I was 25 at the time,

八年前，我曾被惡靈糾纏。

and I was living in a tiny house behind someone else's house

當時我 25 歲，

in Los Angeles.

住在別人房子後面的一個小房子裡，

It was this guest house, it had kind of been dilapidated,

在洛杉磯。

not taken care of for a long time.

就是這一間殘破不堪的客房，

And one night, I was sitting there

已經很長時間不曾被打理。

and I got this really spooky feeling,

一天晚上，我坐在那裡，

kind of the feeling like you're being watched.

突然有一股毛骨悚然的感覺。

But no one was there except my two dogs,

就好比有人在某處觀察你。

and they were just chewing their feet.

但是除了我的兩隻狗以外， 沒有人在周圍，

And I looked around. No one was there.

而且牠們當時在舔舐自己的腳。

And I thought, OK, it's just my imagination.

我四處張望了一下，沒有任何人。

But the feeling just kept getting worse,

於是我想，好吧，這只是我的幻想。

and I started to feel this pressure in my chest,

但是那種感覺越來越強烈，

sort of like the feeling when you get bad news.

我開始感覺到胸部的壓迫感，

But it started to sink lower and lower

就像是你聽到壞消息的感覺。

and almost hurt.

那種壓迫感漸漸遍佈全身，

And over the course of that week, this feeling got worse and worse,

幾乎有種受傷的感覺，

and I started to become convinced that something was there

在那一週裡，這種感覺不斷惡化，

in my little guest house, haunting me.

於是我開始確信有「東西」在那裡，

And I started to hear these sounds,

在我的小客房裡面，纏著我。

this "whoosh," kind of whisper, like something passing through me.

我開始聽到一些聲音，

I called my best friend, Claire, and said,

像是某種東西穿過我，嘶嘶低語。

"I know this is going to sound crazy,

我打電話給最要好的朋友克萊爾，說：

but, um ...

「我知道這聽起來很不可思議。

I think there's a ghost in my house, and I need to get rid of it."

但是，嗯......

And she said -- she's very open-minded -- and she said,

我覺得我家鬧鬼了，需要處理掉它。」

"I don't think you're crazy.

她的思想開明，回答說：

I think you just need to do a cleansing ritual."

「我不覺得你瘋了。

(Laughter)

我覺得你只需要個驅邪的儀式。」

"So get some sage and burn it,

（笑聲）

and tell it to go away."

「去買一些鼠尾草來燒，

So I said, "OK," and I went and I bought sage.

叫它滾開。」

I had never done this before, so I set the sage on fire,

於是我說：「好的。」 然後我去買了一些鼠尾草。

waved it about, and said, "Go away! This is my house! I live here.

我未曾這樣做過，點燃了鼠尾草，

You don't live here!"

並四處揮舞著說：「快滾開！

But the feeling stayed. Nothing got better.

這是我的家！我住在這裡。 你不住這裡！」

And then I started to think,

但是那種詭異的感覺仍在， 事情並沒好轉。

OK, well now this thing is probably just laughing at me,

於是我開始思考，

because it hasn't left,

好吧，也許這東西現在正在嘲笑我，

and I probably just look like this impotent, powerless thing

因為它並沒有離去，

that couldn't get it to go away.

而且我無能為力、失去力氣，

So every day I'd come home

無法叫它離開。

and you guys, this feeling got so bad that -- I mean, I'm laughing at it now --

所以每天我回到家，

but I would sit there in bed and cry every night.

你們知道嗎？這感覺真的很糟──

And the feeling on my chest got worse and worse.

意思是，雖然我現在能笑著說這件事，

It was physically painful.

但我當時卻是每晚都坐在床上哭。

And I even went to a psychiatrist

我胸口感覺越來越糟。

and tried to get her to prescribe me medicine,

這是一種身體上的痛苦。

and she wouldn't just because I don't have schizophrenia, OK.

我甚至去看了心理醫生，

(Laughter)

試著說服她開藥給我，

So finally I got on the internet, and I Googled "hauntings."

她當然不會開藥給我， 因為我沒精神病。

And I came upon this forum of ghost hunters.

啊，好吧。

But these were a special kind of ghost hunters --

（笑聲）

they were skeptics.

最後，我上網搜尋「鬧鬼」。

They believed that every case of ghosts that they had investigated so far

然後我找到了一個集結了驅魔師的論壇。

had been explained away by science.

但是有這麼一類特別的驅魔師──

And I was like, "OK, smart guys, this is what's happening to me,

他們是懷疑論者。

and if you have an explanation for me, I would love to hear it."

他們相信目前為止他們所 調查的所有與鬼相關的案件中，

And one of them said, "OK.

都可以被科學解釋。

Um, have you heard of carbon monoxide poisoning?"

我說：「好吧，聰明的人們， 這是發生在我身上的事情。

And I said, "Yeah.

如果你們能解釋，我會很樂意聆聽。」

Like, gas poisoning?"

他們其中一人說：

Carbon monoxide poisoning is when you have a gas leak

「好。你聽過一氧化碳中毒嗎？」

leaking into your home.

我說：「嗯，有啊。」

I looked it up, and the symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning

「像是瓦斯中毒？」

include a pressure on your chest,

一氧化碳中毒是瓦斯外洩到你的家中，

auditory hallucinations -- whoosh --

我查閱一氧化碳中毒的症狀，包括：

and an unexplained feeling of dread.

胸口感受到壓力，

So that night, I called the gas company.

耳朵幻聽嘶嘶的聲音，

I said, "I have an emergency. I need you to come out.

還有無法解釋的恐懼感。

I don't want to get into the story now, but I need you to come out."

所以那個晚上我打電話給瓦斯公司。

(Laughter)

我說：「事態緊急， 我需要你們馬上出現！」

They came out. I said, "I suspect a gas leak."

「我現在不想解釋什麽， 但我需要你們馬上出現。」

They brought their carbon monoxide detector,

(笑聲)

and the man said,

他們出現後，我說： 「我懷疑我家瓦斯外洩。」

"It's a really good thing that you called us tonight,

他們拿出一氧化碳偵測器，然後說：

because you could have been dead very soon."

「你今晚打電話給我們真是做對了， 要不然你很快就會死了。」

Thirty-seven percent of Americans believe in haunted houses,

37% 的美國人相信凶宅，

and I wonder how many of them have been in one

而我懷疑他們之中 有多少人真的住過凶宅，

and how many of them have been in danger.

又有多少人真的遭遇過危險。

So that haunting story has led me to my job.

這個關於惡靈的故事 讓我從事了我的工作。

I'm an investigator, and I'm an investigator in two senses:

我是個調查員， 調查的內容涉及兩塊：

I'm an investigative journalist,

我是一個調查記者，

and I'm also an investigator of the claims of the paranormal

同時我也研究那些 「超自然現象」和「靈魂」的宣稱。

and claims of the spiritual.

這代表了一些事情，

And that means a few things.

有時候這代表 我必須假裝有驅魔的需求，

Sometimes that means that I'm pretending to need an exorcism

然後我可以找個……對，就是這樣， 我可以去找一個驅魔師，

so I can get -- yes, that's right! -- so I can go to an exorcist

然後觀察他是不是 在耍花招或玩心理遊戲，

and see if he's using gimmicks or psychological tricks

來使別人相信他們真的中邪了。

to try to convince someone that they're possessed.

這也代表著身為和別人合作的播客，

Sometimes that means I'm going undercover in a fringe group

有時候我得偷偷混進 我做報告的邊緣團體。

which I report on for a podcast that I co-host.

我和我的夥伴蘿絲也已經 做了超過 70 次像這樣的調查。

And I've done over 70 investigations like this with my co-host, Ross.

我很想告訴你 十次有九次是科學勝出，

I would love to tell you that nine times out of 10, science wins,

科學救了大家，解釋了這一切。

saves the day, it's all explained.

但情況不是這樣。

That's not true.

事實上十次中有十次 科學贏了，救了大家。

The truth is, 10 times out of 10, science wins, it saves the day.

(掌聲)

(Applause)

但這並不代表謎團不存在。

And that doesn't mean there's no such thing as a mystery.

當然還是有謎團，

Of course there are mysteries, but a mystery is a mystery.

但謎團就是謎團，

It is not a ghost.

並不是鬼。

Now, I believe there are two kinds of truth,

我認為有兩種真相，

and it's taken me a while to get to this place, but I think this is right,

花了一些時間我才想通，

so hear me out.

我認為應該就是這樣，

I think there is outer truth and there's inner truth.

所以請耐心聽我說。

So if you say to me,

我認為有「外在真相」和「內在真相」。

"There was a man named Jesus and he once existed,"

如果你告訴我：

that's outer truth, right?

「曾經有個名叫耶穌的人。」

And we can go and look at the historical record.

這是外在真相，對吧？

We can determine whether that seems to be true.

我們查看歷史紀錄

And I would argue, it does seem to be true.

就可判斷是否屬實。

If you say, "Jesus rose from the dead," -- ooh, trickier.

而我會說，的確看似是個事實。

(Laughter)

如果你說：「耶穌從死裡復生。」

I would say that's an outer-truth claim,

噢，那就有點棘手了。

because he physically rose or he didn't.

(笑聲)

I'm not going to get into whether he rose or he didn't,

我會說那是個外在真相的主張，

but I would say that's an outer-truth claim.

要不祂復活了，要不祂沒復活。

It happened or it didn't happen.

我並不是要探討祂到底復活了沒有。

But if you say, "I don't care whether he rose from the dead.

而是說：這是個外在真相的主張，

It's symbolically important to me,

不論祂到底復活了沒有。

and that metaphor is so meaningful, so purposeful to me,

但是，如果你說的是： 「我不管祂是不是從死裡復活，

and I'm not going to try to persuade you of it,"

這象徵對我很重要，

now you've moved it from outer truth to inner truth,

這隱喻非常有意義、意味很深遠，

from science to art.

而我也沒想要說服你。」

And I think we have a tendency to not be clear about this,

你就已經轉外在真相為內在真相，

to try to move our inner truths to outer truths,

轉科學為藝術。

or to not be fair about it to each other,

我認為我們傾向於模糊兩者間的界線，

and when people are telling us their inner truths,

傾向於把內在真相變成外在真相，

to try to make them defend them by outer-truth standards.

或者，傾向於不平等地看待兩者，

So I'm talking here about outer truth, about objective things.

以致當人們告訴我們他們的內在真相時，

And there was an objective reality in my haunted house, right?

我們會試著叫他們用外在真相的準則 來為自己的內在真相辯護。

Now that I've told you about the gas leak,

我在此討論的是外在真相， 是客觀的事物。

I doubt a single person here would be like,

我的鬼屋有客觀的現實，對吧？

"I still think there was a ghost, too" --

我已經說過是瓦斯外洩了，

(Laughter)

在座應該不會有人說： 「我仍然認為那裡頭有鬼。」

because as soon as we have these scientific explanations,

(笑聲)

we know to give up the ghost.

因為一旦我們有了科學的解釋，

We use these things as stopgaps for things that we can't explain.

就知道該放棄這些「鬼話」了。

We don't believe them because of evidence;

我們用這些想法來暫時解決 我們所無法解釋的事情，

we believe them because of a lack of evidence.

有了事實證據，我們不再相信「鬼話」；

So there is a group in Los Angeles

只因為缺少證據才相信它。

called the Independent Investigations Group, or the IIG,

在洛杉磯有個團體，

and they do great work.

叫做獨立調查組織，英文簡稱 IIG，

They'll give a $10,000 prize

他們做了很棒的工作。

to anyone who can show, under scientific conditions,

他們提供一萬元美金的獎賞，

that they have a paranormal ability.

給任何可以在科學佐證下，

No one's done it yet,

展現他們超自然能力的人。

but they've had a couple people who claim that they were clairaudients,

目前為止還沒有人獲得奬金，

which means that they can hear voices either from the great beyond

但他們遇到過幾個 聲稱自己有順風耳的人，

or they can read minds.

也就是說，他們能聽到 來自極遠之處的聲音，

And they had one person who was very sincere,

或是能讀心。

who believed that he could read minds.

他們有個很誠實、 相信自己能讀心的人。

So they set up a test with him, and this is the way it always works.

他們安排測試他，

The group says, "OK, we have a protocol,

事情的發展總是下面這樣。

we have a way to scientifically test this.

這團體說：「好！ 我們有份科學實驗計劃，

Do you agree with it?"

可以用科學方法驗證你的能力。

The person says yes. Then they test it.

你同意嗎？」

It's very important that both sides agree.

那個人說好，然後他們開始測試。

They did that, they tested him.

雙方都同意是非常重要的。

They said, "OK, you know what?

同意了，他們開始測試他。

You weren't able to predict what Lisa was thinking.

他們說：「好，你知道嗎？

It matched up about the same as chance.

你未能預測麗莎在想什麼。

Looks like you don't have the power."

這只是偶然的吻合。

And that gave them the opportunity

似乎你並沒有超能力。」

to compassionately sit down with him and have a very difficult discussion,

這賦予他們一個機會，

which basically amounted to,

懷抱著同理心，和他坐下來， 進行艱難的討論。

"Hey, we know you're sincere, and what that means is,

基本上等同於，

you do hear something in your head."

「嘿！我們知道你的真誠，

And that guy got to make the very difficult decision,

意思是，

but really the life-changing decision about whether to go get help.

你的確在自己的腦海裡 聽到了一些聲音。」

We're actually helping people to make these connections

那個人需要做個艱難的決定，

that maybe before seemed like otherworldly explanations,

會改變命運的決定，

help draw us into reality and maybe change our lives for the better.

決定是否要尋求協助。

Now, on the other hand, maybe one time it'll turn out to be true.

事實上我們是在幫助人們 將一些事情連起來，

Maybe we'll find out there are ghosts,

將一些以前會用 「有另一個世界」來解釋的事

and holy shit, it will be the best thing!

拉回到現實層面，

And every time I do one of these investigations,

而這或許可以讓我們的生活更美好。

I still get so excited,

另一方面，

and I'm like 75 into them,

或許哪天鬼會變成事實。

and still I swear on number 76, I'm going to be like, "This is the one!"

或許我們會發現這世上真的有鬼。

(Laughter)

真糟糕！這將會是最棒的事情！

Maybe I'm just eternally optimistic, but I hope I never lose this hope,

每當我進行有關這方面的調查時，

and I invite you to take this same attitude

我還是會非常興奮，

when people share their outer beliefs with you.

就算經歷過 75 件這樣的事，

When talking about testable claims,

但我發誓，在碰到第 76 件 這樣的事情時，

respect them enough to ask these good questions.

我會說：「肯定就是它了！」

Challenge and see how you can examine them together,

(笑聲)

because there's this idea that you can't respect a belief

或許我只是個永遠樂觀的人，

and still challenge it, but that's not true.

但願我永不放棄這樣的希望，

When we jiggle the lock, when we test the claim,

我鼓勵你也抱着同樣的態度。

we're saying, OK, I respect you, I'm listening to what you're saying,

在別人和你分享他們的外在信念時。

I'm going to test it out with you.

當談及可以被驗證的說法時，

We've all had that experience where you're telling someone something,

尊重他們，提出好的問題，

and they're like, "Oh, that's really interesting, yeah,"

質疑，並一起看看 你們如何能共同驗證它。

you know you're being had.

有這麼一個說法，認為

But when someone says, "Really? Huh.

「不能質疑你所尊重的信念」，

Sounds a little sketchy to me, but I'm listening,"

這是不對的。

you at least know you're being engaged and respected.

當我們轉動鎖、檢視那些主張時，

And that's the kind of attitude we should have with these claims.

我們會說：「好，我尊重你，我聽你說，

That's showing someone that you care what they're saying.

我將會和你一起驗證。」

That's respect.

我們都有這樣的經驗， 當你在告訴某人某些事情時，

Now, yes, most of these searches will come up empty,

他們會說：「喔，真有趣，對耶。」

but that's how all of science works.

你就知道你被耍了。

Every cure for cancer so far has not panned out,

但當他們說：「真的嗎？嗯？」

but we don't stop looking,

「這聽起來有點陌生，不過我正在聽。」

for two reasons.

至少你知道， 你正與他交流並且受到尊重。

Because number one, the answer matters.

面對他人的看法， 這就是我們應該表現的態度。

Whether it's looking at the afterlife or the paranormal or the cure for cancer,

表現出你重視別人在說什麼。

it all amounts to the same question:

這是尊重。

How long will we be here?

沒錯，多數的調查都沒什麼結果，

And two, because looking for the truth,

但所有的科學運作就是如此。

being open-minded,

到目前為止，尚未淘汰 每一種癌症的治療法，

and being willing to be wrong and to change your whole worldview

但我們並沒有停止追尋。

is awe-inspiring.

這有兩個原因。

I still get excited at ghost stories every single time.

第一，答案很重要。

I still consider that every group I join might be right,

不管我們探索的是死後的生命、 超自然現象，或癌症的治法，

and I hope I never lose that hope.

全都指向一個共同的問題：

Let's all never lose that hope,

我們有多少時間？

because searching for what's out there

第二，因為探尋事實，

helps us understand what's in here.

敞開心胸，

And also, please have a carbon monoxide detector in your home.

樂於犯錯，且願意改變你的世界觀，

Thank you.

是令人振奮的。

(Applause)

每次聽到有關鬼的故事 我還是非常興奮。