用,
Because those rules mean
它能確保貪婪和恐懼不會戰勝公平。
that companies cannot misuse their power to undermine competition.
因為那些規則意味著
Think for a moment about your car.
公司無法濫用它們的 權力來破壞競爭。
It has thousands of parts,
試想你的汽車
from the foam that makes the seats
有數以千計的零件,
to the electrical wiring to the light bulbs.
從做椅子用的泡沫材料,
And for many of those parts,
到電力線路,到燈泡都是。
the world's carmakers,
很多零件的提供,
they are dependent on only a few suppliers.
世界上的汽車製造商
So it's hardly surprising
只能仰賴少數的供應商。
that it is kind of tempting for those suppliers
所以,並不意外
to come together and fix prices.
會有某種誘因
But just imagine what that could do
讓那些供應商想要聯合定價。
to the final price of your new car in the market.
但,想像一下,這對市場上
Except, it's not imaginary.
新車的最終價格會有什麼樣的影響。
The European Commission
此外,這並非想像出來的。
has dealt with already seven different car parts cartels,
歐盟執行委員會
and we're still investigating some.
已經處理過七件不同的 汽車零件企業聯合壟斷行為,
Here, the Department of Justice
還有一些案件仍在調查中。
are also looking into the market for car parts,
而這裡的司法部
and it has called it the biggest criminal investigation
也在調查汽車零件的市場,
it has ever pursued.
而司法部說這是它們所進行過
But without competition rules,
最大的犯罪調查。
there would be no investigation,
但若沒有競爭規則,
and there would be nothing to stop this collusion from happening
就不會有調查,
and the prices of your car to go up.
就沒有什麼能夠阻止共謀的發生,
Yet it's not only companies
而你的汽車價格就會上漲。
who can undermine fair competition.
但,不只是公司
Governments can do it, too.
會破壞競爭。
And governments do that when they hand out subsidies
政府也會。
to just the favorite few, the selected.
政府分發補助金給
They may do that when they hand out subsidies --
少數幾個他們喜歡的對象。
and, of course, all financed by taxpayers --
他們發補助金的行為 就是一種不公平的競爭,
to companies.
當然,這些錢全都是由我們
That may be in the form of special tax treatments,
納稅人及公司買單。
like the tax benefits
採用的形式可能是 特別的課稅方式,
that firms like Fiat, Starbucks and Apple got
比如稅率優惠,
from some governments in Europe.
像飛雅特、星巴克、蘋果這些 公司,都有從歐洲的一些政府
Those subsidies stop companies from competing on equal terms.
得到類似這樣的利益。
They can mean that the companies that succeed,
那些補助,阻礙了公司之間的公平競爭。
well, they are the companies that got the most subsidy,
也就是說:成功的公司
the ones that are the best-connected,
會拿走大部分的補助款,
and not, as it should be,
或是擁有最好關係的公司拿走,
the companies that serve consumers the best.
而不是,雖然應該
So there are times when we need to step in
是由提供消費者 最佳服務的公司獲得補助。
to make sure that competition works the way it should.
所以有時候需要我們介入,
By doing that, we help the market to work fairly,
來確保競爭都是依照 應該的方式來運作。
because competition gives consumers the power to demand a fair deal.
透過這麼做,我們能 協助市場公平運作,
It means that companies know that if they cannot offer good prices
因為競爭給予消費者 要求公平交易的權力。
or the service that's expected,
那意味著,公司知道如果 它們無法提供好的價格
well, the customers will go somewhere else.
或是預期的服務,
And that sort of fairness is more important
那麼,消費者就會去找別家公司。
than we may sometimes realize.
那種公平性的重要程度,
Very few people think about politics all the time.
比我們所了解的還要高。
Some even skip it at election time.
很少人會隨時都在想政治。
But we are all in the market.
有些人甚至在選舉時都不會去投票。
Every day, we are in the market.
但我們都在市場裡。
And we don't want businesses to agree on prices in the back office.
每天,我們都在市場裡。
We don't want them to divide the market between them.
我們並不想要企業在背後 對價格上下其手。
We don't want one big company
我們不想要它們彼此間瓜分市場。
just to shut out competitors
我們不想要一家大公司
from ever showing us what they can do.
把其它競爭者擋在門外,
If that happens,
讓我們看不見後者能做什麼。
well, obviously, we feel that someone has cheated us,
如果那種情況發生了,
that we are being ignored or taken for granted by the market.
很明顯地,我們會覺得 有人欺騙了我們,
And that may undermine not only our trust in the market
我們被忽視了、或是被市場予取予求。
but also our trust in the society.
那可能會破壞我們對市場的信任、
In a recent survey,
也會破壞我們對社會的信任。
more than two-thirds of Europeans
在一項近期的調查中,
said that they had felt the effects of lack of competition:
超過三分之二的歐洲人
that the price for electricity was too high,
說他們感受到了 缺乏競爭所造成的效應:
that the price for the medicines they needed was too high,
電價太貴,
that they had no real choice
他們所需之藥品的價格太高,
if they wanted to travel by bus or by plane,
他們沒有辦法選擇
or they got poor service from their internet provider.
要坐巴士或是飛機旅行,
In short, they found that the market didn't treat them fairly.
或是網際網路提供者 提供給他們的服務很糟。
And that might seem like very small things,
簡言之,他們發現, 市場並沒有公平對待他們。
but they can give you this sense
那可能看起來只是件小事,
that the world isn't really fair.
但這些小事會讓你覺得
And they see the market, which was supposed to serve everyone,
世界其實並不公平。
become more like the private property of a few powerful companies.
市場本來應該是要服務 每個人的,但他們卻看到市場
The market is not the society.
變成更像是少數 強大公司的私人財產。
Our societies are, of course, much, much more than the market.
市場並不是社會。
But lack of trust in the market
當然,我們的社會遠遠超過市場。
can rub off on society
但缺乏對市場的信任,
so we lose trust in our society as well.
可能會對社會產生影響,
And it may be the most important thing we have, trust.
所以我們也會失去對社會的信任。
We can trust each other if we are treated as equals.
而我們所擁有的東西當中, 最重要的可能就是信任。
If we are all to have the same chances,
如果我們被平等對待, 我們就能信任彼此。
well, we all have to follow the same fundamental rules.
如果我們都有同樣的機會,
Of course, some people and some businesses are more successful than others,
我們都得要遵循同樣的根本規則,
but we do not trust in a society
當然,有些人或企業比 其他人或企業更成功,
if the prizes are handed out
但如果獎品在比賽開始之前
even before the contest begins.
就已經先給出去的話,
And this is where competition rules come in,
我們是不可能會相信這個社會的。
because when we make sure that markets work fairly,
這就是需要競爭規則的原因了,
then businesses compete on the merits,
因為當我們能確保市場公平運作,
and that helps to build the trust that we need as citizens
那麼企業之間就能良性競爭,
to feel comfortable and in control,
那就能夠協助建立信任, 我們公民需要這種信任
and the trust that allows our society to work.
才能感到到社會是舒服且有秩序的,
Because without trust, everything becomes harder.
這種信任也會讓 我們的社會能夠運作。
Just to live our daily lives, we need to trust in strangers,
因為,若沒有信任, 一切都會變得比較困難。
to trust the banks who keep our money,
光是日常生活, 我們就需要信任陌生人,
the builders who build our home,
信任我們存款的銀行,
the electrician who comes to fix the wiring,
信任建造我們房子的建商,
the doctor who treats us when we're ill,
信任來家裡修電路的電工,
not to mention the other drivers on the road,
信任我們生病時治療我們的醫生,
and everyone knows that they are crazy.
更不用說信任路上的其他駕駛人,
And yet, we have to trust them
人人都知道他們是很瘋狂的。
to do the right thing.
但,我們得要信任他們,
And the thing is that the more our societies grow,
信任他們會做對的事。
the more important trust becomes
重點是,我們的社會越是成長,
and the harder it is to build.
信任就變得越重要,
And that is a paradox of modern societies.
但也越難去建立信任。
And this is especially true
那就是現代社會的矛盾。
when technology changes the way that we interact.
當科技改變了我們互動的方式時,
Of course, to some degree, technology can help us
這點就更是重要。
to build trust in one another with ratings systems and other systems
當然,某種程度上, 科技可以協助我們,
that enable the sharing economy.
用實現共享經濟的 評分系統和其它系統
But technology also creates completely new challenges
來建立彼此的信任。
when they ask us not to trust in other people
但科技也創造出全新的挑戰,
but to trust in algorithms and computers.
科技要求我們不要信任其他人,
Of course, we all see and share and appreciate
而要信任演算法和電腦。
all the good that new technology can do us.
當然,我們都能看見、共享、感激
It's a lot of good.
新科技帶給我們的所有好處。
Autonomous cars can give people with disabilities new independence.
好處有很多。
It can save us all time,
自動駕駛汽車能讓殘疾者 有新的獨立性。
and it can make a much, much better use of resources.
科技能幫我們省下時間,
Algorithms that rely on crunching enormous amounts of data
科技能把資源做更好更多的利用。
can enable our doctors to give us a much better treatment,
用來分析大量資料的演算法
and many other things.
讓我們的醫生能夠 給予我們更好的治療,
But no one is going to hand over their medical data
還有很多其它的好處。
or step into a car that's driven by an algorithm
但沒有人會把他們的 醫療資料交出來,
unless they trust the companies that they are dealing with.
也沒有人會坐上一台 由演算法來駕駛的汽車,
And that trust isn't always there.
除非他們信任與 他們打交道的公司。
Today, for example, less than a quarter of Europeans
但那種信任並不是一直都存在的。
trust online businesses to protect their personal information.
比如,現今,不到四分之一的歐洲人
But what if people knew
信任線上企業會 保護他們的個人資訊。
that they could rely on technology companies
但如果人們知道
to treat them fairly?
他們能夠信賴科技公司
What if they knew that those companies
會公平對待他們呢?
respond to competition by trying to do better,
如果他們知道那些公司
by trying to serve consumers better,
面對競爭的因應方式 是把產品做得更好、
not by using their power
提供消費者更好的服務,
to shut out competitors,
而不是用它們的權力
say, by pushing their services
來阻擋競爭者,
far, far down the list of search results
比如,把它們的服務
and promoting themselves?
推到搜尋結果列表的最最最下端,
What if they knew that compliance with the rules
然後只促銷它們自己的?
was built into the algorithms by design,
如果他們知道, 在設計這些演算法的時候
that the algorithm had to go to competition rules school
就有把對於這些規則 的遵循給內建進去,
before they were ever allowed to work,
讓那些演算法必須要先 進入競爭規則學校學習,
that those algorithms were designed
然後才可以被允許開始運作,
in a way that meant that they couldn't collude,
且這些演算法被設計成
that they couldn't form their own little cartel
沒有辦法共謀,
in the black box they're working in?
讓它們無法在它們運作的黑盒子中形成
Together with regulation,
小型的聯合壟斷行為,那會如何?
competition rules can do that.
加上了規範,
They can help us to make sure
競爭規則就能做到那樣。
that new technology treats people fairly
它們能協助我們確保
and that everyone can compete on a level playing field.
新科技會公平待人,
And that can help us build the trust
讓每個人都可以在 市場上公平競爭。
that we need for real innovation
那就能協助我們建立信任,
to flourish
我們需要信任才能做真正的創新,
and for societies to develop for citizens.
才能興旺繁榮,
Because trust cannot be imposed.
社會才能進步、人民才能受惠。
It has to be earned.
因為信任不是能夠強加於人的。
Since the very first days of the European Union,
信任是掙來的。
60 years ago,
自從歐盟的最初時期,
our competition rules have helped
六十年前,
to build that trust.
我們的競爭規則一直在協助
A lot of things have changed.
建立那樣的信任。
It's hard to say what those six representatives
很多事物都改變了。
would have made of a smartphone.
很難說那六位代表
But in today's world,
會怎麼看待智慧型手機。
as well as in their world,
但在現今的世界上,
competition makes the market work for everyone.
以及在他們的世界上,
And that is why I am convinced
市場因為競爭讓所有人受益。
that real and fair competition
這就是為什麼我深信,
has a vital role to play
真正的、公平的競爭
in building the trust we need
扮演著關鍵的角色,
to get the best of our societies,
它能協助建立我們需要的信任,
and that starts with enforcing our rules,
來讓我們的社會呈現最好的一面,
actually just to make the market work for everyone.
而這一切會從強力執行 我們的規則開始,
Thank you.
讓市場能為每個人服務。
(Applause)
謝謝。
Bruno Giussani: Thank you.
(掌聲)
Thank you, Commissioner.
布魯諾吉尤薩尼:謝謝你。
Margrethe Vestager: It was a pleasure.
謝謝你,委員長。
BG: I want to ask you two questions.
瑪格蕾莎維絲塔格:是我的榮幸。
The first one is about data, because I have the impression
布魯諾:我有兩個問題想請教。
that technology and data are changing the way competition takes place
第一個問題與資料有關, 因為我的印象是
and the way competition regulation is designed and enforced.
科技和資料會改變競爭的方式
Can you maybe comment on that?
也會改變競爭的設計與執行的方式。
MV: Well, yes, it is definitely challenging us,
你能否對此發表意見?
because we both have to sharpen our tools
瑪格蕾莎:是的, 它的確在挑戰著我們,
but also to develop new tools.
因為我們得要磨礪我們的工具,
When we were going through the Google responses
也要開發新的工具。
to our statement of objection,
當我們去探究 Google 對我們提出的異議
we were going through 5.2 terabytes of data.
所做的回應,
It's quite a lot.
我們面對的是 5.2TB 的資料量。
So we had to set up new systems.
這數量很驚人。
We had to figure out how to do this,
所以我們得要建立新的系統。
because you cannot work the way you did just a few years ago.
我們得要想出如何做,
So we are definitely sharpening up our working methods.
因為幾年前的方法已經行不通了。
The other thing is that we try to distinguish
所以我們肯定得 精進我們的作業方法。
between different kinds of data,
另外一件事是,我們嘗試著
because some data is extremely valuable
區別出不同類型的資料,
and they will form, like, a barrier to entry in a market.
因為有些資料是極度珍貴的,
Other things you can just -- it loses its value tomorrow.
而它們會形成進入市場的障礙。
So we try to make sure
其它事情你可以直接…… 它明天就失去價值了。
that we never, ever underestimate the fact
所以我們試圖要確保
that data works as a currency in the market
我們永遠不會低估資料在市場中
and as an asset that can be a real barrier for competition.
以一種貨幣形式來運作的事實,
BG: Google. You fined them 2.8 billion euros a few months ago.
且資料也是種會 真正阻礙競爭的資產。
MV: No, that was dollars. It's not so strong these days.
布魯諾:幾個月前, 你們對 Google 開罰 28 億歐元。
BG: Ah, well, depends on the --
瑪格蕾莎:不,是美元。 現在它已經不那麼強勢了。
(Laughter)
布魯諾:啊,嗯,那就要看…
Google appealed the case. The case is going to court.
(笑聲)
It will last a while.
Google 對這案子提出上訴, 接下來會上法庭。
Earlier, last year, you asked Apple to pay 13 billion in back taxes,
它會持續一段時間。
and you have also investigated other companies,
先前,去年,你要求蘋果 補繳 130 億元的稅款,
including European and Russian companies,
你也調查了其它公司,
not only American companies, by far.
包括歐洲和俄國公司,
Yet the investigations against the American companies
顯然不只是美國公司。
are the ones that have attracted the most attention
但,針對美國公司的調查
and they have also attracted some accusations.
是最吸引注意力的調查,
You have been accused, essentially, of protectionism, of jealousy,
也是吸引最多控訴的調查。
or using legislation to hit back at American companies
你曾被指控,基本上, 是個保護主義者、善妒忌、
that have conquered European markets.
或是立法來打擊那些
"The Economist" just this week on the front page writes,
征服歐洲市場的美國公司。
"Vestager Versus The Valley."
《經濟人》這週的頭版寫著:
How do you react to that?
「維絲塔格摃上矽谷」。
MV: Well, first of all, I take it very seriously,
妳的回應是什麼?
because bias has no room in law enforcement.
瑪格蕾莎:首先, 我很嚴肅看待此事,
We have to prove our cases with the evidence and the facts
因為在執法上是不容許偏見的。
and the jurisprudence
我們必須要用證據、事實、法庭判例
in order also to present it to the courts.
來證明我們的案件,
The second thing is that Europe is open for business,
才能夠在法庭上提出來。
but not for tax evasion.
第二點,歐洲是 開放給大家做生意的,
(Applause)
但不是給大家逃稅用的。
The thing is that we are changing,
(掌聲)
and for instance, when I ask my daughters --
重點是,我們在改變,
they use Google as well --
比如,當我問我的女兒們──
"Why do you do that?"
她們也用 Google──
They say, "Well, because it works. It's a very good product."
「妳們為什麼要用 Google ?」
They would never, ever, come up with the answer,
她們說:「因為它好用。 它是很好的產品。」
"It's because it's a US product."
她們永遠不會回答說:
It's just because it works.
「因為它是美國產品。」
And that is of course how it should be.
只是因為它好用。
But just the same, it is important that someone is looking after to say,
當然,也應該要這樣才對。
"Well, we congratulate you
但,同樣重要的是, 會有監管的人說:
while you grow and grow and grow,
「嗯,我們恭喜你,
but congratulation stops
恭喜你不斷成長再成長。
if we find that you're misusing your position
但我們會停止恭喜,
to harm competitors so that they cannot serve consumers."
如果發現了你濫用優勢
BG: It will be a fascinating case to follow.
去傷害競爭者,
Thank you for coming to TED.
讓他們無法服務消費者。」
MV: It was a pleasure. Thanks a lot.
布魯諾:這個案件很值得追蹤後續。
(Applause)
謝謝你來 TED。