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  • Aaron: Hey guys, welcome to Phlearn. My name is Aaron Nace. You can find me on Twitter

  • @aknacer. Welcome to part 2 of our talks here with international badass product photographer

  • … Rob: You forgot rockstaresque.

  • Aaron: Rockstaresque, Rob Grimm. You can catch him on Twitter @rggphoto. Robb is based out

  • of St. Louis originally? Rob: Originally St. Louis and I've recently

  • opened up a Chicago studio. Aaron: Built your Chicago studio, so you'll

  • be right down the street from our new studio. Rob: Which is great. We're going to be neighbors

  • and yes, I'm really excited about it. It's been great so far. We opened up last summer

  • and it's a studio just for me, so I bounce back and forth between the two cities and

  • it's really phenomenal so far. Aaron: Awesome. Well, welcome to Chicago and…

  • Rob: It's actually welcome back. I lived in Chicago after graduating college and that's

  • where I got my first start in the photography business.

  • Aaron: That's where you got into product photography? Rob: No, actually back then I was working

  • with a couple of different people. Saden Photo Group, which is now long gone. Abbey Saden,

  • and Ben Altman, and a couple other people, and Jack Peron. Is that guys still around?

  • Aaron: I think Jack is, yes. Rob: I think he is, too. He was a really good

  • fashion photographer way back when. I started doing some internships and assisting around

  • those studios and that's where I got my foray into the business.

  • Aaron: Cool. Welcome back then. Rob: It's nice to be back in Chicago, it's

  • home. Aaron: Cool city.

  • Rob: Great city. Aaron: We're going through your book now.

  • Rob: All right, let's do it. Aaron: A lot of really great images here and

  • we were just talking about the difference between a book versus digital. Like, bringing

  • an iPad to show people as opposed to a physical book. Let's just touch on that first, just

  • a minute or so before we go ahead and get into it.

  • Rob: Sure. Aaron: What do you think the impact is? The

  • difference? Rob: Well, one's reflective versus luminous

  • and that has a very different quality on the eye. iPads are amazing. That backlit LCD screen

  • coming at you, now the retina display, it's just amazing. The colors are so vibrant and

  • they're luminous and they're just incredible and the technology is something that a lot

  • of people are obviously gravitating towards. Particularly guys your age, you're very well

  • versed with all things electronic and digital, so for you it's totally second nature to flip

  • through an iPad, to look into the different galleries and you can have so many more images

  • in an iPad portfolio than you can in a printed book.

  • Printed books take time, they take a lot of money, you got to assemble them, you're pretty

  • much locked into them once you've printed them, so it's much harder to make changes.

  • With an iPad, you can go back and forth very quickly. You can remove something and add

  • something, you can make an extensive number of galleries, so the iPad has a lot of great

  • features about it. The book does, too. Have a printed book is really interesting. We walk

  • into every portfolio showing with both, printed and iPad.

  • Aaron: You do? Rob: Oh, yes absolutely. First of all, when

  • you go into an ad agency, there's usually multiple people that are looking at your book.

  • Aaron: Right. Rob: Unless you go in with a bunch of printed

  • books, you're going to have an issue. You can go in with a couple of iPads and a printed

  • book and then people can spread out. One thing I try to do is I try to sit with the book,

  • the actually printed book because that's the time where people are most engaged. As they're

  • going through it, there's something about being physical with it and tactile, where

  • they can touch it, and flip the pages, and they can feel the paper, and they look at

  • the reflected image, and they're drawn into it. They want to know more stories. They ask

  • me more about the behind the scenes and about how did this image come to life when they

  • are looking at the printed book than they do when they're looking at the iPad, without

  • question. Aaron: Really?

  • Rob: Yes, it's interesting. Now, the iPad is great though. When you have multiple people

  • coming in, two people can look at it, they can go through it, they can hand it to the

  • next guy, and it's good for that room setting, but this is where, I think, we still really

  • get to engage with the prospective clients. Aaron: Yes, it's real.

  • Rob: Yes, it is. Aaron: It has that real quality to it that

  • it's not just … it's interesting because the iPad, it is really great to show work,

  • but it's … you go from emails to Twitter to your portfolio and this is nothing but

  • your portfolio. Rob: I was talking before; it's a mix of different

  • marketing approaches. Same thing here. It's good to have the mix of your website, a portfolio

  • that lives on an iPad, and a printed honest-to-God book that people can flip through. Back before

  • digital came about, we had to make 10 copies of these and you had to have them all cataloged,

  • know where they were because in an ad agency would call and you'd FedEx it to them and

  • they'd have it for a week, and somebody else would call and you'd have to FedEx it, too.

  • You could have books all over the place. Aaron: Floating around?

  • Rob: Even locally in town. You'd have three or four floating around different ad agencies.

  • That's expensive. You had to know where it was. Now, it's great that it's online. People

  • can get that flavor for you, they can know what your work is like, they can easily and

  • quickly send your website or a portfolio PDF. I use portfolio PDFs all the time.
Aaron:

  • Okay. Rob: This book, this exact book is in PDF

  • format and I send it to clients with great regularity. Then, when they want this this

  • can be shipped in. Aaron: Perfect. That's kind of like the … gets

  • their appetite a little bit wet and when they bite, you can send this?

  • Rob: Yes, absolutely. Aaron: On their way.

  • Rob: This is a good hook. Aaron: A good hook, there we go, so a printed

  • portfolio is a good hook? Rob: Yes.

  • Aaron: Yes, it's gorgeous. You went with a somewhat frosted plastic at the front?

  • Rob: Yes, this is actually from Lost Luggage. It's one of the ones that they make.

  • Aaron: Oh, really? Rob: You can buy off the shelf, which is good.

  • I did have a completely custom book before. Actually, the guy who owned this building

  • before me was a bookbinder and I had him make my portfolios, which is how I found this building

  • in the first place. Aaron: Nice.

  • Rob: Kind of cool. Aaron: Yes, very cool story.

  • Rob: Those kinds of things are gone now. It's much easier to buy them. There's so many companies

  • that make portfolios. They're very specific and…

  • Aaron: They do a great job. Rob: They do a great job. They can customize

  • it quickly and get it to you where it's not… I hate to say, like a six month process? But

  • I think back then designing a portfolio, looking at comps, looking at mock-ups, seeing the

  • first one actually being made … Aaron: Wow.

  • Rob: Then, going through the rest of it. It could be six months before you have a portfolio.

  • Aaron: Wow. Rob: It's a lot of time.

  • Aaron: Your work can completely change over six months.

  • Rob: Yes, it can. Particularly now. Aaron: Yes, now it can anyway.

  • Rob: Particularly now, yes. Aaron: Yes, good point.

  • Rob: Let's talk about it. Aaron: Yes, the printing you do in house,

  • right? Rob: Yes, we've done this here. You cannot

  • undersell Epson technology. The Epson printer … digital photography changed this market

  • completely, so did the Epson. When Epson came out … and Canon and HP, there are a lot

  • of great printers out, but Epson really changed the game. Before we were looking at sending

  • all of our books out or we were looking at technology called di-sublimation, which I

  • don't even think exists anymore, really expensive printers in the studio. Now, we can print

  • this on a $1000.00 machine. It looks amazing. It's better than offset in some ways. It's

  • just amazing ink quality and you can do full bleeds. Why not do it here? It's fantastic.

  • Aaron: You're not getting paid by Epson to say that are you?

  • Rob: No, I'm not and it's not just Epson. Canon printers do the same thing, HP, there

  • are quite a few different printers that will handle this pro line and it's incredible.

  • Aaron: Almost every professional photographer I've talked to, who prints their own work,

  • they all print on Epson. Rob: Epson did come out with that technology

  • that changed the game and there's no question. You can proof in the studio before we would

  • have to send out for Kodak proofs or approved proofs that you can send to clients to make

  • sure that it was color matching and that everything was right. You can actually do that in studio

  • now. We hardly do proofs anymore, every once in awhile, but when that transition first

  • happened, it was great to be able to make the proofs in the studio. It saved you time,

  • you were able to charge for it, full game changer. Epson really ... they deserve accolade

  • because they changed the game. Aaron: Good job Epson, I know you're watching

  • us. Rob: You better be watching us.

  • Aaron: The president of Epson, John Epson. John Epson?

  • Rob: It's actually Phillip Epson. Aaron: Oh, Phillip Epson. Well, congratulations

  • Phillip. Your book is awesome. I obviously love your photography. I wouldn't be here

  • if I didn't. Rob: Thank you.

  • Aaron: Of course. I want to talk about a lot of these images, but there are a few that

  • I'm going to focus on and we'll put those on the screen, as well. Let's go ahead and

  • start from the back to the front. We're going to start with this image.

  • Rob: Yes, that image is probably one of the most difficult if not the most difficult job

  • I've done in years. That was for a company called Yogurtland and it's a soft-serve ice

  • cream company very similar to Pinkberry, so the creative on this was to have the idea

  • that everything was swirling from the sky and plopping into your bowl, any ingredient

  • you want it was all there for your taking. This was tough because soft-serve is soft.

  • Aaron: That was my nickname in high school. Rob: That was a tough high school at the time,

  • I bet. Soft-serve is never hard, so getting it to cascade and hold in this shape is impossible

  • and it squirted out of a machine. It's not like I could just pony up my camera to the

  • machine, all the lights and get exactly what I wanted and get it to come out in a swirl.

  • This took a lot of time. First and foremost, I hired a Nir Adar, who is an amazing food

  • stylist. He's known for his ice cream. In fact, if you're going to shoot ice cream,

  • he's the only guy that I would turn to. He's out of New York and he's a terrific guy. He

  • and I talked about this in the production stage. How can we execute this? Quite frankly,

  • we didn't know yet. We had ideas, but we spent a day and a half just testing. He came to

  • St. Louis before the shoot two days ahead and we tried one thing after the next. All

  • the machines were brought in and those soft-serve machines are huge.

  • Aaron: Giant, yes. Rob: They weight a thousand pounds and I think

  • the delivery guys were going to herniate on the stairs as they were trying to lift these

  • things up. We didn't exactly have the pathway to it, so it was a lot of trial and error.

  • We got to a point to where we figured out … we basically had to use tubing that we

  • could cut along the slide through packed with dry ice, very fine dry ice that an assistant

  • food stylist sat and ran through a food processor. Aaron: Wow.

  • Rob: Powdered. Basically turned to powder, so the tube was packed with that. Nir did

  • this magical twirl with the soft-serve. It was all placed into a huge cooler of very

  • finely powdered dry ice so it could freeze without damaging the texture because the other

  • thing that's a killer about this soft-serve, since it's soft you can't just set it down.
Aaron:

  • Right. Rob: You can't put it in a freezer without

  • damaging it and with the nature of this being swirled, we had to see the front, we had to

  • see the sides for transitions and we had to see the inside back. Really, every element

  • of this had to be photographed without messing it up, so it was a bear.

  • Aaron: It was a nightmare. Rob: It was a huge challenge. It's not a nightmare,

  • it's a challenge and that's what's cool about it because we got to experiment for a day

  • and a half before we were like, "Bam! We hit it." We tried four or five different things

  • and they didn't work, they were based on very solid ideas and experience from previous shoots,

  • but it's fun. That's actually really fun if you can experiment and come up with a new

  • way. We got it to the point where we figured out how we could freeze these things and then

  • take them out on set and literally remove that tube from this swirl of yogurt and hold

  • it on set and get my captures before it died. We just did it over and over and over. What's

  • interesting about this, we've only got two shots that make up the swirls coming down

  • and then another shot for the bowl. That's done in three shots.

  • Aaron: Okay. Rob: Then all of the fruit that was there,

  • was all hung on wires, shot individually on a background and all that was clipped out

  • and brought in individually. This thing probably took a week in a computer to make it what

  • it is, but we shot everything in different pieces. This was a major, major trial and

  • error, figure it out, make it work, I'm not sure how we're going to do it, but let's figure

  • it out. Aaron: Yes.

  • Rob: It's a great project. Aaron: The end result is awesome.

  • Rob: This gets a lot of attention and everybody stops and goes, "Man, how did you do that?"

  • Aaron: How did you do that? Rob: First of all, you hire the right people.

  • Aaron: Right. Rob: You test, you scratch your head, you

  • figure it out, you go down different avenues until it hits. It's good.

  • Aaron: Yes. Knowing that it's real, you actually did it, really makes it sell that much more.

  • Rob: Here's the thing, I think you have to do it that way. It's really important to show

  • the client's product. You could do this with a fake, you could have an acrylic model made,

  • it would be a lot easier, you could light the whole thing, but it's an acrylic model.

  • At the end of the day, even with retouching, it's still going to have that quality. It'll

  • be a little too plastic. Here, you can see texture in this. You know that it's real,

  • it's not this plasticized thing and that's really important.

  • A lot of clients are very conscious about that for legal issue, too, because somebody

  • … one of the things that we have to walk a very fine line with is being hyper-real.

  • We call it truth in advertising where we want to make something entice you. You've got to

  • want that, you've got to want it to the point where you're going to run out and buy it again,

  • and again, and again. We're going to make it look as good as possible.

  • Aaron: Better than it would in your hand? Rob: Better than in real life.

  • Aaron: Yes. Rob: But you have to be careful because it's

  • … people go and they say, "Well, this doesn't look at all like it did in the ad." They throw

  • it back and run. It's important to use the real product to be able to say legally, "No,

  • that is our product." It's not that we put completely fake stuff in it, it's all food

  • coloring or whatever. You want to use the real stuff as much as humanly possible.
Aaron:

  • Has that changed? I remember years ago people say that when they photograph ice cream, it's

  • really mashed potatoes? Rob: Mashed potatoes or Crisco with food coloring.

  • Aaron: Okay. Rob: Crisco, powdered sugar and lots of food

  • coloring, that was the magic combination, but keep in mind, that was back in the day

  • when you had to shoot on film, right? Aaron: Right.

  • Rob: You couldn't scoop and put it out there and grab it.

  • Aaron: Right away? Rob: No. It would die very quickly and a lot

  • of time we were using hot lights, not the strobes, so there were a lot of issues in

  • with it. Now, that you're digital … when digital photography came into being, the shift

  • in food photography happened, as well, because it went to the more editorial style where

  • it's real food. It's not over analyzed, it's not plastic or an acrylic model, it's not

  • mashed potatoes. Sometimes that stuff is still in there and I don't want to fake it and say

  • it's not because like when we shoot cereal, the bowl is still with mashed potatoes at

  • the bottom then all the little pieces of cereal are put in the mashed potatoes so they stay.

  • Aaron: Oh, no way and then you pour a little bit of milk over the top?

  • Rob: Or something that looks like milk. Yes. Aaron: Yet to be named.

  • Rob: Right yes, yet to be named. I won't let that secret out yet, but milk will absorb

  • very quickly into the cereal. Aaron: Right.

  • Rob: It makes it soggy and it caputs it, so it's dead. If you were just to pour milk in

  • a bowl of cereal, stuff would be floating and moving and going all over the place and

  • wouldn't necessarily look good. Aaron: Right.

  • Rob: There is a placement that happens with these things. There's still some smoke and

  • mirrors. Let not … Aaron: That's interesting. When we first met,

  • you talked about photography … let's flip to a bottle of Budweiser, I think we've got

  • in here or Bud Light. Rob: Yes.

  • Aaron: You said, "You think all those water droplets on there are real?"

  • Rob: Are real? Yes. Aaron: Tell us about these.

  • Rob: Yes, they're not real. This is done in a very methodical way. To get the light to

  • come through the bottle, and have it look refreshing, and iced, and all that kind of

  • stuff, that just doesn't happen. You don't pull this out of the fridge because it's been

  • really cold, and stick it on set, and wait a few minutes, and it looks like this. This,

  • we actually do by hand. All those drops are put on by hand. The ice chips are put on by

  • hand and it's using special effects stuff. What looks like ice is actually … it's very

  • similar stuff that's in a diaper. If you've ever seen a diaper explode, they're these

  • little tiny beads, they're these little crystals of clear and they hold five times their own

  • weight in water, so they puff up. Aaron: Very interesting.

  • Rob: This is what they look like. I literally take a paintbrush … I have a tub of this

  • that I mix up. I'll show you guys this later. I paint it on. I paint it on the edges of

  • the bottle; I paint it where I want it. I'm being very conscious now not to have too much

  • of it over the label because I don't want to obstruct the view. It will tend to warp

  • lines and things that are underneath it, so I don't want to cover a client's logo up with

  • an ice chunk that's going to make it look funky. All this stuff is placed on there.

  • The droplets is a mix of glycerin and water and sometimes other photographers use different

  • tricks. There's stuff called drop effect and it's sprayed out through a variety of different

  • sprayer to give it that randomized feel, so it's not all the same sized droplets, they're

  • different, they're spontaneous, but at the same time, this is planned. One of the things

  • that I talk about that we do a lot in photography is forced spontaneity. We make something look

  • casual, we make it look like it just happened, we make it look like it's going to happen

  • at your house, but there's a lot of planning and forethought that goes into it to make

  • it look like that. Aaron: Right.

  • Rob: Forced spontaneity. Aaron: Very cool.

  • Rob: I like that term. Aaron: Just the realization that you hand

  • placed these droplets, it's insane. Rob: This is another area for a photographer

  • where you can set yourself apart. You can hire a food stylist to do this if you want

  • and there are drink stylist that will go in and they'll style this stuff for you. A lot

  • of photographers, including myself, will style beer bottles themselves. It's part of our

  • style. Aaron: It's part of who you … yes. You can

  • identify who took what photo based on how they style?

  • Rob: Yes, I can tell what bottles some of my competitors did, not by the lighting, but

  • by the style of the spritz and slush that's on the bottle.

  • Aaron: The slush styling. Rob: Yes.

  • Aaron: Put that on your business card. Slush stylist.

  • Rob: No, but I charge for it. Aaron: There we go. Very, very cool. What

  • are the secrets? This next image I want talk about here is this Milagro tequila.

  • Rob: Yes. Aaron: Fire in it.

  • Rob: Yes. Aaron: This bottle is amazing. Is that supposed

  • to be agave in there? Rob: Yes, it's actually the piña plant and

  • it's hand blown into this particular bottle. They're really beautiful bottles and no two

  • bottles are the same. That's something that's interesting about my end of the business and

  • one of the reasons I like it. Even though a Budweiser bottle is made in the same mold,

  • one after the next, they're all blown into molds and they're very, very identical in

  • their appearance. They're not because glass has a property of itself, so each bottle with

  • very a little bit. You get some different qualities to it and that keeps me interested

  • because there's always a little bit of a challenge that comes out of shooting a bottle. You can

  • be working on one bottle and switch another beer bottle into that same place and it doesn't

  • exactly look the same. Aaron: That's really cool.

  • Rob: It's because it's glass. It keeps you on your toes and keeps you thinking. This

  • is a great example that is really interesting in terms of the glass, what's going on with

  • it. It's very complex, lots of faucets, lots of ways to catch light, reflect light, throw

  • light, and create problems for you. This one was a challenge. We wanted to show the reposado

  • bottle with both fire and water, get this reflective quality and have it very, very

  • dark and mystical, yet still be luminous because the product can't die. This is another example

  • of something that was shot in multiple stages. We shot for the neck and the cap, to get that

  • in one capture. We shot for the base label, to get that in another capture. We shot the

  • fire and that's probably … I'm going to say that's three different captures. Then,

  • the water is actually shot with the fire. It's a tray that we painted black, just put

  • in an 1/8 of an inch of water and used a little bit of a can of air to make the ripple while

  • the fire was going, and then we capture it. The reflections of the fire are actually real

  • and they are consistent with what's going on with the actually fire itself.

  • Aaron: Exactly. Wow. Every thing in this piece … a lot of what we do on Phlern is compositing

  • and talking about special effects and things like that. This is a composite, but every

  • piece is real. Rob: It is real, yes.

  • Aaron: The fire was photographed? The water was photographed?

  • Rob: Yes, the fire was photographed. Here's a little secret for the fire, that's something

  • that's really dangerous and hard to control. Rubber cement. Rubber cement is very flammable,

  • but it's also very controllable. Aaron: Oh, no way.

  • Rob: I had this tray; it's a baker's tray. Aaron: Watch out what you tell me because

  • I'm going to be putting rubber cement on people now.

  • Rob: Don't light anybody on fire though, man. Aaron: I have come close.

  • Rob: This stuff … yes, that's bad. Rubber cement is very flammable, so what we did is,

  • had this tray that was spray painted black and put rubber cement on the back of it, they

  • tray was filled with water, just the back edge had that rubber cement, we'd light it

  • and then hit the water with the can of air (click click click) and that's how we would

  • get this. Aaron: Wow.

  • Rob: You just do it again, and again, and make sure you have lots of fire extinguishers

  • close by. Aaron: Right.

  • Rob: Yes, you want to be safe. Aaron: That's awesome. It really does sounds

  • like a lot of fun. Rob: Oh, it's a ton of fun. This business

  • is a ton of fun. It's a lot of experimentation, it's a lot of problem solving, it's a lot

  • of playing around, and figuring stuff out. It's amazing.

  • Aaron: Yes. Rob: You get to make artwork, you get to use

  • amazing tools, amazing toys, amazing lighting, and I don't want to use the word play, but

  • you get to play and experiment and somebody pays you for it. It's kind of a great business

  • to be in. Aaron: It's pretty awesome.

  • Rob: I wouldn't do anything else, it's awesome. Aaron: Yes, it's like, all right how are we

  • going to put fire behind this bottle? Have the fire reflect in the bottle on water on

  • black, still get details in the label? Rob: Yes, and not overpower, not be a focal

  • point … Aaron: Exactly.

  • Rob: It's all got to be complimentary, they have to work in unison and it's getting all

  • these parts figured out, but then getting them to work together and play together in

  • a solid visual image. Aaron: Yes. Very, very cool and it really

  • does sound like you're building multiple pieces of a puzzle and when it all comes together,

  • it's like, wow that's what [cross talk 00:22:16] …

  • Rob: Now, back in the film day, this would be really hard to do.

  • Aaron: Oh, yes I can image. Rob: This would be really hard to do. You

  • would have to do it in one take and it would take a long time to craft that. You'd have

  • to have … Aaron: But it could be done?

  • Rob: Yes, it could be done, but that image would probably take … that would be a three

  • day image. I don't doubt that for a second and it would take a lot of testing, sending

  • film to the lab, getting it back, looking at it, figuring out what's wrong, why it's

  • not working, doing it again, doing it again. There'd be a lot of repetition in this. That's

  • where digital is really nice. Aaron: I like digital.

  • Rob: I know you do. Probably because you've never tried film, right?

  • Aaron: I don't know. Chris keeps trying to get me to shoot a roll of film for Phlern

  • and I'm just like, "It's a bad idea. You're going to get a roll back, it's going to be

  • black, but I'll do it." Rob: No, it's a right of passage. You should

  • know how to do it. Aaron: You're right; I should know how to

  • do it. I'm part of the younger generation, but you're completely right. I do feel like

  • there's a lot of things that I missed out by not have shot on film. I tend to overshoot

  • for one. I tend to … Rob: Well, you know what? That can happen

  • in film, too, and it gets hard to edit. It also gets more expensive when you have roll

  • after roll after roll. Aaron: Right.

  • Rob: I guess we should put this in context because I feel very privileged that I grew

  • up in an era with film and I have that knowledge base, but I never did a digerotype. I don't

  • feel that I've missed out on the photographic process not having done that or I never had

  • a wagon with glass plates in it that a mule was pulling out in the West to create my images.

  • Aaron: Good point. Rob: In that sense, maybe it's not so horrible

  • that you used the technology that's available. Aaron: The technology that's available at

  • the time? Rob: It's a tool. We've had this argument

  • for a long time with a lot of people about Photoshop when it came out. Is it cheating?

  • A lot of people are, "No, it's cheating." But it's a tool. It's a tool to help you create

  • what you create. Period. The technology changes; the tools change.

  • Aaron: Different people use the tools in different ways.

  • Rob: Yes. Aaron: Some people are more successful. You

  • can hand me a paintbrush, but I'm not going to paint anything that you'd hand in your

  • house, like some other people, the Picassos out there. Very good point, yes. Everything

  • around us is just like you said, it's all tools and quite frankly, if you gave me all

  • the tools of your studio, there's no way I would produce these images. That's one of

  • the reasons why I really love sharing knowledge is because I think that with the knowledge,

  • people can then go on to use it to create something good, but I don't ever feel like

  • just giving away a hint here or there. It's not going to replace [cross talk 00:24:55].

  • Rob: No, it's not going to replace experience. Quite frankly, even though a lot of us use

  • the same thing, a lot of us use that same stuff to make the ice chips; we don't do it

  • in the same manner. Aaron: Right.

  • Rob: You can talk to assistants who have worked for three or four of photographers that are

  • doing that style of photography, meaning beer, slushed beer, and you'll find that we all

  • have different approaches. We are comfortable with the things that we know work, and we

  • have our own workflow, and they differ completely from another studio.

  • Aaron: That's good. That's what sets us all apart.

  • Rob: It's right for you and I think that's one of the keys is finding what's right for

  • you. Aaron: Yes, and we talked about that in the

  • first part of the interview. Be yourself. If it feels good to you, if this is how you

  • want to go then don't try to photograph other people's art, be yourself. Let's talk about

  • this image because it's just really hard. I'm trying to figure out how you did the lighting

  • and how you brought everything together. First of all, we're working with a very shallow

  • depth of field here, which I don't see a lot with beverages. I see it a little bit more

  • with food. Rob: That's actually one of my signatures

  • though, is shallow depth of field. I tend to do that with everything across the board.

  • There are times where you obviously can't. Aaron: Right.

  • Rob: If something has to be in complete focus, but shallow depth of field has always been

  • one of my hallmarks without question. This job was tough. This was done for the movie

  • Sex in the City 2 and it was done in conjunction with Skyy Vodka, where they had a partnership

  • and the particular creator was charged with coming up with a unique drink for each of

  • the characters. The four ladies, plus Mr. Big, so we had five drinks and we were doing

  • them all with people. The human element is really important in both food and beverage

  • photography. It doesn't happen a ton. The image next to it has nobody in it.

  • Aaron: Exactly. Rob: This has a very different feel. This

  • one was kind of a nightmare job in that I was booked on the project, we had talked about

  • what we were going to do, I did the pre-lighting for it, I sent .jpegs to the ad agency the

  • night before the shoot with my pre-light, and they loved it, they were really happy

  • with it. A bit of a problem came in during the shoot day because the client had never

  • really signed off, in their mind, they never really signed off on the creative direction

  • and once they saw it, they weren't happy with it. We had to shift gears and come up with

  • a completely creative direction on the spot. When we initially going to do this, we were

  • only going to have hands, they were very minimal, it was a much more simplistic approach. Now,

  • we actually needed to see body parts, so we had … and we were shooting in St. Louis.

  • We had hand models come in from Chicago and we had clients coming in from different parts

  • of the country. We had a lot of people here with the clock running. We had to completely

  • shift gears, we had to both go out and get wardrobe. Luckily, right next door there was

  • a little boutique and I was friends with the owner and she let us raid her property. We

  • actually took fabric here that I had in the prop room, we made a dress, literally on a

  • woman out of fabric that we had here. A lot of shifting gears on the fly. We tried a couple

  • different directions before the client finally signed off on it and said okay this is what

  • you want. I think it was 4:00 PM in the afternoon before we got our first shot off and we had

  • five shots to do that day. Aaron: In one … in the day?

  • Rob: Yes. Aaron: Wow.

  • Rob: That brings a whole 'nother element in. Creative isn't going where it needs to be,

  • client's not happy, a lot of people on the payroll on this one, people have come in from

  • different parts of the country, a lot of money riding on it, and if it's a total loss, there's

  • a big problem. We had to shift gears very quickly. We had to do a couple different explorations

  • of creative styles before the client had hit the one that they liked. Then, we had to very

  • quickly be able to execute all five of those shots, talk with the client, know that there

  • was going to be overtime because it wasn't our issue.
Aaron: It's not, you're right,

  • exactly. Rob: We had had sign off. In fact, I did everything

  • that I could. I did a pre-light, I sent the images out, the art director had even responded,

  • "Love it, can't wait. Everything is going to be great for tomorrow." Everything went

  • in a different direction, so we had to talk to the client and say, "Okay, there's issues

  • here," right? In the creative, which means we're going to have some money issues and

  • then we had to get it done. We knuckled down, we got it done. I think we shot everything

  • by 8:00 PM at night, so we were able to compress that day down, but it was a lot of trial and

  • error in the early part of the day to get us to the point between 4:00 PM in the afternoon

  • and 8:00 PM at night, where we could do all five of those shots in four hours and knock

  • it out. Aaron: That's insane.

  • Rob: It was insane and that's a lot of pressure. That's why I'm saying there's no replacement

  • for experience. If I was new in this business at that time, I probably would've been barfing

  • in the bathroom under that pressure. Aaron: Right.

  • Rob: It was just a matter of okay … and I actually got to the point … the client

  • who didn't like the stuff wasn't here and the art director had been talking to them

  • through the phone and I got to the point where I said, "I need to be on the phone call with

  • them." This is really important for me because that telephone of going from one person to

  • the next, something gets lost in the translation. It was important for me to calmly say, "Hey,

  • let me be involved in this conversation, as well. Let me see if I can come up with some

  • of the solutions to the creative problem." Work our way through it, be calm, be rational,

  • be reasonable, and be there to help the client because at the end of the day, even though

  • there's a problem that's occurring, it's my problem to fix it and be polite about it and

  • be professional about it. Aaron: That communication is huge.

  • Rob: Yes. Aaron: A lot of people, I think, they're almost

  • afraid to say there's a problem, so they wait to the very end and it's like, "Oh, by the

  • way we need to charge more because we went over."

  • Rob: I think a lot of human nature fears conflict. People don't want conflict, they're afraid

  • it can escalate very quickly and tempers can flare. Really? We're problem solving. There

  • shouldn't be conflict; there should be solutions to problems.

  • Aaron: Right. Rob: That's where a good crew around really

  • comes in handy. The best producers are the producers who'll look at the project know

  • that something is going to go wrong. Something always … there's always a curve ball. I

  • personally work very well with the producers that come up and say, "Hey Rob, tell me what

  • you think. We've got this, this and this that we can do for the problem that I'm not going

  • to tell you about." Other producers will come up to you and say, "Okay, this is messed up

  • and it could go badly in this respect, or this respect, or this respect. What do you

  • want to fix it?" Very different approaches. Aaron: Very different approach.

  • Rob: The second person is tough to work with because they get everything in a tailspin.

  • The first person that comes to you and says, "Okay, here are a couple of solutions you

  • might want to think about. Here's the problem. What do you want to do?" It gives me the decision

  • as the job leader. It gives me the opportunity as a job leader to make a quick decision,

  • "This is what I want to do," and go down that road. That road maybe wrong, by the way, but

  • I'm being decisive and I'm doing it in a non-combative way to say, "Okay, let's try this. Let's make

  • it work." If it doesn't, all right, I'm going to shift gears and I'm going to figure out

  • another way to make it work. It's definitely a professional attitude.

  • Aaron: To be able to make a decision quickly and stick with it until you need to make another

  • decision? Rob: Not necessarily quickly. I think you

  • need to be decisive. I don't think you can just make a quick decision; it has to be an

  • informed decision. Aaron: Right.

  • Rob: You need to be able to talk with your client in a way that they know is not combative,

  • that you're trying to help them, that you're looking for answers, you're looking for them

  • to give you as much information as they possibly can for you to help guide the project in the

  • way that you think it's going to be most successful for them.

  • Aaron: Right. Rob: Because at the end of the day, this project

  • is for them. It's not for you. It may go in your book, you may sit down at a table and

  • tell somebody the stories about this image and how it came to be, but it's not for you.

  • Aaron: Right, you don't own the vodka brand. Rob: No, I don't own the vodka brand and that's

  • something that interests me, you think about, as an artist, you tend to get into this business

  • to make your art, but as a professional artist, you're making your art on somebody else's

  • nickel against a clock for an end result that isn't necessarily yours. That's something

  • to keep in mind, too. It's an interesting mindset.

  • Aaron: Yes, even I'm thinking of Renaissance painters. They had clients. They were painting

  • for the royal family. If the royal family didn't like the paintings they were fired.

  • Rob: Right, or beheaded, even worse. Aaron: Exactly. It's an age old issue that

  • artists face. It's like, yes you're creating great art, but at the end of the day, if someone

  • else is paying for that art, that's the person who has to be happy.

  • Rob: Yes, and it's weird to get your head around the fact that art is commerce because

  • a lot of people think of art as art, not art is commerce, but if you're going to make a

  • living on it, it is commerce. It's a commercial product that you got to sell.

  • Aaron: Yes, the exchange of both goods and services. This is your goods.

  • Rob: I hope it's the goods. Aaron: Very good and you're making other people

  • look good, as well. Let's just talk about a couple of the other images. This is a really

  • interesting image. The Triumph watch here. Rob: Yes, this is something I like talking

  • about because this is completely done for my book. I had this watch … I thought it

  • was really interesting, I bought it to shoot for the portfolio and I probably put it out

  • on set two or three times and I hated everything about it, didn't work, tried a couple different

  • approaches. It just didn't … none of the images were there, so I set it on the shelf

  • and just let it sit. I'd pull it out and try it, it wouldn't work. Sometimes that happens,

  • not often, but sometimes you just can't get something to click.

  • Aaron: Right. Rob: One day, it was nice summer day, I had

  • a yellow tomato in my lunch and I literally started pulling out my lunch and I saw the

  • yellow tomato, which was very orange. I'm like, "That's the color of the watch. That's

  • that graphic element that I need," so I pulled the watch out, got it off the shelf, wrapped

  • it around … it's just wrapped around a tomato. Sat down on the set, lit, bam. That was the

  • clean, simple graphic element I needed. It was what I needed to tie the background in

  • and it worked. The reason why I like talking about this, I tried several times to come

  • up with something that all failed and inspiration came to me in something …

  • Aaron: Your lunch? Rob: Yes, my lunch. What? I never would've

  • thought of that. It just hit me and that's one of the great things about being an artist.

  • Sometimes inspiration just hits you, don't know why, don't know from where, just wait

  • long enough, it'll come. Aaron: Right, as long as it's stirring in

  • your mind. Rob: As long as you've got something going

  • in there, yes. I didn't give up on it. I liked this watch; I thought there was something

  • interesting about it. I like shooting watches. This one just hadn't clicked yet and I needed

  • the right inspiration and it turned out to be something very simple and kicked it.

  • Aaron: It's interesting, too, because this was done personally.

  • Rob: Yes. Aaron: This is a personal project, but perhaps

  • doing this is going to inspire a shoot in the future. Maybe it already has, in which

  • you shot a different watch and you're like …

  • Rob: Yes, there's no question and if you look at the book, when you go through it, I think

  • it's important to have a mix of personal and client work. It's tough in the beginning you

  • have to go in with all personal work because you haven't had client stuff and clients don't

  • want you to come in just with client work. They want to see what you do, what your vision

  • is because you can go further when you don't have the parameters of a client or not necessarily

  • the client, if you don't have the parameters of a layout, you have to fit in this 11x14

  • crop or you have to fit something that's going to fit on the back of a bus or a casecard

  • or whatever. That can have a big hampering effect on what the creativity is. If you're

  • just shooting for your portfolio, there's kind of no limit and people want to see that.

  • It's really good to have that mix in your book or personal and client work.

  • Aaron: That's really good advice and I know that this is … you've been shooting for

  • over 20 years and this is not all the images you've ever taken?

  • Rob: Oh, God no. It's a weeding out. Aaron: Percentage of … what's that process

  • like for you in choosing the images that are ultimately going to make the book and how

  • many … this is awesome this octopus. How many … is there a number that you focus

  • on, between 20 and 50 images? Rob: 20 and 30 is a really good number. I

  • tend to go towards more toward the 30. I think what is really critical, absolutely critical

  • is to tell a story, to have a thread, to have something that moves people through this.

  • Some people will put only what they want to photograph in a portfolio and those in some

  • ways are the most successful portfolios because it really shows the client what you want to

  • do and then a lot of people will hire you based on that. A lot of clients really do

  • though, they need to see examples of client work.

  • Aaron: Right. Rob: It's important, to me it's important

  • to have that mix, but without question you have to have them engaged from the front image

  • to the back image. There has to be a way for their eye to go through this. There has to

  • be a way to stir emotion through them through the entire thing. That emotion, keep in mind,

  • can be wanting something. It's not just like, "Oh, man that guys is unbelievable, like,

  • "Look at this face." It can be like, "Ah, I want to buy that. Ooh, I'm thirsty." I love

  • it going in portfolio shoots and people are like, "Oh, it's only 11:00, I'm so hungry."

  • Aaron: Right. Rob: That's what I want.

  • Aaron: I hate octopus, but I want to eat one right now.

  • Rob: Some people are like, "God, that's so gross. I can't stop staring at it." That's

  • good, you're drawing them in, you grab their attention. You got to grab them, somehow you

  • got to grab them and suck them in. It's key, so the pagination, the way you put these images

  • together, I think about this stuff. I think about what is the very first image? How it's

  • going to look and then what happens on page 2 and 3, and how does page 3 then translate

  • to page 4? What people see here will have an effect on what they see here.

  • Aaron: Exactly. Rob: It's very well thought out.

  • Aaron: I noticed just a couple of things and I'm just going to point them out as I kind

  • of see. We've got complimentary colors working? Rob: Yes.

  • Aaron: I'm guessing that's on purpose? Rob: Yes, sometimes … I'm not going to say

  • that there's a formula. Aaron: Okay.

  • Rob: Because sometimes it's the emotion that's evoked by the two pieces side-by-side. Sometimes

  • it's pure color pallet. You don't know why two images necessarily work together and the

  • way I did this … this was a lengthy process. It took a few months and it happened in conjunction

  • with my new website, so I was trying images left and right and switching things around.

  • I printed everything out really small and cut them out and moved them around, put things

  • side-by-side. Then, I wound up printing them large and doing the same thing, putting them

  • side-by-side before I printed the final book. Aaron: Wow.

  • Rob: It was a lot of trial and error in terms of either this image actually worked well

  • with two or three images, but which one was the best for it.

  • Aaron: Okay. Rob: There's some experimentation that goes

  • with that and you do see different combinations in it from going through and looking one time

  • to the next, you can see different combinations and it's a matter of really trying to figure

  • out what has the best impact that's going to get you the most clients.

  • Aaron: Yes, and that's really interesting because it's not only the individual photos

  • that are the product that you're selling, it the compilation of all the photos together.

  • You're selling the whole book, too. Rob: The compilation of all those photos together

  • gives you your style. Aaron: Right.

  • Rob: An image or two here is an image or two. The book as a cohesive unit is your style.

  • Aaron: That's the quote of the day, right there.

  • Rob: All right, good. Aaron: The book … yes, your work as a whole

  • is your style. Rob: Yes, that is your style. That makes up

  • your style. One image does not make up your style.

  • Aaron: That's brilliant because I think a lot of people out there in year one and two

  • they're like, "What is my style? I got to create my style."

  • Rob: Right. Aaron: I think the answer's probably like

  • look at your work. That already is your style. Rob: Style is also fluid, it changes, like

  • if you look at my work from the early '90s to now, completely different.

  • Rob: Oh, yes totally different. Matter of fact, in the early '90s, too, it was super

  • saturated color and I had a very distinctive style. I had this multi-layered plexiglass

  • set and I would shoot colored lights up from the base through this white plexiglass and

  • I had product floating on clear plexiglass above it, so all the stuff was floating in

  • these fields of color and sometimes it was simple one color. Other times it was multiple

  • colors that were bled together down underneath with light, very complex stuff, super saturated,

  • completely blinked out … if you were to look at it now, it might give you epilepsy.

  • Aaron: That was big in the '80s. They would've loved that stuff.

  • Rob: It was huge. Aaron: Epilepsy, where can I get that? Where's

  • that drug, right? Rob: Crazy. It's interesting to see how your

  • style does change. It is a very fluid thing. It will change as you grow through the business,

  • there's no question. I don't know where I'll be in 15 or 20 years, what my style will look

  • like in comparison to this? I would think now, it would probably be pretty similar to

  • this because I've really settled into a groove. I've been in the business for a couple of

  • decades and I think I've really found my voice. I think it's very difficult for a young photographer

  • to find their voice in the first year or two. I think it's really a decade or two process

  • and once you've built that business and you've been going for a while, you've really found

  • a voice that's yours and it's fairly unique and that gives you room to explore some other

  • directions. Aaron: Is your voice a reaction to the times?

  • Let's say the difference between the '80s and '90s and today? The general styles have

  • changed [cross talk 00:42:48] … Rob: Oh, yes absolutely. I think that …

  • Aaron: Did you react to those? Rob: Sure, well you have to. Like I said,

  • during the '90s it was really colorful stuff, but still very shallow depth of field, tight

  • cropping … you can see a lot of my approach to that style is the same approach that I

  • have here even though it's much more open, and [inaudible 00:43:13], and very light,

  • and shallow. You'll see a lot of similarities even though the end result was completely

  • different. Yes, you have to react to the times, otherwise you will look dated, right?

  • Aaron: Right. Rob: It's interesting though, really successful

  • images will last through some serious years. You don't want to have stuff in your book,

  • necessarily that you did 10 years ago, unless it's a really enduring image that still grabs

  • people's attention and it's current and relevant with your material. Yes, you have to change

  • with the times, otherwise you're stagnant and people are going to leave you where they

  • last saw you. Aaron: Right.

  • Rob: Right? Aaron: "He's a product of the '90s."

  • Rob: Yes, you do that with people in high school. You tend to think of them as the way

  • they were in high school. Aaron: Totally.

  • Rob: They may have been a total dork and now he's running some major company and …

  • Aaron: Phlern.com. Rob: Yes.

  • Aaron: I was a dork, by the way. Rob: Perfect example.

  • Aaron: What's the oldest image in this book? Rob: Good question. I don't …

  • Aaron: Or just one that maybe pops out as like, "I shot this a long time ago."

  • Rob: That will lead to a quick look through here.

  • Aaron: No worries. I know I popped that one on you, but it was a reaction to what we were

  • just talking about there. Rob: There isn't a lot in this book that is

  • very old. I don't think there's much stuff in here that's older than four years at most.

  • Aaron: Okay. That's interesting, too, because …

  • Rob: Maybe … that's funny because I think it's actually this. That image is probably

  • five or six years old. Aaron: The latest image in your book is five

  • or six years old even though you've been shoot for 20 some years?

  • Rob: Yes, and this is probably five years old, too. I did that for Starbucks Tazo Tea.

  • That may be five years old, as well. Yes, I want to keep things current and I feel like

  • as I've been in the business longer, I get better.

  • Aaron: Right. Rob: I want to show more current work.

  • Aaron: You want to show the current better work?

  • Rob: Yes, without question. Aaron: Yes, it also shows that you're still

  • shooting. If you can come to a client meeting and you've got 10 new images in your book

  • and they're like, "I haven't seen this stuff." Rob: Yes, they like to know you're busy. They

  • like to know what you've been working on lately and they like to hear that you are active

  • with other clients and that you're still relevant. They don't really want to … "Oh, he's hasn't

  • shot anything in five years. Let me go spend my ad budget on him."

  • Aaron: Right. Rob: You want to show current work and it's

  • important. Aaron: In periods of downtime, because there

  • are ups and downs, do you focus more on personal work during those down times?

  • Rob: I photograph on creating … I concentrate on photographing more images, yes. Personal

  • work? I can't say that I do a ton of it. I think that I personally have a lot of commercial

  • end … insight for my images. I'm not going off and doing a bunch of work that I then

  • want to wind up in a gallery somewhere. Aaron: Right.

  • Rob: I don't have a big focus on creating images that I can have a gallery opening and

  • have all my friends come and they can talk about how great my artwork is. The images

  • that I tend to create are to get me more commercial work. Now, my kids are well documented. Hopefully,

  • my grandkids one day will be like, "Wow, look at these pictures of mom that grandpa took."

  • That tends to be a lot of my personal work, but the images that I do during my downtime,

  • we definitely concentrate on making stuff that has commercial viability that can be

  • saleable. Bottom line, it's got to be saleable. Aaron: In those down time because I know they

  • all come, what is your process? Do you look at what's out there currently and say, "Oh,

  • this is a really cool tread that's going on," or "What are these other successful people

  • doing?" Rob: Yes, you need to be looking through magazines

  • and looking at websites. Places like Behance and other places where people are putting

  • out work, but it's also really important … I do look at a lot of magazines. We get magazines,

  • we look through them, we tear them out, we put all the tear sheets in binders for inspiration.

  • I will very often do a screen grab of something I think is cool because there's something

  • about that image that will inspire me. I don't want to go and rip somebody off, but I do

  • find inspiration in other things. It can be photography, it can be painting, it can be

  • words, inspiration comes from many different places, but it's really important to look

  • at what other people are doing. They're your competitors, right? If you want to be in this

  • market? If you want to be a beverage photographer? You need to be looking at the beverage ads

  • that are out there. Find inspiration, find your own voice and go out and make some images.

  • Yes, we definitely spend time during our down time doing that.

  • Aaron: I do that all the time, whether I'm up or down.

  • Rob: We do, too, and quite honestly, I'm much better when I'm busier. I get a lot more done

  • when I'm busier. The down times are hard. When you've got time on your hands … it's

  • great to get the studio organized, it's great to get the filing done, it's really important

  • to have that down time and to work on portfolio images, without question. I personally work

  • better when there's more going on. Aaron: It's more exciting?

  • Rob: It's more exciting and it gets me more focused. I can concentrate better when I have

  • a bigger list of things to do. Aaron: Right, I think I've experienced that,

  • as well, and I think many artists are the same way. Like when you're feeling like you're

  • actually doing something, it's easier to feel like you can take on more and you can be productive

  • with the time that you have. Very cool. Last question I have is about your book in general,

  • is in seeing your work as a whole, going from one image to another, how much of it do you

  • see yourself in? It's a weird question that I'm trying to figure out. That's just not

  • even a question is it? Rob: What are you trying to say? It almost

  • seems like you're asking if I see myself in these images in some way?

  • Aaron: Yes. Rob: No. I see my style in these images. I

  • see my approach; I see my production value, what I bring to the table in these images

  • in that I'm hitting a mark for a client. Is this a reflection of me? I think is what you're

  • asking? Yes, it is. I don't look at this and I don't see this as these images are me. When

  • I look at a total studio, that's what I think is a reflection of me. The images from the

  • front to the back, what's on the walls, the furniture, the way I've laid this place out,

  • this is my creativity. I think I look at that as the whole and my studio is really and truly

  • a reflection of who I am as an artist. In that sense, yes, the work is a reflection,

  • but I don't look at it and say, "Ah, that's me."
Aaron: Right. That's a really interesting

  • point because this is your job and you take it very seriously and you love these photos,

  • but at the same time it sounds like you are fully aware that this is your job.

  • Rob: It's interesting the word passion is one of the most over used words in the world

  • particularly when it comes to art. "I'm passionate about photography, so I want to do it," but

  • it is a job and this is commercial work. I'm creating images for somebody else. They are

  • contracting with me; they are paying me money to create images for them. That's commerce,

  • that's a business, I've got to execute something and like I said before, it's not necessarily

  • for me. There's me in this and there's my approach, my vision, my style, but at the

  • end of the day it doesn't belong to me. Aaron: It doesn't right?

  • Rob: It's kind of weird. Aaron: It is very weird, but it's also wide

  • opening, too, because there are so many different avenues to take as a photographer and that's

  • one thing, I hope a lot of people are getting out of this, is that you're an amazing product

  • photographer, you are being commissioned to take these photos. I go a completely separate

  • way with my photography, other people go completely separate ways and I think it's eye opening

  • to see that within the gamut of photography you can make a profession in a million different

  • ways. Rob: You can. There are so many different

  • avenues in photography. There are different styles of photography, there are different

  • roles that you can play within a photo studio, it's a really unusual business and one of

  • the reasons why it's so unusual is because it's rarely the same day twice. You get to

  • come in and you get to do different things from one day to the next and solve different

  • problems for different clients. It's invigorating in that sense. I take great pride in what

  • I do, I really love it, I'm very happy with the images I create, but I'm also very conscious

  • about the production value. I take pride in making sure that we create a really good,

  • strong production flow for these images to come out, to make the client happy. It's cool.

  • Aaron: It's not luck? Rob: Oh, no. There are times when it's lucky,

  • but there's that old code about luck is 75% preparation, 25% perspiration or something

  • like that? Aaron: Right.

  • Rob: You've got to work into luck. You've got to be prepared so that if somebody does

  • give you an opportunity because you happen to meet them somewhere … my best friend

  • met his biggest client in Disneyland Europe changing their kids. They were just next to

  • each other changing their kids at a changing table, struck up a conversation and he became

  • his biggest client. Aaron: Wow.

  • Rob: That could be luck, but at the same time he was prepared to deliver the goods that

  • that client needed. That wasn't luck. Aaron: Good point.

  • Rob: That meeting was, but delivering the product wasn't luck, it was preparation on

  • his part. Aaron: That's a really good point, cool. I

  • think we'll end it there. Rob: All right.

  • Aaron: Rob, awesome, thanks so much. Rob: Thanks, man. I enjoyed the talk.

  • Aaron: It's been awesome. Loved the book, by the way.

  • Rob: Thank you, I appreciate that. Aaron: Thanks guys, for watching. I hope you

  • really enjoyed it and we're going to show you some more great things from Rob Grimm's

  • studio and he's going to show you guys a little bit about how he works. Look forward to that

  • coming soon. Thanks guys, I'll Phlern you later.

Aaron: Hey guys, welcome to Phlearn. My name is Aaron Nace. You can find me on Twitter

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