Name: 彼得-約瑟夫2017年6月對李營的完整採訪【時代運動】。 (Peter Joseph Full Interview with Lee Camp, June 2017 [ The Zeitgeist Movement ])
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… But before that I have one of the most important thinkers

which then spawned the Zeitgeist Movement,

which has hundreds of chapters and thousands of members around the world.

He also wrote and created a series called 'Culture in Decline'

and now he has a new and in my opinion incredibly important book out

Here is my conversation with my friend Peter Joseph.

Peter! thanks for being here. - Oh, my pleasure Lee, always a pleasure.

- So, I'm just going to jump straight in. We're going to get some of the basic,

basic structural stuff out of the way. When we grow up, as we're growing up,

And this religion is bigger than Christianity, it's bigger than Judaism,

And we're sold it every day of our lives and we're told it's good

and it makes everything right and it will solve the world's problems

and you just got to believe in it. What's wrong with that?

- Ahh, the faith in the invisible hand of the market

which eventually, like all religions, evolved into the

Orthodox intolerant view of neoliberalism.

So, you know it's very convenient to think

that there's some internal dynamic in our economy that's self-regulating -

that's the term - that there's an equilibrium to be found.

And what isn't talked about which I point out in this book

is for about 70 years, true economic theorists - micro economic theorists -

have sat there trying to formulate their equations, utilitarian equations,

beliefs about human behavior to figure out how equilibrium is generated,

because that's what the “invisible hand” implies,

that's what the stability is supposed to be.

- And then when we get to equilibrium it'll be stable. -Yeah.

There's an assumption and it's been prevailing, it's a mythology and guess what?

It doesn't exist. And they're the first to admit it.

There's whole books that have been written now, there is no equilibrium.

The only equilibrium that could be created involve variables that

literally these pure economists think are irrational and

have no place to begin with. So that's one of the

groundbreaking things no one talks about.

So it's not just “we can speculate” and “we can do this type of analysis” as done

say in the book or by other theorists that are working against market economics.

It's been well established that there's no equilibrium.

We have complete imbalance, we have poverty, we have all the externalities.

We have a general move towards disequilibrium through the entire system,

Of course you talk to a libertarian: “Ooh the state's now the enemy!”

They don't realize the dynamic, the synergy between the two historically.

And a whole bunch of things that I could spiral out of control and ramble,

- That's alright, your rambling's enjoyable.

And you can see the systems collapsing, kind of around our planet,

whether it's the acidifying of the oceans or-…

close to a billion people in poverty, they don't get their basic nutrition.

The system never formed itself, it's always been in a state of collapse.

There's the “ins” and the “outs.”

you're just ignored effectively by the theories of this system

which you're in; it's a negative externality.

That's an important term that people need to understand.

"Negative externalities" are things that the market doesn't recognize

So for example, poverty. What do we have? You have charity.

That's the only form of wealth redistribution that society accepts.

You can leave it up to the billionaire class to decide how they're going to take care of all the,

all this exhaust effectively that has come out of this system,

to try and correct it. Same goes for the fact [of]

massive global pollution, every life support system in decline.

A recent stat I just read, there will be more plastic in the ocean than fish, by 2050.

So how do you deal with that? You create all these NGOs

and all these people that are trying to do something outside of the market system

even though they have to be slightly within it.

I mean that's truly really what all of the NGOs and the NPOs and

grassroots organizations, the thousands and thousands of them, they keep multiplying.

They are there to clean up the disaster wake, that's left.

- And it's astounding to me that people don't really put that together to realize that

that's where the activist community needs to focus

and that's why the book is focused in the direction of those things.

they're not even really calculated in most of these equations.

So you see that a hamburger at McDonalds still cost a dollar to this day,

Meanwhile, if it calculated for all those externalities,

the pollution, everything else, the oil, the water used to raise the cow,

Sure, or the fact that they analyzed all the major corporations,

there was a study done about two years ago,

finding that if you took the negative externalities into account,

there's no profitability in any of these major corp[orations]

which effectively means there's no profitability across the whole of capitalism,

- All right, so I know we're moving fast here but

one of the keys to the market economy is debt,

and you say in your book that it's estimated that by 2060,

60% of all countries in the world will be bankrupt,

while the US alone will have a debt of 415% of GDP by 2050.

Now on a certain level debt is a customary fiction

and can be erased with the flick of a pen.

So I guess, people might be left feeling like, which is it?

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彼得-約瑟夫2017年6月對李營的完整採訪【時代運動】。 (Peter Joseph Full Interview with Lee Camp, June 2017 [ The Zeitgeist Movement ])

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